Twilight of the Valkyries: A 20 July Plot TL (Redux)

Stenz

Monthly Donor
The war crimes tribunals went pretty far afield with ex post facto prosecutions, but I think prosecutions post-mortem is a bridge too far for common law countries in 1946.
That is true. It was largely a joke anyways.
I meant more along the lines of, when questioned, witnesses would lay the responsibilities for the worst excesses of the Nazi regime on those already dead. Careful pre-trial culling of statements would allow for blame to be assigned to personalities who wouldn’t be able to answer back and at the same time, leave the current leadership of Germany relatively guilt-free.
 
I dont think conspiracy theorists (especially ones based on racism) need much logic to fester sadly. Those that want to deny the holocaust will do so regardless of facts or figures :(
Operation Valkyrie however was launched by German Wehrmacht officers and it's significantly hard for neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers to even attempt to explain away how ethnic Germans destroyed Nazi Germany.
 
Operation Valkyrie however was launched by German Wehrmacht officers and it's significantly hard for neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers to even attempt to explain away how ethnic Germans destroyed Nazi Germany.
"They were race traitors/secretly controlled by the Jewish-Bolsheviks/not really German anyway."
 
"They were race traitors/secretly controlled by the Jewish-Bolsheviks/not really German anyway."
The race traitors explanation is probably going to be the default explanation for neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers for the rather ethnic German Operation Valkyrie plotters.
 
Operation Valkyrie however was launched by German Wehrmacht officers and it's significantly hard for neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers to even attempt to explain away how ethnic Germans destroyed Nazi Germany.
More my point was if your'e crazy, nothing needs grounding in reality
 
Well given that the new German government is comprised of ex-Nazis and they decided to put a stop to the genocide of certain groups as well as taking out the Operation Valkyrie plotters it's going to be really hard for neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers to find away to handwave why these very people they admire just decided to stop the killings especially since no Jews were ever involved.
 
Well given that the new German government is comprised of ex-Nazis and they decided to put a stop to the genocide of certain groups as well as taking out the Operation Valkyrie plotters it's going to be really hard for neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers to find away to handwave why these very people they admire just decided to stop the killings especially since no Jews were ever involved.
The new German government isn't comprised of ex-Nazis. They were all loyal participants to the old Nazi regime, and a key part of their legitimacy is that they overthrew the Valkyrie plotters that dared to kill the Fuhrer himself. And while they are stopping the active killing of Jews, they are still very much using them for slave labor.

Neo-Nazis, anti-Semites, and Holocaust deniers will always find ways to handwave stuff that doesn't fit their worldview. Former SS officers that were at the Camps outright admitted the Holocaust happened and condemned those who denied it, but that hasn't stopped people from claiming it was made-up Jewish propaganda. They'll just argue the Valkyrie people were race traitors who were never really part of the Nazi regime, and the current government decided to temporarily halt the killings to have Jews and other undesirables provide slave labor for the Third Reich (with the understanding they'd restart the gas chambers once the war was won, of course). It doesn't matter if this logic has gaping holes in it, that's what they'll argue.
 
The new German government isn't comprised of ex-Nazis. They were all loyal participants to the old Nazi regime, and a key part of their legitimacy is that they overthrew the Valkyrie plotters that dared to kill the Fuhrer himself. And while they are stopping the active killing of Jews, they are still very much using them for slave labor.
If you want to get technical, you probably could say the new German gouvernment is a fascist military dictatorship akin to the South American ones later in OTL. Just not "Genocide for the Evulz" Nazi whackjobs, but more pragmatic villains instead.
That said IMHO the historical view of the majority of the German military might very well be harsher. Guderian in particular, but most officers in general had a choice in TTL they never did in OTL or at least could pretend they did not. Until Valkyrie he and thousand like him in the new regime were "officially" apolitical and "just following orders" and admittedly any one of them could not have otherthrown the Nazis by himself. Yet in TTL there came a point they had the option to turn against the Nazis standing together with others and they didn't take it.
So if you ask me in the future those who DID in fact side with Valkyrie will be whitewashed to a much further extent that OTL, while those who choose poorly will be judged far harsher.
 
If you want to get technical, you probably could say the new German gouvernment is a fascist military dictatorship akin to the South American ones later in OTL. Just not "Genocide for the Evulz" Nazi whackjobs, but more pragmatic villains instead.
That's probably not a bad analogy.

It's an interesting question how the Wehrmacht would be judged after a turn of affairs like this. It's a little less obvious than the results of our own timeline. A quick surrender might mitigate (albeit not reverse) the assessment, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
 
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That's probably not a bad analogy.

It's an interesting question how the Wehrmacht would be judged after a turn of affairs like this. It's a little less obvious than the results of our own timeline. A quick surrender might mitigate (albeit not reverse) the assessment, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
I mean, the Wehrmacht was still an integral part of the Nazi government's plans for the Soviet Union and Generalplan Ost. They've already participated in crimes, including the Commissar order, the deliberate mass starvation and mistreatment of Soviet prisoners of war, summary executions of Jewish Red Army soldiers and Communist party members, the brutal occupation and looting of the Soviet civilian population, etc.

It might be easier on one hand to try and redeem some parts of it after the war when the Western powers need to rebuild Germany to face off against the Soviet Union (assuming the Cold War goes as OTL), but most of the awful stuff that the Wehrmacht helped enable and participate in has already happened.
 
I mean, the Wehrmacht was still an integral part of the Nazi government's plans for the Soviet Union and Generalplan Ost. They've already participated in crimes, including the Commissar order, the deliberate mass starvation and mistreatment of Soviet prisoners of war, summary executions of Jewish Red Army soldiers and Communist party members, the brutal occupation and looting of the Soviet civilian population, etc.

It might be easier on one hand to try and redeem some parts of it after the war when the Western powers need to rebuild Germany to face off against the Soviet Union (assuming the Cold War goes as OTL), but most of the awful stuff that the Wehrmacht helped enable and participate in has already happened.
Your second paragraph gets to where I was kinda headed. I don't doubt that the long term historiography (and popular perception) will end up pretty damning of the Wehrmacht, but how the Allied leadership deals with them in the short term might adjust a little in the right circumstances in this post-Valkyrie timeline.
 
Just out of curiosity is this TL going beyond the end of the war?
Well, I'm not sure of it yet. I know how the war will end and the main roads to it, but it will take a lot of time to get there due to being busy with RL, hence why I don't want to get ahead of myself. I have a list of post-war stuff which I'd like to cover, so when - or if - we get to it (assuming it's not too long) I'll have to decide whether to have a long epilogue of sorts (with a few important events) or whether a continuation is even possible.

Everytime I do research I find out about new stuff to cover and the story develops further - recently in unexpected directions for me -, and I'd be lying if I didn't say the detailed format for the first few days of Valkyrie is really hard to sustain for a long term story (otherwise I'd suspect the storyline would be months ahead, at the cost of detail and/or subplots).
 
I strongly prefer timelines to have an ending in mind, after fifteen years of watching them sputter out or go way too long lol so an Epilogue / Where Are They Now is awesome to me :).

I’m not a huge WW2 timeline dude but this one is fantastically well done.
 
The new German government isn't comprised of ex-Nazis. They were all loyal participants to the old Nazi regime, and a key part of their legitimacy is that they overthrew the Valkyrie plotters that dared to kill the Fuhrer himself. And while they are stopping the active killing of Jews, they are still very much using them for slave labor.

Neo-Nazis, anti-Semites, and Holocaust deniers will always find ways to handwave stuff that doesn't fit their worldview. Former SS officers that were at the Camps outright admitted the Holocaust happened and condemned those who denied it, but that hasn't stopped people from claiming it was made-up Jewish propaganda. They'll just argue the Valkyrie people were race traitors who were never really part of the Nazi regime, and the current government decided to temporarily halt the killings to have Jews and other undesirables provide slave labor for the Third Reich (with the understanding they'd restart the gas chambers once the war was won, of course). It doesn't matter if this logic has gaping holes in it, that's what they'll argue.
Can you name SS officers that said those things. Also, as far as what Jews might think of the post-Operation Valkyrie government given that they were opposed to Nazi Germany and brought it down they might have a rather favorable view about them. But for the Speer-Von Papen regime I think Jews will be very mixed at best towards them and at worst might see them as no different from the reign of Hitler.
 
Can you name SS officers that said those things. Also, as far as what Jews might think of the post-Operation Valkyrie government given that they were opposed to Nazi Germany and brought it down they might have a rather favorable view about them. But for the Speer-Von Papen regime I think Jews will be very mixed at best towards them and at worst might see them as no different from the reign of Hitler.
Hans Munch, an SS physician in Auschwitz:
When someone says that Auschwitz is a lie, that it is a hoax, I feel hesitation to say much to him. I say, the facts are so firmly determined, that one cannot have any doubt at all, and I stop talking to that person because there is no use. One knows that anyone who clings to such things, which are published somewhere, is a malevolent person who has some personal interest to want to bury in silence things that cannot be buried in silence.
Oswald Kaduk, an SS officer in Auschwitz, when asked about people who said no one was gassed in Auschwitz:
I have to say, I do not consider these people normal. We have to stick to the truth. There are people denying it, but what happened, happened, and it is not up for dispute.
Oskar Groning, an SS officer in Auschwitz, who ended up in a feud with neo-Nazis over their Holocaust denial:
I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there.
And Karl Frenzel, who was a guard in Sobibor and was once interviewed by a Sobibor survivor:
When my children and friends ask me whether it is true, I tell them yes, it is true. And when they say, but this is impossible, then I tell them again, it is really true. It is wrong to say that it never happened.
 
Hans Munch, an SS physician in Auschwitz:

Oswald Kaduk, an SS officer in Auschwitz, when asked about people who said no one was gassed in Auschwitz:

Oskar Groning, an SS officer in Auschwitz, who ended up in a feud with neo-Nazis over their Holocaust denial:

And Karl Frenzel, who was a guard in Sobibor and was once interviewed by a Sobibor survivor:
Thanks. As I said, Jews might see the post-Operation Valkyrie Ludwig Beck-Carl Friedrich Goerdeler regime in a favorable light since they were anti-Nazi but not so much with the Albert Speer-Franz von Papen government considering what is happening right now.

That being said some surviving figures such Leon Degrelle and Otto Remer still engaged in Holocaust denial but were contradicted by some of their colleagues.
 
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