To be fair that wasn't the intention of the match at the time of the marriage Francis' eldest son was still alive - so Catherine was not expected to be Queen of France just Duchess of Orleans - the dauphin died three years after Catherine's marriage - however it was certainly considered that she was of relatively low birth for a French prince. She was also the niece of the Pope and her late mother had been French and heiress of the Tour d'Auvergne family - hence the attraction to the match. Noticeably he didn't offer the Pope the dauphin for her.
What if Henry VIII's children by his first three wives had had children/gotten married?
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
- Start date
As I said...she was considered of low birth for a French prince. Of course a girl like her isn't getting the dauphin/crown prince. Mary and Elizabeth, blood princesses, are getting future kings or nobody.
But they're not blood Princesses. Henry doesn't consider Mary legitimate, so he won't want a prince with powerful relatives for her, and nobody other than the English/possibly other Protestants considers Elizabeth legitimate, which means she's not getting a King/reigning Duke, at least not a powerful one. I did toy with Ferrara once, given Anne and Renee's childhood friendship, but I think someone like Barnaby Fitzpatrick is far more likely.
Could Henry, potentially, shut up the Pole/Plantagenet threat by marrying Mary into that? It'd remove a threat and, just in case anything DID happen to Edward, it'd make Mary's line more secure.
The Poles/Plantagenets will not accept a bastard wife and there aren't that many suitable candidates of an appropriate age
Elizabeth marrying in Scandinavia would certainly be something to see, though I'm personally unsure whether Eric of Sweden or Frederick II of Denmark is the more likely match. I can see Henry VIII preferring the Danish marriage, if push came to shove, given that Denmark is older and richer, with the Oldenburgs a more entrenched family. There's also more historical precedence for the marriage, since one of Henry V's sisters married a King of Denmark.
That said, Eric was apparently really eager for an English alliance, and the 'barely royal' Vasa family would probably be a more appropriate match for a princess of questionable legitimacy. It really depends on who is arranging the marriage, and when.
I also thought of a fun POD for the various German matches I'd been floating around: Henry's marriage to Anne of Cleves in 1540 somehow goes well, and she's able to convince Henry that marrying his daughters off to some German princes (and maybe even some of her relatives) would be a swell idea. Heck, her brother would actually a good age to marry Mary, and his OTL marriage(s) technically hadn't happened yet.
The Pole's never considered Mary as a bastard and, even in the 1530s, it was suggested that Mary and Reginald Pole would marry.
Simply let the planned triple marriage go through (Edward VI marries Juana of Spain, Mary marries Luiz of Portugal - by the 1540s he was sort of a nobody again, since Karl V had "lost interest" - and Elizabeth gets either Felipe II of Spain or João Manuel of Portugal). A fun way to make this happen would be that João Manuel dies after his parents stop havig kids but before he gets married. Then Maria Manuela dies in childbed with her only son (who dies as well). Karl V is minus his first grandson and João III has no surviving kids. Luiz marries Mary (since he needs to start making babies stat), Felipe marries Elizabeth and Juana, now that there's no cousin for her to wed, marries Edward. It cleans out the Habsburg-Aviz genepool AND saves the Tudors
Actually, Karl's objection was to the treatment of his aunt. Chapuys is not exactly a reliable witness because he had grown personally attached to KoA and Mary, so he didn't always go with what Karl wanted. As for Karl and Henry's relationship, it was basically for that very reason that Henry declined Philipp's suit - Phil wanted to stand for emperor and was counting on English backing to do so, something whic would be solidifed through a marriage to Mary. So he wasn't quite as romantic as all that.
Why Protestant? All the candidates taken seriously for Edward were Catholic (Juana of Spain, Élisabeth de Valois and Mary, Queen of Scots).
Hell no. Jane is essentially the Protestant Bloody Mary
The Protestant version:
Mary marries either Philipp of Bavaria or Wilhelm of Cleves is less greedy and doesn't demand Calais as a dowry.
Elizabeth getd Johann Friedrich II of Saxony
Edward marries Mary, Queen of Scots.
The domestic version:
Mary marries the earl of Surrey (as Anne Boleyn originally intended)
Elizabeth marries Edward Courtenay
Edward marries Mary, Queen of Scots
I am pretty sure that would have the opposite effect. Such a marriage would reinforce the Poles' position and make them an even bigger thread for Henry VIII and Edward VI.
Why would Felipe or João Manuel marry Elizabeth? They were the Catholic heirs to respectively Spain and Portugal. She, ITTL, would only be a Protestant bastard with no crown.
For that, you probably need to prevent her being sent to France.
The matches were kicked around nearly continuously from 1537 until 1549 when the last combo - Mary to Karl V, Elizabeth to Ferdinand I and Edward to one of Ferdinand's daughters - was tried. And England was still, effectively, Catholic until somewhere in Elizabeth's reign.
that is probably likely, you're right. Although Erik may not be the ideal husband considering he later lost his mind
that's a good point, I had forgotten about them. The only concern was that Edward was raised extremely protestant, so any catholic wife he marries would need to be willing either to convert or ignore the fact that their children would be protestant as well
perhaps my soft spot for Mary and Elizabeth is showing obviously Henry wanted the highest titles for his daughters, but he might have to get over that I agree that Denmark and Sweden might be good for Elizabeth, however it might also be a good idea to keep the daughters close to home, i.e Mary wed the Duke of Surrey and Elizabeth to Edward Courtenay, as suggested before. Just in the event that Edward did die without sons (which of course, Henry wouldn't think possible, i'm sure he expected Edward would have a large brood of sons)
obviously Henry wanted the highest titles for his daughters, but he might have to get over that I agree that Denmark and Sweden might be good for Elizabeth, however it might also be a good idea to keep the daughters close to home, i.e Mary wed the Duke of Surrey and Elizabeth to Edward Courtenay, as suggested before. Just in the event that Edward did die without sons (which of course, Henry wouldn't think possible, i'm sure he expected Edward would have a large brood of sons)That is true. But having a competent wife like Elizabeth would probably help Eric later on down the road when he goes a bit bonkers, since she'd be able to 'take over' for him in some capacity (a la Margaret of Anjou). Wasn't he married to his mistress by that point OTL? Having a wife with a good head on her shoulders (and legitimate children) might be enough to save him--at least to the point where he doesn't get formally deposed.that is probably likely, you're right. Although Erik may not be the ideal husband considering he later lost his mind
Henry VIII consistently bet the farm on Edward (even before he was born!), so that's definitely his expectation, yes.
also true. I suppose it wouldn't be terrible if Elizabeth ended up de-facto ruler of Sweden
and it's not too far for England.yeah, didn't really work out for lil Ed there
maybe theres a way for him to survive long enough to have a few kids (either with Elisabeth, Juana or maybe Jane), but I worry that he would always be sickly and die young either way (just a bit older and hopefully with some sons, but then the inevitable regency would be put in place, and with two ambitious aunts, they may fight for the regency, given they're still alivefor Mary, either Philip, Luis of Portugal, or some other Spanish/Portuguese prince. Of all three children, she is probably the most likely to willingly marry an iberian prince since they're catholic and she was half-Spanish herself. Elizabeth and Edward would probably marry whoever their father arranges for them, but Elizabeth would be uncomfortable, to say the least, marrying a Spaniard giving her protestant 'sympathies'. So likely, Edward can marry a french or spanish princess, but Elizabeth might do better in a scandinavian/english match
I've decided Edward should just marry Jane Grey. Elisabeth of Valois is too young, while Juana of Spain is probably too catholic/Spanish. I feel like Henry would prefer Edward marry an English cousin. As for Mary, I'm still stuck between Luis of Portugal and Philip of Palatinate. Elizabeth can marry Erik of Sweden or Frederick of Denmark, which I'm also still undecided on
is it possible for Henry to be less stingy about Mary marrying Philip? (I know, it's Henry, but maybe he can be placated )
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