Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Merrick]

• I think I just killed the Covenanter!

And there was much rejoicing - especially from the Cavaliers
I think that's plausible, given that the Covenanter is still only a paper tank, and by the time it's ready for production there will be at least two competing designs (Valiant 1* and either the A13 MkII or Crusader) already in production. Also the Ministry appears to have twigged that having LMS produce its own design rather than someone else's doesn't add any more tanks to the overall production totals.

The next question is whether the Covenanter will stay dead once everyone realises just how hopelessly inadequate "5 tanks per week" levels of production are in wartime and the first wave of "order everything!" hits.

Question - who's producing the petrol Lions for all these extra Valiant 1*s? Perkins is producing the diesel version, but I don't think I saw anything about setting up a line for the petrol version. And if production gets up to speed, any chance of one of Nuffield's partners trying one in a Crusader?

 

[allanpcameron]

Question - who's producing the petrol Lions for all these extra Valiant 1*s? Perkins is producing the diesel version, but I don't think I saw anything about setting up a line for the petrol version. And if production gets up to speed, any chance of one of Nuffield's partners trying one in a Crusader?

What if Meadows make it instead of their V12 DAV which is cancelled cause of the cancellation of the Covenanter? That'd be kind of fun, especially if it replace the Liberty in the later Crusader marks.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

And if production gets up to speed, any chance of one of Nuffield's partners trying one in a Crusader?

Nuffield will never willingly give up the Liberty or allow the any Crusaders to be built with a different engine. If only someone could repeat what Beaverbrook did to him over Spitfire production.

 

[pedmore1202]

Question - who's producing the petrol Lions for all these extra Valiant 1*s? Perkins is producing the diesel version, but I don't think I saw anything about setting up a line for the petrol version. And if production gets up to speed, any chance of one of Nuffield's partners trying one in a Crusader?

IIRC, the petrol version isn't being built, its a couple of hundred of the existing Lion engines that are converted to petrol due to the demands of the Cruiser tank group

 

[MarcH]

The next question is whether the Covenanter will stay dead once everyone realises just how hopelessly inadequate "5 tanks per week" levels of production are in wartime and the first wave of "order everything!" hits.

I would have thought so. By that point it will be to far gone to consider reviving. Much easier to get them building more Matilda II's

Question - who's producing the petrol Lions for all these extra Valiant 1*s? Perkins is producing the diesel version, but I don't think I saw anything about setting up a line for the petrol version. And if production gets up to speed, any chance of one of Nuffield's partners trying one in a Crusader?

What if Meadows make it instead of their V12 DAV which is cancelled cause of the cancellation of the Covenanter? That'd be kind of fun, especially if it replace the Liberty in the later Crusader marks.

This was something I picked up on as well. It has the potential to be a major problem that turns out to be a blessing in disguise. It looks like production of Diesel Lion's and Valiant's will be more than adequate for the foreseeable. In fact I think it may be likely that more will be built than are actually needed well, at least in active theatre's, yes more will always be needed but North Africa will get priority once it all kicks off their. Now if the production of Petrol Lions isn't sorted that leaves a hole in the cruiser tank production. Perhaps some bright spark will have the Idea of just using the Diesel Lion as it is available and still reasonably fast.
That being said having plenty of petrol Lion's on hand to really annoy Nuffield is pretty nice as well.
Difficult choices.

 

[MarcH]

So just a note that the first part of that meeting is a OTL including the quote ‘a large tank factory ready to compete with any type of work.’
Obviously the second part isn't OTL.

• NB:
• I think I just killed the Covenanter!
• The Valiant Mark II will have the 6-pdr.
• Leyland built 494 Covenanters, English Electric built 1088. 1500 Valiants! Lovely.
• LMS built 400 Matilda IIs OTL, plus 159 Covenanters and 30 A13 Mark IIs. An extra 100 Matildas! Lovely.
• If Harland & Wolff move from the A9 to the Valiant, that kind of butterflies the A20. The A20 is kind of a Matilda II (armour and turret) married to a Covenanter (engine and transmission) and having a monster.
• If the A20 is butterflied, then what happens to Vauxhall and their A22 (Churchill)?

YAY no Covenanter. That is a big bonus to Britain and it's tank numbers.
YAY 6pdr
No, not 1500 Valiant's, it will likely be more. With Vickers helping to get production set up and with the better and quicker manufacturing methods the number of tanks will likely increase.
YAY more Matilda II's
The thought process and eventual specification that lead to the A20 and the Churchill will likely still be dreamt up. The idea trench warfare will be a thing will only go away after France falls. How the specification is written will likely be a bit different. The Diesel Lion would appear to be the perfect engine as it has power and torque as well as sharing parts with the Valiant so that is likely in. Beyond that (and I am hesitant to start this based on the last few pages of discussion) the choice of available or soon to be available gun will also play a part. You didn't bring up the gun Vickers is working on. If that is known about and appeals then the specification could potentially include it. I could see the specification hanging around in the background until it gets picked up by/given to a company that is free to develop it. Vauxhall remain the likely bet but it is not a given but if it is then the end result will still likely look quite Churchill like.

 

[MarcH]

Carden is looking at a gun with a muzzle velocity between 2,000-2,500 ft/s.

I know, that doesn't mean expectations cant be exceeded. It would hardly be the first time in Human history that designers produced something that far exceeded the design requirements. The gun the Vickers team is designing is a parts gun. It is reusing a lot of parts from other guns including I would imagine the cartridge case. If it is using th cartridge case from the 3" 20cwt it has the ability to be pushed a long way.

 

[vl100butch]

I have this visualization of a bunch of A-11s going to Malaya...using that pom pom against the Japanese (infantry and armor) could get very interesting!!!

 

[MattII]

I know, that doesn't mean expectations cant be exceeded. It would hardly be the first time in Human history that designers produced something that far exceeded the design requirements. The gun the Vickers team is designing is a parts gun. It is reusing a lot of parts from other guns including I would imagine the cartridge case. If it is using th cartridge case from the 3" 20cwt it has the ability to be pushed a long way.

A higher velocity means a less effective HE round.

Did anyone else spot the interesting little nugget that the 180 Matilda Is (40 more than OTL) are going to be ready by early 1940? How many more will find their way to France is up for debate, but if it's (as I suspect it will be) a significant increase, that's bound to upset the Germans something fierce.

 

[MarcH]

A higher velocity means a less effective HE round.

Did anyone else spot the interesting little nugget that the 180 Matilda Is (40 more than OTL) are going to be ready by early 1940? How many more will find their way to France is up for debate, but if it's (as I suspect it will be) a significant increase, that's bound to upset the Germans something fierce.

True, unless the HE round is loaded to a lower pressure than the AP round. If it was Royal Ordnance designing the gun that wouldn't happen but it isn't. the OTL Vickers 75mm HV used the US 75mm shell fired at a low velocity compared to the AP shell. This at least shows Vickers has the potential to put a decent HE round in a gun. Given the specification calls for good HE and AP performance it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Vickers do the same here. Their is also the possibility a higher MV gun can have a better HE shell by lengthening the shell and thinning the walls to fit in even more HE whilst reducing the propellent. This is something I could see the Vickers designers doing. Whether or not the British Army would be happy with that is another thing.

The thought of all those Matilda I's slowly chugging up to the Germans pom poming away merrily. Warms the heart doesn't it.

 

[Schlock]

I find myself wondering what are the modifications that Perkins will make to the Diesel Lion? I suspect that the simplest improvement will be to go from the individual fabricated cylinders to a cast four cylinder block. That will likely make the engine a bit heavier, but it should improve the cooling as a tradeoff. The other likely change is a modified crankcase casting that trades weight for bottom end strength.

Long term, a W18 version would seem to be a fairly low risk improvement while still getting a 50% increase in capacity while not requiring Perkins to reinvent the entire architecture and ensure a significant amount of commonality of components between them.

 

[marathag]

The idea trench warfare will be a thing will only go away after France falls

unless the British hold a pocket around Calais
Then the Brits are ready, with this trenching machine

codename Cultivator Number 6

 

[MattII]

True, unless the HE round is loaded to a lower pressure than the AP round. If it was Royal Ordnance designing the gun that wouldn't happen but it isn't. the OTL Vickers 75mm HV used the US 75mm shell fired at a low velocity compared to the AP shell. This at least shows Vickers has the potential to put a decent HE round in a gun. Given the specification calls for good HE and AP performance it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Vickers do the same here. Their is also the possibility a higher MV gun can have a better HE shell by lengthening the shell and thinning the walls to fit in even more HE whilst reducing the propellent. This is something I could see the Vickers designers doing. Whether or not the British Army would be happy with that is another thing.

The thought of all those Matilda I's slowly chugging up to the Germans pom poming away merrily. Warms the heart doesn't it.

True about the HE shell. As for the Matildas, if there's more of them about, Arras is likely to not be the first time they're encountered, which will likely to make the Germans more cautious, and slow down their advance just a bit. Actually, that makes me wonder, with more tanks available, could the British maybe turn the attack at Arras into the start of a genuine offensive?

 

[marathag]

Actually, that makes me wonder, with more tanks available, could the British maybe turn the attack at Arras into the start of a genuine offensive?

Not just better tanks, but most important, reliable tanks that could make it to the battlefield

 

[Zee Cactus]

Nice update as per usual, Alan. Would you mind threadmarking this most recent one for ease of navigation? I think you forgot to do so.

 

[Atrophied]

Yeah im also suspecting that the british might do a serious offensive thanks to arras success and to hopefully atleast in their minds to rescue the french . Basicly trying to do the germans what germans did to the 2nd rate french units for a week or two hopefully. Then the germans logistics catch up or the army group from northern belgium arrives and otl events happen more or less , but the evacuation is alot more organized thanks to the delay seems like the most likely result .
They might also get french help for it wich might actually be interesting. Im still saying they will lose but a delay of a month or two seems very realistic to be honest.

And if things go even further u could request the poles form a corp and their tank brigade to the BEF and they get evacuated even better than in OTL and might even keep the corp strenght ? Maybe by combining the 3rd and 4th divisions that were working up ? (This is more if things go towards autumn and stuff) . But concetrating the polish corps instead of it being parceled into the diffrent parts might be a thing to pursue as a butterfly if the author is interested for mainland europe atleast. Maybe have them be assigned to the dyle plan forces as part of a french army? And thats why they get evacuated better than in OTL .

You could pursue bigger belgian forces compared to otl aswell if the collapse is slower and the will from the UK is there. I think up to a corps sized but probably a divison or two wouldnt be that strange .

And bigger free french forces earlier could still be possible ofcourse but who knows what a little better showing would do . Honestly world war 2 ruined the frenchs martial reputation especially battle of france wich is strange considering their dominance before that altough they didnt do great in ww1.

Mainly to make british casualties abit lower and maybe to concetrate on industry with the few divisons of fighting men u acquire. Goal could be a free nations corp or even army for d-day?Even if u do make them do the unwanted jobs they would still be rather useful and as said it would keep UK/USA casualties lower and have those nations militaries to have something base themselves on after the war.(well not in poland tough )

 

[MattII]

Yeah im also suspecting that the british might do a serious offensive thanks to arras success and to hopefully atleast in their minds to rescue the french . Basicly trying to do the germans what germans did to the 2nd rate french units for a week or two hopefully. Then the germans logistics catch up or the army group from northern belgium arrives and otl events happen more or less , but the evacuation is alot more organized thanks to the delay seems like the most likely result .
They might also get french help for it wich might actually be interesting. Im still saying they will lose but a delay of a month or two seems very realistic to be honest.

And if things go even further u could request the poles form a corp and their tank brigade to the BEF and they get evacuated even better than in OTL and might even keep the corp strenght ? Maybe by combining the 3rd and 4th divisions that were working up ? (This is more if things go towards autumn and stuff) . But concetrating the polish corps instead of it being parceled into the diffrent parts might be a thing to pursue as a butterfly if the author is interested for mainland europe atleast. Maybe have them be assigned to the dyle plan forces as part of a french army? And thats why they get evacuated better than in OTL .

You could pursue bigger belgian forces compared to otl aswell if the collapse is slower and the will from the UK is there. I think up to a corps sized but probably a divison or two wouldnt be that strange .

And bigger free french forces earlier could still be possible ofcourse but who knows what a little better showing would do . Honestly world war 2 ruined the frenchs martial reputation especially battle of france wich is strange considering their dominance before that altough they didnt do great in ww1.

Mainly to make british casualties abit lower and maybe to concetrate on industry with the few divisons of fighting men u acquire. Goal could be a free nations corp or even army for d-day?Even if u do make them do the unwanted jobs they would still be rather useful and as said it would keep UK/USA casualties lower and have those nations militaries to have something base themselves on after the war.(well not in poland tough )

That sounds plausible, and would be awesome if it happened. In fact, it might split the Battle of France into two parts, the first where the Germans force the Allies back to the Seine (and possibly Calais), and the second part (with a delay in between) where the Germans attempt to cross the Seine and take the rest of France. The second part is likely to see the first appearance of the Valiant, to the dismay of the Germans.

 

[Rickshaw]

I have this visualization of a bunch of A-11s going to Malaya...using that pom pom against the Japanese (infantry and armor) could get very interesting!!!

The problem is, the British Army was still working on the idea that the "Jungle is impassable" to everyone and everything. The Japanese didn't believe that. Nor did they believe the British Ordnance Survey maps which still portrayed large parts of Malaya covered in Tropical Rainforest, rather than rubber plantations. The result was that the British and Indian armies set up road blocks and looked at the Jungle and didn't consider that the Japanese would outflank them. Having tanks in Malaya might have slowed the Japanese, it wouldn't have stopped them. Singapore would still be, at the very least, invested and more than likely fallen, perhaps in April 1942, rather than February. The Japanese would still have been victorious. Once they crossed the Straits of Jahore and took the water reservoirs there was no way that Singapore could hold out.

 

[Rickshaw]

True, unless the HE round is loaded to a lower pressure than the AP round. If it was Royal Ordnance designing the gun that wouldn't happen but it isn't. the OTL Vickers 75mm HV used the US 75mm shell fired at a low velocity compared to the AP shell. This at least shows Vickers has the potential to put a decent HE round in a gun. Given the specification calls for good HE and AP performance it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Vickers do the same here. Their is also the possibility a higher MV gun can have a better HE shell by lengthening the shell and thinning the walls to fit in even more HE whilst reducing the propellent. This is something I could see the Vickers designers doing. Whether or not the British Army would be happy with that is another thing.

The thought of all those Matilda I's slowly chugging up to the Germans pom poming away merrily. Warms the heart doesn't it.

Everybody harps on about the "HE round buries itself". Their solution is to lower it's velocity. A cheaper alternative is use a base fuse. Australia developed it's own HE round for the 2Pdr. It was base, rather than the as the British had done, nose fused. It exploded after penetrating the Japanese log bunkers it was designed to be used against. The British round would explode on first contact, outside the bunker. A base fused round use the ability of the round to "bury itself" to it's advantage. It retains the same velocity as the AP round and actually has some armour penetration as well.

 

[StrikeEcho]

The problem is, the British Army was still working on the idea that the "Jungle is impassable" to everyone and everything. The Japanese didn't believe that. Nor did they believe the British Ordnance Survey maps which still portrayed large parts of Malaya covered in Tropical Rainforest, rather than rubber plantations. The result was that the British and Indian armies set up road blocks and looked at the Jungle and didn't consider that the Japanese would outflank them. Having tanks in Malaya might have slowed the Japanese, it wouldn't have stopped them. Singapore would still be, at the very least, invested and more than likely fallen, perhaps in April 1942, rather than February. The Japanese would still have been victorious. Once they crossed the Straits of Jahore and took the water reservoirs there was no way that Singapore could hold out.

I dunno man, Singapore was ran on a tight IJA logistic train, having a few tanks to blunt the initial Japanese attack plus some better commanders due to butterflies from the NA, Singapore might be able to hold-on until the theatre gets outflank from the East Indies.