Again.
Remember, they went through the exact same thing in WW1 and did not exactly like it.
It happening a second time? Not gonna go down well.
UK offer to Ireland 1940
- Thread starter sparky42
- Start date
Remember, they went through the exact same thing in WW1 and did not exactly like it.
It happening a second time? Not gonna go down well.
Well, it'd probably be mitigated somewhat this time round after Irish soldiers see their first concentration camp and the news gets back home. There won't be the idea of the war being 'for nothing' when it becomes known what the Nazis were doing.
But there would definitely still be bitterness for sure.
They gain territory from the North (something of a gypsy's blessing but none the less there are territorial gains), they get a Council of Ireland and a lot of joint authority bodies with NI (I'm coming to those), they get Marshall Aid and a few US bases, they get to join NATO, they get a lot of investment and relaxation of tariffs that they didn’t get OTL. And anti-British sentiment is going to be ameliorated a bit, particularly in Dublin and Drogheda by planes from Aldergrove coming down to help defend against German bombers. It's an ATL remember. The Germans will kill more people in 1940 and 1941 than the British killed in 1916-23 if Belfast's experience is anything to go by.
Yeah, in '44-45. It's currently what, 40? Years in the future is not gonna really sound well to them. Especially since this is right about the time the Empire suffered some major body blows. Meaning more casualties.
Well yeah but in 40 there'd still be the thought 'we might still get the North back after this'.
Yeah... That's kind of why I've stopped doing the political updates. It all gets a bit messy and gloomy.
What's the matter? Don’t you like getting (bits of) the North back?
Beginning to feel like no one wants "us". Not me, exactly. Channeling grandad here.
Tír Eoín go bragh! You're now entering the People's Republic of Tyrone...
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I think that for most southern nationalists it would be seen as a rather poor return, even if in retrospect hopes of reunification based on the British offer were always rather optimistic.
I mean, if a proper Council of Ireland got set up it'd at least lay the ground for potential reunification down the road.
1942
For the Irish Navy, 1942 marked what many considered the first year of full naval operations, the combination of new recruits being fast tracked through the new training systems and the continued "loaning" of specialists and senior officers from the Royal Navy having eased the manpower shortages of 1941, which allowed for the commissioning of the first of the major units of the wartime Navy, the Flower Class Corvettes.
There had been significant debate within Government and between London and Dublin over what the path for the Navy should be, with some within the Admiralty pushing for the selection of the new Emergency destroyers that were entering service, and pushing for deployment into the Mediterranean to join the MTB squadron and the rest of the IEF.
However in Dublin the suggestion of destroyers was met with significant resistance from both GHQ and the Government, for the Government a major issue was concerns about the political and public fallout of any loss of one of these units, given the still relatively small size of the Navy, along with as ever the stance of Finance over the procurement and running costs of the destroyers, there was also the view that given the position in the Approaches the focus should be on the Battle of the Atlantic with the entry of the US into the War. For GHQ the main debate was between the greater capabilities of the destroyers compared to the ease of supporting the Corvettes.
In the end the decision came was made for the Flowers, and 6 entered service over 1942, the LÉ Maev, Macha, Cliona, Grainne, Banba and Fola. These Corvettes were to be the backbone of the Navy for much of the rest of the war with most of the Irish officers and crew learning their trade on the Flowers, even with the further growth of the Navy. As the entered service throughout 1942 and the rest of the war a fierce rivalry existed between the ships companies over their records, started after Macha claimed the first U boat kill, something hotly contested by the Maev.
For the MTB Flotilla's, 1942 so further development, with the success of the First Flotilla, the decision was made that the Second would be deployed to the English Channel, while the newly formed Third would remain in Ireland to handle coastal defence and port security operations. The First Flotilla meanwhile continued to operate in the Mediterranean with the rest of the IEF and alongside the Royal Navy, much like the Air Corps, the Flotilla pushed hard to be seen as "equal" to that of the "Brits", which led to the famous quote from Admiral Cunningham of "They are Utterly Mad Bastards, but they are on our side", after one of the more intense engagements of the unit during the fall of Tobruk. Much like the rest of the IEF, the utterly alien environment they found themselves in did much to catch the imagination of the Irish public, helped in no small measure by Government Propaganda of their operations, however an unforeseen result of this was the tension between the Flotilla's as the "Forgotten Second" oftern felt overshadowed by the attention given to the First, even with the intense combat of the English Channel.
The last footnote for the Navy came in December 1942, as the Muirchú still operating with the rest of the Trawlers went missing off the West Coast, after days of searches she was considered sunk with the discovery of Wreckage washed up on the Inis Mór in the Aran islands. It was only post War that it was discovered that she had been the victim of a U boat encounter, though there was plenty of mixed reaction within the Navy and public to the sinking of the Helga.
For the Irish Navy, 1942 marked what many considered the first year of full naval operations, the combination of new recruits being fast tracked through the new training systems and the continued "loaning" of specialists and senior officers from the Royal Navy having eased the manpower shortages of 1941, which allowed for the commissioning of the first of the major units of the wartime Navy, the Flower Class Corvettes.
There had been significant debate within Government and between London and Dublin over what the path for the Navy should be, with some within the Admiralty pushing for the selection of the new Emergency destroyers that were entering service, and pushing for deployment into the Mediterranean to join the MTB squadron and the rest of the IEF.
However in Dublin the suggestion of destroyers was met with significant resistance from both GHQ and the Government, for the Government a major issue was concerns about the political and public fallout of any loss of one of these units, given the still relatively small size of the Navy, along with as ever the stance of Finance over the procurement and running costs of the destroyers, there was also the view that given the position in the Approaches the focus should be on the Battle of the Atlantic with the entry of the US into the War. For GHQ the main debate was between the greater capabilities of the destroyers compared to the ease of supporting the Corvettes.
In the end the decision came was made for the Flowers, and 6 entered service over 1942, the LÉ Maev, Macha, Cliona, Grainne, Banba and Fola. These Corvettes were to be the backbone of the Navy for much of the rest of the war with most of the Irish officers and crew learning their trade on the Flowers, even with the further growth of the Navy. As the entered service throughout 1942 and the rest of the war a fierce rivalry existed between the ships companies over their records, started after Macha claimed the first U boat kill, something hotly contested by the Maev.
For the MTB Flotilla's, 1942 so further development, with the success of the First Flotilla, the decision was made that the Second would be deployed to the English Channel, while the newly formed Third would remain in Ireland to handle coastal defence and port security operations. The First Flotilla meanwhile continued to operate in the Mediterranean with the rest of the IEF and alongside the Royal Navy, much like the Air Corps, the Flotilla pushed hard to be seen as "equal" to that of the "Brits", which led to the famous quote from Admiral Cunningham of "They are Utterly Mad Bastards, but they are on our side", after one of the more intense engagements of the unit during the fall of Tobruk. Much like the rest of the IEF, the utterly alien environment they found themselves in did much to catch the imagination of the Irish public, helped in no small measure by Government Propaganda of their operations, however an unforeseen result of this was the tension between the Flotilla's as the "Forgotten Second" oftern felt overshadowed by the attention given to the First, even with the intense combat of the English Channel.
The last footnote for the Navy came in December 1942, as the Muirchú still operating with the rest of the Trawlers went missing off the West Coast, after days of searches she was considered sunk with the discovery of Wreckage washed up on the Inis Mór in the Aran islands. It was only post War that it was discovered that she had been the victim of a U boat encounter, though there was plenty of mixed reaction within the Navy and public to the sinking of the Helga.
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Historically the Irish worked supporting the UK in codebreaking, so there could be more development in that area by G2:
Great work! Good to finally have some real warships, even if they are only corvettes.
("Utterly mad bastards" indeed!)
In terms of post war, you are dealing with a massively different Ireland at this stage even without the question of NI. You have a nation whose infrastructure has likely been supercharged by Wartime needs with road, rail, port and airport infrastructure all significantly improved years if not decades before OTL, you have significant changes to Irish culture, between a likely explosion of women in the workforce, to perhaps a jump of Europeans staying post war, all adding up to a huge changes from OTL.
In terms of NATO, don't forget Dev OTL was talking to the US about some sort of US-Ireland agreement post war, in this with active involvement in WW2, I wouldn't think NATO would be off limits from the start.
In terms of NATO, don't forget Dev OTL was talking to the US about some sort of US-Ireland agreement post war, in this with active involvement in WW2, I wouldn't think NATO would be off limits from the start.
I toyed with the idea of a destroyer or two, but I really couldn't see it as a "natural" growth for such a new service even with the backing of the RN.Great work! Good to finally have some real warships, even if they are only corvettes.
("Utterly mad bastards" indeed!)
Maybe next year...
This is honestly kind of a lose-lose for everyone
UK has to deal with major political fallout from losing NI and Ireland doesn’t have too much to offer the allies in terms of manpower or resources aside from ports, so a lot of trouble for only a little benefit
Ireland now has thousands of angry unionists within its borders ready to start the troubles a couple decades early and becomes a target for the Luftwaffe
And the mostly unionist NI gets lumped in with a country it wants nothing to do with
The idea of Ireland joining the war is an interesting one, but trading off Ulster in exchange for joining the allies isn’t the way to make it happen. I think you’d have to have someone other than De Valera in charge to make it happen, or a strike on neutral Ireland by the Nazis forcing them in
UK has to deal with major political fallout from losing NI and Ireland doesn’t have too much to offer the allies in terms of manpower or resources aside from ports, so a lot of trouble for only a little benefit
Ireland now has thousands of angry unionists within its borders ready to start the troubles a couple decades early and becomes a target for the Luftwaffe
And the mostly unionist NI gets lumped in with a country it wants nothing to do with
The idea of Ireland joining the war is an interesting one, but trading off Ulster in exchange for joining the allies isn’t the way to make it happen. I think you’d have to have someone other than De Valera in charge to make it happen, or a strike on neutral Ireland by the Nazis forcing them in
Honestly, if you all want my advice: Make a separate thread for all these entries, and have a different incident be the inciting one for Ireland's joining the second world war. I love the entries we have, but the general mood seems to be 'how do we reconcile NI and Ireland in the 1940s', and that's putting a damper on the whole thread because it's really hard, especially since not even 20 years ago there was the whole Irish Civil War.
@theg*ddam*hoi2fan in addition to Italy there's also the Matter of Spain....Thanks! The thought occurred to me, and I just went 'yeah, that needs to be explored...'
And yes
Historically Ireland had long connections to Spain, and Irish volunteers fought on both sides of the civil war, with Irish citizens imprisoned in Spain after the Nationalist victory (and more repatriated with British aid).
During the Second World War there was serious concern in Britain that Franco would formally join the Axis and various schemes were launched to prevent this possibility,. Enter Aileen O’Brien, described before WW2 started as a "first aid worker and honorary captain of the Spanish foreign legion", also a committed, hardline, Catholic (secretary of the ultra-Catholic "Black International" Pro-Deo organisation and also of the Irish Christian Front) with Fascist leanings. During the SCW she'd been active in the US propagandising for the Nationalists, pressuring FDR, raising money, speaking at numerous KoC venues and starting the occasional riot.
However during WW2 she was a contact for 'Alan Hillgarth' (George Jocelyn Evans) a British spy/novelist who was British Consul in Majorca and Naval attache (yes, him from Operation Mincemeat) who developed a scheme to use anti-Franco 'Traditionalists' to, potentially, launch coup if Franco threatened Gibraltar or entered the war; this was to be supported by to an “Independent Company” trained in Gibraltar and drawn from various units, and by “Sconces”, groups of Spainards trained by SOE in Britain for operations in Spain.
Now, the Irish connection. Ireland had, historically, three people operating in Spain.
Officially there was the Irish Minister to Spain, the DEA's least favourite diplomat, the fascinating Leo Kearney (a name to be mentioned with care in Iveagh House even in the 1990s).
Then there was Richard Hayes, librarian (director of the NLI) who was in Spain examining papers for the Irish Manuscripts Commission at the archives at Simancas in '43; naturally this was unconnected to his side job....
Then there was Captain Joseph Healy who worked for Dan Bryan at G2 (previously he was professor of Spanish at UCC) and was in Spain gathering information (nominally arranging for Irish aid to be supplied to refugees), specifically regarding Irish detainees but also generally. Met with Crofton of MI5 and discussed various matters (including talkativeness of sailors leaking information that was passed to Germany). Healey was accompanied by the head of Army medical services, a Colonel McKinney.
Now G2 suspected Kearney was overly close to Germany, especially since the release of Frank Ryan, but also because of his repeated contacts with Edmund Veesenmayer whom G2 knew dealt with Irish matters for the Abwehr. Healy's report reassured G2, if not DEA where Kearney was unpopular.
Also involved was Don Gomez-Beare, actually not Spanish but English and was naval attache at the British embassy. More importantly he worked for British naval intelligence.
Curiously, and seemingly at the request of Colonel McKinney most of the reports have evaporated from the G2 section of the Military Archives; there is a note that the colonel "wishes that the complete history of the mission be never generally known"......
I have no idea how this would pan out with Ireland a belligerent, but there's scope for something to happen in Spain.
Nick P
Donor
The Flower class corvettes were based on a pre-war fishing boat design from Middlesbrough. This leads nicely to another angle to consider - the trawlers. From 1939 several hundred fishing boats were commandeered by the Royal Navy for light duties, along with their crews. They certainly proved their worth.
These included mine sweeping, mine laying, anti-submarine patrols, convoy escort, air defence, boom defence (harbour guard), Dunkirk/Narvik/Tobruk evacuations, delivering spies and special forces ashore and general training.
There is no reason for Ireland to not do the same around her harbours. This could be the start of the Irish Naval Reserve.