The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[Brahman]

Viet Nam is a staunch U.S. ally, has been since the war ended. Most of the French colonies were de facto independent for almost 20 years before the war ended, They viewed the French efforts to somehow reclaim them as fairly hilarious. Pretty much the same thing exists with Indonesia (even IOTL I have recently learned that at least in some quarters of Indonesian society there is a saying "Better 300 years of Dutch Rule than 3 years of Japanese").

It seems possible that you are overestimating the lingering dislike in many of the colonies. Most, in fact pretty much all, of them are economically better off ATL, often fsr better off, in large part because their rulers don't spent idiotic amounts of the national treasury to either fight wars of aggression or to defend against neighbors looking to conquer them.

One main question you missed is that what do they think of the war itself ? Because if Germany did not declare war, most of colonies would not be independent or as rich as they were, that is my main question and argument, that many former colonized would see the second world war as an unfortunate event but a necessary one for the self determination and independence of European colonies

 

[Brahman]

See, when you say that they "suffered no real consequences for it", what do you mean? Do you think that millions of common civilians in France and Netherlands deserved to suffer and die out of some twisted sense of "penance"? In your mind, what consequences ought did OTL Europe ought to endure? And do know that these crimes are hardly confined to the Europeans and can be applied to really any other injustice in history, even that which had been committed onto Europeans by non-Europeans.

Again, I cite Algeria and the Barbary slave trade. Going by what seems to be your line of thinking, over 100 years of French rule and all it entailed were well deserved "real consequences" because of how Algerians kidnapped and enslaved Europeans.

Justice in a sense that those European nations admiting that they were wrong in colonization and killed many innocents as well as destroying the native states and culture

Again you seem to have a wrong impression that I am condoning the treatment of Europe by Germany, I am just saying that those former colonies would see the war as a necessary event for their own independence for European nations and would have more mixed views on World war 2

 

[Tales Weaver]

Many of these moral panic in interwar germany was started off by nazis like how they claimed Jews as spreader of communism and the weimar culture, which the nazis called decadent. That was what they used to justify book burnings and all these violance like kristallnacht and eventually the holocaust.

So, seeing an actual regime that corrupted its youth prevents the Tipper Gores from having nearly the clout they would have? You can't say that Twisted Sister is poisoning the youth since people know how a generation can be turned evil?

I think ITTL people would argue that "people like Tipper Gore types were the one caused the Hitler Youth, who wanted to show children 'correct' culture, which was just euphemism for brainwashing in reality."

 

[Captain Homicide]

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I’ll repeat what other users and the author/moderator have said with the utmost respect. You should continue this argument either in private or in a separate thread.

You’re doing nothing but polluting the thread and putting the author’s ability to respond to questions at stake for no good reason. Do you really want to ruin a perfectly good thing for fans of one of the most popular TLs and longest running threads on this site because you can’t let things go or take it to a more appropriate forum?

 

[Bookmark1995]

I think ITTL people would argue that "people like Tipper Gore types were the one caused the Hitler Youth, who wanted to show children 'correct' culture, which was just euphemism for brainwashing in reality."

But the censorship argument is not that simple.

TTL, hate crime laws might be a lot more important, because the unregulated spewing of hateful content contributed to the rise of Nazism, and the A4 are prepared to do anything to keep it from happening again.

 

[Brahman]

Ironically and unfortunately despite all the horrific destruction Nazis have done, once the near inevitable war with Chinese start, they would replace the Germans as the most hated group in the planet, with the leader of China at that time easily outranking Hitler as the worst individual ever. The death toll from such a biological war for extermination can be anywhere from 10% to 80% of world population

 

[Bookmark1995]

Ironically and unfortunately despite all the horrific destruction Nazis have done, once the near inevitable war with Chinese start, they would replace the Germans as the most hated group in the planet, with the leader of China at that time easily outranking Hitler as the worst individual ever. The death toll from such a biological war for extermination can be anywhere from 10% to 80% of world population

I really don't think that would work. As bad as COVID, the death toll does not match the death toll from past plagues.

While Chinese biological warfare is bad, I doubt they could actually kill 5% of the population, and TTL America is run by a not-batshit group of people who believe disease is a liberal con job.

 

[Brahman]

I really don't think that would work. As bad as COVID, the death toll does not match the death toll from past plagues.

While Chinese biological warfare is bad, I doubt they could actually kill 5% of the population, and TTL America is run by a not-batshit group of people who believe disease is a liberal con job.

They seem to developing weapons specifically to kill people other than chinese, though even if they do not succeed, their attacks will leave hundreds of millions dead or incapacitated, add to that the destruction China would endure from A4 and India would be massive as well, I see atleast a Billion deaths

 

[Bookmark1995]

They seem to developing weapons specifically to kill people other than chinese, though even if they do not succeed, their attacks will leave hundreds of millions dead or incapacitated, add to that the destruction China would endure from A4 and India would be massive as well, I see atleast a Billion deaths

The kind of war they could unleash would definitely be bad.

But germs were only deadly in a time period where their effects on health were unacknowledged.

 

[Brahman]

The kind of war they could unleash would definitely be bad.

But germs were only deadly in a time period where their effects on health were unacknowledged.

I think Calbear said that war has the potential to end the Human race at worst, even Nazis were not this dangerous

 

[Wesley_Lewt]

Shortly after the Reich’s invasion of Poland, its quasi-ally the Soviet Union entered Poland and annexed a significant portion of the country’s eastern provinces. Strangely, this action caused no reaction by either the British or French governments while those of the Reich were responded to with declarations of war.

^ Taken from the first post in the original thread.

FYI Britain and France had specific treaty obligations to defend Poland from Germany specifically. Neither Britain nor France had treaty obligations to defend Poland from the Soviet Union.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I think Calbear said that war has the potential to end the Human race at worst, even Nazis were not this dangerous

oh...

^ Taken from the first post in the original thread.

FYI Britain and France had specific treaty obligations to defend Poland from Germany specifically. Neither Britain nor France had treaty obligations to defend Poland from the Soviet Union.

How adorable...wordplay.

Yeah, Britain and France couldn't afford to alienate Soviet Russia, but it still sucks.

 

[Brahman]

A researcher comes up to his superior and says "I believe we have been successful", followed by a test event in the USSR (not WITH the Soviets, ON the Soviets) to determine "proper distribution methods". Then 3/4 of the people on Earth drop over dead.

OR

Someone rats the whole thing out to the A4 or India and a effort begins to determine how to wipe out the labs without spreading the pathogens far and wide. Day after that set of weapons is ready, big chunks of China get zapped, the Cabal is hunted down like Mad Dogs and the World now get to have the international war crimes trial to beat all trials.

OR

Both happen at around the same moment. 400,000 years later Ursine Sapiens Sapiens learn to decipher the little bits and pieces of of rubble left from the Elders and shake their heads at the utter stupidity of the Elders before entering the "final Talks" between Ursine Civilization and the Orca Collective on the Salmon Issue.

@Bookmark1995, This is the true potential of the war, I suspect what most likely would happen is that Chinese release this virus, but it is not as effective as they thought and even starts killing their own, the rest of the world is wrecked by the virus, losing anywhere from 10% to 50% of the population depending on the country, with Countries with Larger population surviving the ordeal better, and then comes hell on China, where it is completely destroyed in everyway possible, losing a huge portion of its population.

I suspect Calbear had China insane and planning on global genocide because he did not want people think that this timeline is much better than OTL, because Other and Europe and China, this world seems truely better off, but because of the massive potential conflict with China always hanging over the head, it would make this would bleak

 

[Wesley_Lewt]

How adorable...wordplay.

Yeah, Britain and France couldn't afford to alienate Soviet Russia, but it still sucks.

Huh?

 

[Lalli]

I really don't think that would work. As bad as COVID, the death toll does not match the death toll from past plagues.

While Chinese biological warfare is bad, I doubt they could actually kill 5% of the population, and TTL America is run by a not-batshit group of people who believe disease is a liberal con job.

Chinese are really seriously trying to create virus which is going to kill lot of people. Chinese agents probably try spread that virus on somewhere where is lot of people and ratherly in some very pupular tourist target so they would bring that to their homes. It would take weeks before A4 realises what the hell is going and by that time hundred of millions are got sick. But probably it is not that effective as Chinese thought. But still it would kill tens of millions of people.

Revenge of A4 would be terrible. China would be totally destroyed. That would be probably most lethal phase on this war. Death toll would be higher than on WW2 + nazi occupation + Hot War.

And it would take something like one year before they can make vaccine to this virus. It would spread quiet much even if A4 countries and its allies are willingful to take situation extremely seriously and ready to enact harsh restrictions for people.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Chinese are really seriously trying to create virus which is going to kill lot of people. Chinese agents probably try spread that virus on somewhere where is lot of people and ratherly in some very pupular tourist target so they would bring that to their homes. It would take weeks before A4 realises what the hell is going and by that time hundred of millions are got sick. But probably it is not that effective as Chinese thought. But still it would kill tens of millions of people.

Revenge of A4 would be terrible. China would be totally destroyed. That would be probably most lethal phase on this war. Death toll would be higher than on WW2 + nazi occupation + Hot War.

And it would take something like one year before they can make vaccine to this virus. It would spread quiet much even if A4 countries and its allies are willingful to take situation extremely seriously and ready to enact harsh restrictions for people.

It'd be really depressing to be a veteran of the TTL second world war, or a kid who grew up during this horrible time in history, and have to witness this kind of shit over again.

(Old man reading an article about the Chinese massacring an Indian village): People don't learn do they?

@Bookmark1995, This is the true potential of the war, I suspect what most likely would happen is that Chinese release this virus, but it is not as effective as they thought and even starts killing their own, the rest of the world is wrecked by the virus, losing anywhere from 10% to 50% of the population depending on the country, with Countries with Larger population surviving the ordeal better, and then comes hell on China, where it is completely destroyed in everyway possible, losing a huge portion of its population.

I suspect Calbear had China insane and planning on global genocide because he did not want people think that this timeline is much better than OTL, because Other and Europe and China, this world seems truely better off, but because of the massive potential conflict with China always hanging over the head, it would make this would bleak

OTL, we're all waiting with baited breath for the dread headline "China invades Taiwan."

So that bleak future might soon become a horrible prediction in our reality.

 

[CalBear]

@Bookmark1995, This is the true potential of the war, I suspect what most likely would happen is that Chinese release this virus, but it is not as effective as they thought and even starts killing their own, the rest of the world is wrecked by the virus, losing anywhere from 10% to 50% of the population depending on the country, with Countries with Larger population surviving the ordeal better, and then comes hell on China, where it is completely destroyed in everyway possible, losing a huge portion of its population.

I suspect Calbear had China insane and planning on global genocide because he did not want people think that this timeline is much better than OTL, because Other and Europe and China, this world seems truely better off, but because of the massive potential conflict with China always hanging over the head, it would make this would bleak

To a degree you are correct. the War killed 190 million people and involved extensive use of WMD. To have the world post-War be all Unicorn giggles and rainbows would be completely unrealistic.

Chinese are really seriously trying to create virus which is going to kill lot of people. Chinese agents probably try spread that virus on somewhere where is lot of people and ratherly in some very pupular tourist target so they would bring that to their homes. It would take weeks before A4 realises what the hell is going and by that time hundred of millions are got sick. But probably it is not that effective as Chinese thought. But still it would kill tens of millions of people.

Revenge of A4 would be terrible. China would be totally destroyed. That would be probably most lethal phase on this war. Death toll would be higher than on WW2 + nazi occupation + Hot War.

And it would take something like one year before they can make vaccine to this virus. It would spread quiet much even if A4 countries and its allies are willingful to take situation extremely seriously and ready to enact harsh restrictions for people.

As far as the Cabal's plans - Imagine a virus with an Rnought of measles but with a nominal 100% fatality rate for specific genetic populations.

They want to reset the Planet with what they see as the True Race.

They are, of course, mad as hatters.

It'd be really depressing to be a veteran of the TTL second world war, or a kid who grew up during this horrible time in history, and have to witness this kind of shit over again.

(Old man reading an article about the Chinese massacring an Indian village): People don't learn do they?



OTL, we're all waiting with baited breath for the dread headline "China invades Taiwan."

So that bleak future might soon become a horrible prediction in our reality.

Oh, if the Canal succeeds, there won't be any headline in Roman or Cyrillic or Arabic, Hindi, etc. at all. Or at best "THE END IS HERE".

 

[Bookmark1995]

To a degree you are correct. the War killed 190 million people and involved extensive use of WMD. To have the world post-War be all Unicorn giggles and rainbows would be completely unrealistic.

Personally, and this my philosophical opinion, I don't think the war has really ended at all.

The fact that Germany remains a broken society and the A4 keeps a laser over everyone's head proves that society still hasn't really moved past that great horror.

And while I understand why they do these things, it feels like the horrible shadow of Nazism hasn't been fully expunged.

 

[Lalli]

It'd be really depressing to be a veteran of the TTL second world war, or a kid who grew up during this horrible time in history, and have to witness this kind of shit over again.

(Old man reading an a

It would be indeed depressing for anyone who lived and still remember Hot War. And even worsely when these old people see their children/grandchildren being drafted.

And yet pretty surely lot of veterans suffered very severe PTSD and many of them probably tried treat that with booze.

Sino-A4 War is going to be really horrible.

Personally, and this my philosophical opinion, I don't think the war has really ended at all.

The fact that Germany remains a broken society and the A4 keeps a laser over everyone's head proves that society still hasn't really moved past that great horror.

And while I understand why they do these things, it feels like the horrible shadow of Nazism hasn't been fully expunged.

True. WW2 is kind of continuing still in 2020's even when last shoots were shot already 60 yearfs ago. Germany is still under occupation, divided to several occupation zones, has yet pay preparations few decades and not any hope that these statelets would become fully independent and Germans are nto seen closet nazis whom can't be trusted. And any unification of Germany is not going to happen ever even if statelets would are allowed go fully independent on distant future.

 

[Brahman]

Personally, and this my philosophical opinion, I don't think the war has really ended at all.

The fact that Germany remains a broken society and the A4 keeps a laser over everyone's head proves that society still hasn't really moved past that great horror.

And while I understand why they do these things, it feels like the horrible shadow of Nazism hasn't been fully expunged.

I would prefer A4 considering they fact they have stopped genocides, famines, have improved both Social and Economic aspects of the world, especially Africa, Asia, Latin America

A4 is like an extremely strict principal in a boarding school, yes they are harsh, but they truely want to improve the life of Humans across the world