Was there any possible to have a Deutschized Denmark in the Middle Ages?

As the title said.

"Deutschized" is to distinguish it from "Germanization". Which means Danes were assimilated into German language, culture and identity.

What changes would brought to the history of HRE and Scandinavia later?
 
As the title said.

"Deutschized" is to distinguish it from "Germanization". Which means Danes were assimilated into German language, culture and identity.

What changes would brought to the history of HRE and Scandinavia later?
The weird term aside, I do think that it should be possible in theory, Low German already had a massive impact on North Germanic languages, the question is how you get a North German state to conquer its way northwards
 
The weird term aside, I do think that it should be possible in theory, Low German already had a massive impact on North Germanic languages, the question is how you get a North German state to conquer its way northwards
I mean if Germany didnt have to deal with Italy, it would naturally want to control the Baltic sea and eastern Europe, and jutland (and even the sjealand archipelago) could be seen as securing it.
 
The weird term aside, I do think that it should be possible in theory, Low German already had a massive impact on North Germanic languages, the question is how you get a North German state to conquer its way northwards
I used this term is because using "Germanization" would make one confused "Isn't Denmark already a Germanic Nation?"
 
The weird term aside, I do think that it should be possible in theory, Low German already had a massive impact on North Germanic languages, the question is how you get a North German state to conquer its way northwards
I'd go with East Francia. It did a fair bit of conquering around the late 800s, was the first "German" state, and if it leads to the successor Germany's also claiming Denmark would give 1200 years worth of assimilation. There would certainly be a lot of butterflies if you set the POD back in the 800s.
 
‘The Kingless times’ (1332-1340) North German holsteiners, Hanseatic merchants and other north German lords ruled the entire kingdom. The Danes were subjected to German law, it is around this period where much of the old Viking tradition which had carried on so far throughout the middle ages are put to an end, at least for the most part.
If Valdemar IV had simply died in his exodus, we could likely have seen an almost complete assimilation by the end of the century.
 
‘The Kingless times’ (1332-1340) North German holsteiners, Hanseatic merchants and other north German lords ruled the entire kingdom. The Danes were subjected to German law, it is around this period where much of the old Viking tradition which had carried on so far throughout the middle ages are put to an end, at least for the most part.
If Valdemar IV had simply died in his exodus, we could likely have seen an almost complete assimilation by the end of the century.
Would it be enough to prevent the assassination of Count Gerhard? Or was his position too untenable even by that point?
 
Would it be enough to prevent the assassination of Count Gerhard? Or was his position too untenable even by that point?
Whether or not he died wasn’t necessarily key, even if he died his son ‘Iron’ Heinrich was a capable commander and warrior. Danish revolts had erupted since 1329, but had all been crushed, besides 1329-1332 (Christopher II reclaimed the throne), after Gerhard crushed both Christopher, then Eric and Otto (sons of the aforementioned), the danish nobility was subdued completely for the 3 years up until 1340.
The main reason a Valdemar IV came to power was due to German infighting, characteristically Valdemar likely fanned the fears of the Hansa and Johan the Mild - thus to secure trade (for the hansa) and prevent Rendsburger dominance (for Johan) - he was made king.
In my estimation it is very likely that the Dane’s could have been partially assimilated into the German culture - especially since they were so similar. So if the Rendsburger line of Holstein, could successfully secure trade, then ally with Mecklenburg and partition Johan the Milds realm (Rendsburg unifying Holstein, Mecklenburg receiving Zealand) Denmark would be more or less assimilated into the HRE by the turn of the century.
Denmarks history would likely be eerily similar to that of the Lowcountries. Denmark would be a region where territory would often change hands, and the region would be packed full of fortresses along the fjords and isles, which would be contested by the regional and later great powers of the Baltic.
 
partially assimilated
Mostly assimilated, they would be a reverse of the Dutch, where the norms and culture is relatively similar to the Germans, but the language is still distinct. I doubt the danish would be distinct in the least, but I however do believe that norse culture has proven impressively resilient to time, so it would likely still have some distinctions from the other German cultures.
 
If Charlemagne never conquers Saxony, and it develops into something akin to a fourth Scandinavian state, this might later get linked to Denmark in a dynastic union.
 
I think that if Luther had chosen to written his Bible in Low German, there would have been a good chance the Scandinavians would simply have used it instead of making their own Bibles, the result would have been the linguistic assimilation of the East Scandinavians.
 
there would have been a good chance the Scandinavians would simply have used it instead of making their own Bibles, the result would have been the linguistic assimilation of the East Scandinavians.
Are we sure that the use of a Low German Bible would have facilitated a linguistic transformation on that scale? Do we have any historical examples of this happening? Why would nobody bother with translating into Scandinavian languages? Wouldn't that be far easier than adopting Low German, especially outside of educated urbanites?
 
Are we sure that the use of a Low German Bible would have facilitated a linguistic transformation on that scale? Do we have any historical examples of this happening? Why would nobody bother with translating into Scandinavian languages? Wouldn't that be far easier than adopting Low German, especially outside of educated urbanites?

Low German was widely used as a Lingua Franca in the Baltic, and it is closely to Scandinavian, enough that Danish was widely believed to be a dialect of it until the 18th century.
 
Low German was widely used as a Lingua Franca in the Baltic, and it is closely to Scandinavian, enough that Danish was widely believed to be a dialect of it until the 18th century.
A lingua franca among traders, no? Because that is a different beast from the majority of the population of the Baltic (peasantry) to be all good little Plattdeutsch speakers who use it at home and among friends. At one point, French was a prestige language spoken in courts across Europe. That still doesn't logically lead to it easily supplanting native languages in any real way. Low German and Danish are not mutually intelligible languages, mistaken linguistic categorizations notwithstanding. There's also the fact that Protestant vernacular translations had a lot to do with politics. The Danes specifically were highly competitive with the Hanseatic League and German control over the Baltic and North Sea trades. Therefore, I can't easily see Protestant Danes being perfectly okay with adopting Low German to read their Bibles. I would think German political dominance over Jutland or beyond is needed for this to be adopted and even so it would be very slowly among the bulk of the population that aren't traders or urban elites. I think Denmark can be 'Deutschized' theoretically, but this seems to be too simple of a way to do it that doesn't strike me as plausible.
 
A lingua franca among traders, no? Because that is a different beast from the majority of the population of the Baltic (peasantry) to be all good little Plattdeutsch speakers who use it at home and among friends. At one point, French was a prestige language spoken in courts across Europe. That still doesn't logically lead to it easily supplanting native languages in any real way. Low German and Danish are not mutually intelligible languages, mistaken linguistic categorizations notwithstanding. There's also the fact that Protestant vernacular translations had a lot to do with politics. The Danes specifically were highly competitive with the Hanseatic League and German control over the Baltic and North Sea trades. Therefore, I can't easily see Protestant Danes being perfectly okay with adopting Low German to read their Bibles. I would think German political dominance over Jutland or beyond is needed for this to be adopted and even so it would be very slowly among the bulk of the population that aren't traders or urban elites. I think Denmark can be 'Deutschized' theoretically, but this seems to be too simple of a way to do it that doesn't strike me as plausible.

Danes and other Scandinavian are coastal people, while not all Danes spoke other languages it was common for people to speak Low German.
 
Danes and other Scandinavian are coastal people
Yes - what is this a rebuttal to?
while not all Danes spoke other languages it was common for people to speak Low German.
Okay, but how does this translate at all to what you are proposing? Telling me that some of the upper rungs of society spoke Low German through trade connections does nothing to argue that somehow a different Bible translate will go unchallenged in Denmark. Especially for centuries and would somehow slowly lead to the peasantry abandoning their traditional language in favor of one that is not mutually intelligible with the one they speak. I'm no great expert, but my instincts tell me that most peasants didn't also speak Low German, and the 'people' you refer to are urban dwelling people who travel and have connections with influential North German trading houses and shipping lanes. The Danish nobility and monarchy, which has a vested interest in preserving a sense of 'Danishness' in contrast to some form of 'Plattdeutschness', also wouldn't just go along with that process because of a Bible translation. I see no reason why translations would not just pop up in the vernacular. It did almost everywhere else in Europe where Bibles were being produced in the vernacular at this time.

Even if we accept uncritically that it was common for people to know some Low German, those interactions tend to result in the mixing of language features rather than the eradication of one in favor of another. Petuh is a good example where Danish dialects and Low German ones met around Flensburg. The Danish wasn't 'Deutschized', it became mixed up with elements of both. Languages get subsumed through political dominance and colonization, as Schleswigsch demonstrates. So without serious political changes, you won't get one to just utterly replace another because of Bible translations.
 
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Yes - what is this a rebuttal to?

Okay, but how does this translate at all with what you are proposing? Telling me that some of the upper rungs of society spoke Low German through trade connections does nothing to argue that somehow a different Bible translate will go unchallenged in Denmark for centuries and slowly lead to the peasantry abandoning their traditional language in favor of one that is not mutually intelligible with the one they speak. And that the Danish nobility and monarchy, which has a vested interest in preserving a sense of 'Danishness' in contrast to some form of 'Plattdeutschness', will just go along with that process because of a Bible translation. I see no reason why translations would not just pop up in the vernacular. It did almost everywhere else in Europe where Bibles were being produced in the vernacular at this time.

Modern Danish and Norwegian are based on the Danish dialect the first Danish Bible is written in. The reason the Bible was translated into Danish was not because some kind of proto-nationalism, which we can see in that it was not the only Church language of the Danish realm. It was solely translated because Danes didn't understand the High Saxon dialect Luther's Bible was written in. If Luther had written it in Low German [1], a Danish Bible is unlikely to have been seen as necessary. We can see the sam in the Danish realm where Luther's Bible was used in regions where standard Danish wasn't understood and new Bibles was made where neither High Saxon nor Standard Danish were understood. The Danish king had little interest in upkeeping a separate Danish versus Low German identity, as identities were far more regional at the time, which we can see in Brandenburgian nobility finding the Pomeranians as alien as the Poles.

[1] Which would have made sense, as it was a widely spoken Lingua Franca at the time.
 
I think that if Luther had chosen to written his Bible in Low German, there would have been a good chance the Scandinavians would simply have used it instead of making their own Bibles, the result would have been the linguistic assimilation of the East Scandinavians.
I doubt it, Danish bibles didn’t lead to the end of a Norwegian language or identity, Swedish bibles didn’t lead to the end of Finnish.
 
I doubt it, Danish bibles didn’t lead to the end of a Norwegian language or identity, Swedish bibles didn’t lead to the end of Finnish.

The Finns used Finnish Bibles, as for Norwegians, the vast majority of Norwegians speak Danish today and a minority speak Norwegian with almost the entire vocabulary replaced with Danish vocabulary.
 
The Finns used Finnish Bible
So why wouldn’t Danish, Norwegian and Swedish bibles be made even if the state espouses low German ones?

as for Norwegians, the vast majority of Norwegians speak Danish today and a minority speak Norwegian with almost the entire vocabulary replaced with Danish vocabulary.
Didn’t eliminate the idea of Norwegian identity or Norwegian language. As the saying goes, a language is a dialect with an army. If there’s independent Nordic states I find it highly likely that there will be separate languages for these states - if you want to make the Danes German you’ll need German political domination.
 
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