The Future of Rome in a World Where Carthage Won the Second Punic War

[AlfLandonFan]

Basically what I'm wondering is what the future holds for Rome in a world where Carthage won the Second Punic War. I doubt Carthage would do anything as drastic as conquer all of Rome. They'd probably just take back Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica. So after a Roman humiliation, what would happen next?

I don't think Carthage would expand in the way Rome did, probably just stopping their European expansion at the Pyrenees. So would Rome expand into Gaul and Illyria? Would Carthage swoop in and stop them?

I feel like the latter is the most likely. Even in the event of a decisive Carthaginian victory, both countries would be devastated, so Carthage would probably stop at nothing to prevent Rome from rising to their level.

Of course this isn't even mentioning Macedonia and their future.

 

[Maburo]

Yeah, I agree that I doubt Carthage would totally annex or destroy Rome. Id see Carthage controlling as you say, iberia, sicily sarcinia and corcega, and any influence beyond that being indirect/economic. However, knowing how Rome is, I don't see them "staying down". Rome either conquers, or exhausts itself into a stalemate with only to fight againt a century or so later (Germania, Persia, etc). This is a gross oversimplification I know, but I do see a good chance of Rome attempting to rear its head up against Carthage at least one more time. If Carthage is able to decisively defeat them a second time, then maybe Rome will stop trying to expand in the western mediterranean. Moving on, Carthage would not dominate the mediterranean as Rome did OTL, but it would certainly become the dominant economic power. I do wonder what a weakened Rome means for the helenistic kingdoms moving forward..

 

[Well]

Do I remember rightly that Carthage was more a commercial power than a direct-imperial one? In which case it would presumably make sense to defang Rome, install a friendly government and bring it into the Carthaginian economic orbit, sort of the way the western powers did to China in the 19th Century.

 

[Yeiro]

Do I remember rightly that Carthage was more a commercial power than a direct-imperial one? In which case it would presumably make sense to defang Rome, install a friendly government and bring it into the Carthaginian economic orbit, sort of the way the western powers did to China in the 19th Century.

That would be hard I am more familiarized whith the late republic but the romans were a proud people whith a strong military tradution and that alredy have conquered italy and defeated carthage once in one generation or two new Roman leaders would try to regain any lose they could have suffered and theres also the fact that carthage could suffer internal problems after all oligarchic república don't tend to look well at the acumulation of power under a single family

 

[Putnam]

I think people are forgetting about the Barcas and their informal Empire in Hispania. It's literally the reason why the Second Punic War kicked off when it did. It's likely that Carthage only wins the Second Punic War in spite of instead of because of the Carthaginian Senate...

What's the likelihood of Hannibal using his power base in Hispania to march on Carthage and install himself as king if he perceives the Carthaginian Senate as limiting Carthage's gains against Rome?

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

I think that Carthage wont destroy Rome even in a total victory, but I do see them sponsoring some kind of Samnite federation in south-central Italy as a counterweight (and an easy mercenary recruiting ground) to Rome and a means to apply political and military pressure to the Greek city states of southern Italy.

 

[Gabingston]

Are there any Carthaginian victory timelines worth reading on here?

 

[Yeiro]

I think people are forgetting about the Barcas and their informal Empire in Hispania. It's literally the reason why the Second Punic War kicked off when it did. It's likely that Carthage only wins the Second Punic War in spite of instead of because of the Carthaginian Senate...

What's the likelihood of Hannibal using his power base in Hispania to march on Carthage and install himself as kingA New Carthaginian Age: Trade, Poilotics, War and Treachery in the post-Romam World if he perceives the Carthaginian Senate as limiting Carthage's gains against Rome?

They alredy were very powerful so I think they would become the non-official monarchs of carthage filling the senate whith yes-man

Are there any Carthaginian victory timelines worth reading on here?

A New Carthaginian Age: Trade, Politics, War and Treachery in the post-Roman World by RiseofBublez, is a very good tl unfurtanetely is dead

 

[Mildtryth]

That would be hard I am more familiarized whith the late republic but the romans were a proud people whith a strong military tradution and that alredy have conquered italy and defeated carthage once in one generation or two new Roman leaders would try to regain any lose they could have suffered and theres also the fact that carthage could suffer internal problems after all oligarchic república don't tend to look well at the acumulation of power under a single family

Besides, remember that the general strategy Hannibal was going for was to try and peel Rome's allies off of them - that was important, given that said allies made up a large portion of the Roman armies. Breaking the Roman web of alliances and setting up their own alliances in Italy to contain Rome would their priority there.

 

[dandan_noodles]

Post-war Rome would have a much harder time challenging Carthage, since the southern Italians in Hannibal's league [Taras, Capua, the Samnites, etc] and the Cisalpine Gauls would be hemming them in from south and north. Moving these peoples and their resources out of the Roman column and into the Carthaginian column would produce a major shift in the relative balance, which appears to have been quite close through the first two Punic Wars.

Rome wouldn't be as weak post-war as Carthage was, since its empire drew proportionally more of its manpower from the core territories vs the peripheries Carthage relied on. A favorable opportunity -perhaps Hannibal gets bogged down in Spain, or is drawn into a war between the Successor kings- may see them settle scores with one of their Italian rivals and regain their footing. The Gauls maybe?

A major war in the Levant is pretty likely with the rebellion in Egypt and the succession of a child; it's hard to imagine A-III and P-V refraining from a chance to partition the empire, even if they intended to betray each other later. I could see Carthage supporting P-V as a reward for his support against the Romans.

 

[bguy]

A major war in the Levant is pretty likely with the rebellion in Egypt and the succession of a child; it's hard to imagine A-III and P-V refraining from a chance to partition the empire, even if they intended to betray each other later. I could see Carthage supporting P-V as a reward for his support against the Romans.

How long will Carthage and Macedonia be able to stay allied after winning the Second Punic War? I would think they would both have interests in Magna Graecia that might bring them into conflict.

 

[dandan_noodles]

How long will Carthage and Macedonia be able to stay allied after winning the Second Punic War? I would think they would both have interests in Magna Graecia that might bring them into conflict.

I think the collapse of the Ptolemies opens such opportunities that Carthaginian support for eastern ambitions would be well worth sacrificing interests in the west.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

What about the Celts and the Etruscans in northern and central Italy? If Carthage wins the Roman Carthage wars, then I can easily see the Celts and Etruscans allying with Carthage, and Carthage supporting them to keep down Rome, and make sure Roman strength is stripped away.

 

[Yeiro]

What about the Celts and the Etruscans in northern and central Italy? If Carthage wins the Roman Carthage wars, then I can easily see the Celts and Etruscans allying with Carthage, and Carthage supporting them to keep down Rome, and make sure Roman strength is stripped away.

that's posible but I could see them ending in conflict with each other rating that worring about Rome, also I think that carthage would have to intervene constantly in their italian alliance in the south after all that cities rebel to not continue been subjects of Rome and they wouldn't be intersted in obeying other city just because Carthage want a league to avoid rome from becoming to powerful again

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

They alredy were very powerful so I think they would become the non-official monarchs of carthage filling the senate whith yes-man

A New Carthaginian Age: Trade, Politics, War and Treachery in the post-Roman World by RiseofBublez, is a very good tl unfurtanetely is dead

Any chance of posting a link to that TL?

 

[Yeiro]

A New Carthaginian Age: Trade, Politics, War and Treachery in the post-Roman World here it is

 

[Putnam]

They alredy were very powerful so I think they would become the non-official monarchs of carthage filling the senate whith yes-man

Why would the Barcas stop at that? If they had the power to install themselves as Not!Kings of Carthage then they certainly had the power to install themselves as proper kings. And it's not like the Barcas had any real love for the Carthaginian Senate, also as far as I can tell the Carthaginians didn't have the same burning hatred for Monarchy as the Romans did (though my ignorance of Carthaginian history is quite severe). So why would the Barcas need to maintain the window dressing of Republicanism like Augustus did in Rome a couple of centuries from the 2nd Punic War?

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

You are underestimating the hate that Hannibal had for Rome, he had sworn to destroy Rome; if he had won he would've razed Rome to the ground in similar fashion to what the Romans did to Carthage in the Third Punic War.
For the territories I think that the de facto Barca Empire would gain Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica and Carthage might also take the Greek Cities in South Italy. The Carthaginians would surely take key places for commerce but wouldn't directly annex all of Italy.
Also as the Romans are destroyed there is nobody to stop Macedonia from conquering many Greek cities and like because the Romans aren't there a lot of things change

 

[Yeiro]

Why would the Barcas stop at that? If they had the power to install themselves as Not!Kings of Carthage then they certainly had the power to install themselves as proper kings. And it's not like the Barcas had any real love for the Carthaginian Senate, also as far as I can tell the Carthaginians didn't have the same burning hatred for Monarchy as the Romans did (though my ignorance of Carthaginian history is quite severe). So why would the Barcas need to maintain the window dressing of Republicanism like Augustus did in Rome a couple of centuries from the 2nd Punic War?

after Hamilcar I's death in 480 the king lost most of it's power to the council of elders, in 308 Bomilcar attempted a coup against them but failed and the monarchie was abolish however the position technically still existed but devoided of any power, Hannibal could use it's power to recieve the position and grant it real power but why? Hannibal, his family and his allies alredy are the true power in Carthage proclaiming himself king wouldn't gave him anything apart from making some people hate him more, theres also the fact that carthage has been a republic for almost a century and honestly I always have seen Hannibal more like a Marius or Sulla-like figure than an Augustus-like one but at the end all reduce to the fact that in my opinion the Barcids wouldn't gain anything from a monarchie that they hasn't obtain alredy

 

[Putnam]

Here's a video from Possible History about this very topic and he kind of just reinforces my point to a degree...