Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[JamesHunter]

The government announced that on such and such day rationing of what ever would end, this normally caused it to be reimposed as the goods in question were rapidly sold out. Simple rule if you want to abolish rationing, slowly rase the amount available on ration, until the amount is equal or exceeds the amount that people would normally buy.

Doesn't help that Labour were fairly reluctant to get rid of rationing in the first place since it ensured all classes were getting the same food, so there wouldn't have been alot of forward planning before the Tories got back in on "Rationing needs to go-yesterday!"

 

[kelgar04]

One wonders how loyal the Indochina administration is? Paris after all is very far away and while the Japanese are currently in occupation it should quickly become clear the Allies will be knocking at the door before very long. At that point do you listen to Petain or throw in with the Allies (which would provide them with a quick route to the Southern Chinese border and - once the Japanese are fully cleared out- the use of Cam Ranh bay to ship in supplies for the Nationalists)?

I have to wonder if Petain will have an even more mixed reputation than he does OTL given how the British Army has performed up until now in WW2 I can see him being given more of a short shift than OTL when it comes to his choices in WW2.

Heck the way things have gone in NA and elsewhere I have to wonder if some in Vichy France are wondering if the backed the right horse.

 

[JamesHunter]

I have to wonder if Petain will have an even more mixed reputation than he does OTL given how the British Army has performed up until now in WW2 I can see him being given more of a short shift than OTL when it comes to his choices in WW2.

Heck the way things have gone in NA and elsewhere I have to wonder if some in Vichy France are wondering if the backed the right horse.

The excuse will probably be "protecting the French population" but given other places did fight on from abroad and others (notably Denmark with its Jews) did vastly more to resist I doubt that will fly. In the end as OTL they'll be remembered as opportunistic fascist A-holes who tried to destroy France's honour in a stupid and doomed attempt to turn the clock back to 1788.

 

[vetinari]

Six, SOE and the OSS, ITTL.



Before looking at the effect that the changes ITTL will have on the operations of the above will have, best that we define what their roles were in reality. As apposed to the fantasy that most people who get their information from Hollywood, Pinewood or airport book racks. MI6 or to give it its true name, SIS the Secret Intelligence Service is the oldest of the three, and its primary role is to gather intelligence/information on his/her majesties enemies and friends. SOE the Special Operations Executive, was set up during the war at the instigation of Winston Churchill, and incorporated Section D of SIS whose remit had been to investigate the potential for sabotage in enemy territory. It’s task was To Set Europe Ablaze, which was very incompatible with the tasks of ether MI6 or MI9, who both required the minimum of activity to carry out their tasks. And the conflicts between these services was at times intense, and the actions of SOE could and did seriously affect the work of the other two. The American OSS Office of Strategic Services , or Oh So Social as it was known to those in the know, the forerunner of today’s CIA, was a combination of SIS and SOE, carrying out both functions. Unfortunately this brought with it the conflicting requirements of an intelligent gathering service and a super special forces unit, hence why they are often called cowboys by the more mature and established intelligence agencies. Before we proceed to the effects that events OTTL might have had on the operations of the various Allied intelligence agencies, there is one vital point to take into consideration. That is the profound differences between the conduct of intelligence/sabotage operations in Europe, the Middle East, and the Far East Pacific region.

In Europe the British and to a lesser extent the Americans, could in addition to their own mixed race’ citizens, ie British father and Dutch mother, or French father and British mother. Or predominately in the American case, the first generation sons and daughters of recent immigrants, especially among their Jewish population and Greek/Italian communities. The British also had access to the large number of refugees through their various ‘Free’ government and their own national intelligence services. Such agents provided with the relevant documents were essentially free to roam around Europe at will, and could finance their operations by raising a lone with a local bank, guaranteed by London. If you want to run an intelligence operation, escape line, or sabotage/terrorist operation, the one thing that you need lots of is money. And the ability to approach senior banker business man and arrange a loan in the local currency, was a huge advantage. He provided you with a code word/phrases, which London then arranged at an agreed time was broadcast on the BBC. The principal advantage that the various agencies will enjoy ITTL, is that with the significant better performance of the British in the early years, more people will be inclined to offer their services, and take part in the clandestine activities against the Germans. No doubt mistakes such as happened in our TL, will take place, but given the greater participation, the overall value of the various attempts, will produce better results.

However once you are outside Europe, the ability to insert a British/American intelligence asset decreases significantly. Even with the best paperwork in the world, no Britton or American could operate in any Japanese controlled territory with impunity. Even a Japanese American would stand out like a sore thumb, and would be obvious to even, but the most dim whited Japanese official. So here as in the Middle East, the overwhelming majority of operations behind enemy lines, are going to have to be conducted by special forces. In the Middle East, this was a combination of the LRDG, who were the MI6 equivalent whose job was primarily to watch and report, and the SAS the SOE equivalent whose job was to do and take action. Given the very sparse population of the region, and the lack of large urban centres, this was the only possible solution. In the Far East especially Malaya, the British have formed two military units, one that is a coalition of experienced local civilians, plantation owners, mine owners/managers etc, who in combination with a military component. Are working to establish contact with the civilian communities behind the lines, and report back information both military and civilian to the military command and civilian authorities, they are trying to avoid any contact with the Japanese, or taking direct action against the Japanese. While the other group which is predominately military in composition, aims to carry out acts that aid the military by disrupting the rear areas of the Japanese forces, and complying them to deploy vital troops in protecting their supply lines. And this system will continue once the British are outside of their own territory, as they will find locals or in the case of FIC, French men who are amenable to cooperating with the British forces.

There because of the local situation, isn’t going to be much intelligence gathering in the Pacific region, other than off the coast watchers type, ie a European officer with ether local or British/American military support. You might on some of the larger islands, be able to use an established local trader, normally Chinese to gather information in a town or city, but other than that it’s a case of watching from afar and reporting back to HQ. The Philippines are the area where we might see the biggest difference, as the various changes that are happening, are going to cause significant modifications to the TL. IOTL, once his imperial majesty the MacArthur had been evacuated and the surrender announced, a local resistance movement developed, with large numbers of American expatriates hiding in the jungle, and regular and reservist officers refusing to surrender, and they too decanting into the jungle. However according to his Majesty, as he hadn’t established this resistance, it didn’t exist, nor was he going to allow the OSS to operate on his turf. ITTL, MacArthur having been evacuated, very much under a cloud, and not appointed SAC South West Pacific, as it is doubtful that this command will be created. There will be a significant time when the nascent resistance movement in the Philippines, will be in contact with both the American high command and the British high command. British and American submarines will be running trained special forces personnel along with essential supplies into the Philippines, and evacuating civilians who have managed to avoid capture. By the time that MacArthur is given command of the invasion force to relieve the Philippines, a well established, effective and supported resistance force will have been established, and the OSS will have a presence that he will have to take notice of. The OSS which had its own successful propaganda service, will have established with the American people its role in the Philippines, and Doug will not be able to ignore it. Thus we could see some very different results, with the resistance playing a much greater role in the liberation of the Philippines, and the subsequent story of this operation.

RR.

To this interesting summary, let me add about Z Special Force - the Australian equivalent to a combination of SOE/SIS/SAS/LRDG and SBS. Z Special Force were sent behind Japanese lines in the Pacific region. Their role was to "set the Pacific region ablaze". Their activities are shrouded in mystery with few books written on them and most of their activities being carried to the grave. What is known is they were active in PNG, the Islands, Borneo and even southern China. They organised native groups to resist the Japanese and their allies, to sabotage their installations and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

I'd also like to mention the Coast Watch service. Established when the Japanese advanced into the SW Pacific they were usually planters or traders who elected to stay behind and were helped extensively by local, native people to watch the Japanese from the jungle. Their lives were constantly in danger, they were constantly on the move, around the islands where they were established and because of their warning efforts we were appraised of Japanese efforts in the Islands.

Then there were the Government officers in PNG. Before the war, PNG was a territory of Australia and there many Government officers who elected to stay and help the natives against the Japanese. They would organise the natives to be porters, stretcherbearers - the "Fuzzy-wuzzy Angels", guides and even irregular troops. The Japanese, being Japanese treated the natives like scum and so they hated them with a passion.

I'd also like to mention the SBS in the Eastern Mediterranean. Created from the Commandos, they worked with the LRDG and the SAS to attack and capture swathes of enemy territory from the Axis forces opposing them - the Germans, the Italians and other Axis partners, they worked extensively with local Resistance and Partisan forces.

 

[MattII]

With Java in allied hands, aerial resupply can be provided for irregular troops on Borneo. Maybe sea resupply too, if they can set up a schedule.

 

[Dan]

On the question of Rationing in the UK, both during the war and post war.



One of the hardest things to understand for those who are not British, is that in Britain what you see is not necessarily what is going on. So while Charles the Third is the head of state, he has very little actual power, but does have significant power none the less. And so it was with rationing in the UK during the war, you really do have to look at what wasn’t rationed, and why to get the full picture. Britain had during WWII an extensive system of rationing, not only of food but clothing, fuels and domestic goods. But in this post I am only going to look at food rationing during WWII and in the post war period. And while there will be some differences between events ITTL and those of OTL, the similarities will outweigh any small differences. The reason for the introduction of rationing were simple, since the late Georgian period the British isles had not produced all the food stuffs it required, and had relied on increasing imports of feed the nation. This meant that when the Germans started to impose a blockade on Britain, the government given its WWI experience decided to introduce an ever increasing system of rationing.

The stated aim of which was to ensure the fair distribution of food and goods to the population, while at the same time reducing imports to only those essential and freeing up shipping for essential war supplies. And the measures taken were extensive, with bans on the importation of some fresh food stuffs, tropical fruits and citrus, hot climates fruits, you want pineapple, you can get it as long as it’s dried or canned. Beef which had normally been bought in chilled and hanging as a half carcass, now had to be frozen, dried or canned. So let us look at the system of food rationing in Britain during the war. Food was divided into four groups, unrationed, rationed by points, by value and a fixed amount. Unrationed food in Britain fell into different groups, fresh fruit and vegetables were only rationed by availability, and other than for root vegetables this meant seasonal, while dried and canned were domestically produced only. Fresh fish didn’t have any restrictions, other than price and the availability of transport, the extensive pre war fish trains that had run at high speeds to move fresh fish around the country were stopped, and there were strict rules about the distances that fresh fish could travel. Domestic preserved fish salted, smoked, pickled and canned were freely available, but imported preserved fish such as canned salmon, tuna and sardines were subjected to the points system.

So let us look at meat rationing, which at first glance appears to be simply, each individual was allowed to spend a fixed amount on meat each week and was free to choose what meat they bought, subject to availability. However the first caveat is one third of the purchase had to be preserved, which at the time principally meant tinned corned beef and spam, with occasional American tinned sausage meat. However what is meant by meat, well for the ration this was, beef, veal, mutton, lamb and pork, however ham and bacon were dealt with separately and a part of your fixed ration. And this is were the what wasn’t rationed comes into play, offal, poultry, wildfowl and game were all of ration, so if you could afford them and they were available you could have as much as you liked. If you had the money, contacts and the taste, you could supplement your meat diet with a mixture of chicken, partridge, rabbit, hare, venison, duck, goose, and various offals, such a kidney, liver, heart and the more plebeian trip. There was also horse meat, principally sold as pet meat for cats and dogs, but for the less picky or principled a nice substitute for beef. The same was also true of eggs, hens eggs and dried eggs were strictly rationed during the war, with only a fixed number available to civilians each month. However there was no restriction on the following, quail, duck, goose or seagull eggs, which if you could get hold off them, you could purchase as many of them as you want.

There are in addition more examples of similar work arounds available to those in the know, or with more catholic tastes. Just as few for example include cheese, tea, milk and others, all of which could be avoided if you knew how. The principle effect of this was on the middle class, who lacked the contacts, resources or tastes, plus their general high regard of the law, and their desire to avoid gaining a police record. If you were a member of the Northern Working Class, you would be used to eating tripe, and might not have the objections to eating some forms of offal that others had. For the members of the aristocracy and the upper classes, game and waterfowl were a common thing, along with some of the more unusual forms of cheese and milk. Our late Queen whose mother and father, the King and Queen during the war, and who made a very public statement of following the rationing regulations. Remembers that her wartime diet included a lot of rabbit and venison, which came from the Windsor estate. American visitors to the Royal Household noted that the food they were served was very poor, and there was a distinct lack of alcohol on offer. Note I seriously doubt that the King who was a known very heavy smoker, ever restricted his consumption of cigarettes to that imposed on his subjects.

Britain was very lucky that at no time did it have to impose rationing on ether potatoes or bread during the war. While the flower that was used in the production of bread was very different from that pre war or now. But it was only for a short time post war that as a result of external factors that led to bread being rationed for a short time. The difference between rationing in Britain and Germany was significant, both nations were subject to blockade, and both countries relied on imported food to make up their rations. However Britain imported its food from nations that didn’t have to impose restrictions on their own people, while Germany tended to strip other nations of their food supply, with no regard to the feeding of the locals. Britain while it did introduce a number of foods that the British hadn’t previously been accustomed to, the prime examples being spam and powdered eggs. Germany however had to invent a number of substitutes foods, to try to make up for lack of imports caused by the blockade, and they had started this pre war. The most famous of these was the wartime ersatz coffee that contained no coffee, were as in Britain tea while rationed was the real thing. Note coffee other than the infamous camp coffee essence, was never rationed in Britain, and SOE frequently sent packets of coffee beans into occupied territories to be used as bribes.

With the end of the war, not only did the American president Truman order ships at sea carrying essential supplies to Britain to turn around and sail back to the US. The Americans demanded that as from now the British made full payment on all goods imported from the United States. There was the additional problem of supplying food to the recently liberated territories and the British sector of conquered Germany. This was the primary reason why the British had to introduce bread rationing post war, along with the shortage of shipping. Once Labour had gotten into power, you had an ideological problem, there were many among the left of the Labour Party, who wanted to retain rationing, as a way to improve the health of the nation, and ensure what they saw as a fair distribution of food. There were as there is today those of the extreme left and right, who like the idea of imposing their values on the rest of society. And this along with the problems of paying for the imports, while building a new Jerusalem in Britain, made the continuation of rationing, very much an ideological idea in the post war Labour Party. Unfortunately for them these ideas didn’t sit well with the majority of the population, especially women who were sick and tired of trying to juggle the various ration books, with the demands of the family and their lives. And so eventually rationing was abolished, however the process by which it was done, meant that this was a disaster. Had Britain from 1946, slowly increased the ration in stages as more food became available, and at the same time reduced the various regulations on food production, the results would have in my opinion been far better.

RR.

Thank you for this. This is something I need to look into for another TL in the ASB section. As well as being informative, it's given me a few other avenues to look down.

Thank you.

 

[Kiwi Kezza]

Thank you for an interesting & enjoyable timeline. Currently on holiday in Malaysia (Sabah), from NZ.
Having gone for an hours "walk" through the rainforest on an actual prepared track I am feeling a little more forgiving to the Europeans who considered it impassible. And that was without full military kit - humidity was incredible.

 

[Merrick]

On the subject of Intelligence/Special Operations, a better British (and Dutch) performance in SE Asia is liable to affect how the Americans approach the area. They're much more likely to commit assets if Borneo/Celebes looks like the quickest route back to the Philippines, rather than (as OTL) slogging through the Solomons and New Guinea.

Also OTL, US diplomacy was opposed to continuing/resumed European colonial rule - to the point of actively sabotaging their allies' intelligence efforts in the East Indies and Indochina.
If Java is still holding, the US will likely feel more inhibited in working to undermine the Dutch (plus once accounts of the occupation start coming out of Borneo and Celebes, the Indonesian nationalist movement is likely to be less keen on "liberation" by the IJA).

 

[MattII]

On the subject of Intelligence/Special Operations, a better British (and Dutch) performance in SE Asia is liable to affect how the Americans approach the area. They're much more likely to commit assets if Borneo/Celebes looks like the quickest route back to the Philippines, rather than (as OTL) slogging through the Solomons and New Guinea.

Also OTL, US diplomacy was opposed to continuing/resumed European colonial rule - to the point of actively sabotaging their allies' intelligence efforts in the East Indies and Indochina.
If Java is still holding, the US will likely feel more inhibited in working to undermine the Dutch (plus once accounts of the occupation start coming out of Borneo and Celebes, the Indonesian nationalist movement is likely to be less keen on "liberation" by the IJA).

Given the fact that allied forces are doing well, they might not feel the need to start up such insurgencies to begin with.

 

[Salamander]

Japanese military diet was rice and tinned fish, Japan had one of the largest fishing fleets in the Pacific during this time. While these two items are easy to ship, the issue was the Japanese logistical system prioritised ammunition. Their principle bulk transport was ship to train then, from there it was horse/oxen and cart, bicycle and porters who were usually press ganged. So unit had to forage which inevitably meant taking food from the local population. Who quickly learned to hide food away.

This is one of the fastest ways to turn even an overwhelmingly supportive civilian population that welcomes you as a liberator against you.

 

[Thoresby]

This is one of the fastest ways to turn even an overwhelmingly supportive civilian population that welcomes you as a liberator against you.

People don't like it when you take their stuff. That was one of the great advantages that the Allies had during the war, their logistics system was entirely self contained and far from taking stuff from the civilian population, whether in the Far East, France, Italy or even Germany they provided food, fuel and other material goods, often in vast quantities.

 

[marathag]

People don't like it when you take their stuff. That was one of the great advantages that the Allies had during the war, their logistics system was entirely self contained and far from taking stuff from the civilian population, whether in the Far East, France, Italy or even Germany they provided food, fuel and other material goods, often in vast quantities.

See Cargo Cults in the Pacific

 

[kelgar04]

See Cargo Cults in the Pacific

Yeah it's amazing that the US send formations to the Pacific with cold weather gear. They could have used that in France.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

The extent to which Australian and New Zealand special forces will be involved in the South West Pacific region, is very much dependent on Japanese actions in the region. If they the Japanese launch a series of attacks similar to those that carried out IOTL, and enjoy the same measure of success as they did. Then there will be similar deployments as there was of Australian and New Zealand special forces in the region. However if given the changed circumstances of TTL, the Japanese fail to exploit this region, then the Australian special forces will be far more integrated with the British. Without a Japanese incursion into the region, there will be very little need for the Coastwatching service, and the various officials and businessmen will be able to remain in post. As to the involvement of the French in the Far East conflict, IOTL it was very limited, not only were the British seen to be failing, the ongoing conflict in North Africa absorbed the majority of Free French interests. ITTL, the much better performance of the British, and the ability of various patriotic young Frenchmen to escape the Japanese occupation, and get to British controlled territory, will see greater French participation. Remember that during both the French Indochina conflict and the subsequent American involvement in the Vietnam war, a major effort was devoted to preventing smuggling by the various Boat Peoples of the South China Sea. And ITTL, there is no doubt going to be extensive cooperation between these various groups which will be used by the British to both infiltrate and extract personnel and equipment into a out of both FIC, Thailand and the Philippines, which will leave a huge mess to sort out Post War.

As for Southern China, as has been pointed out the Japanese never gained complete control over the region. And there will be significant areas where the Allied forces can establish safe zones, which will be effectively under their control. Given the comparative wealth of the Allies over the Japanese, the ability to buy the loyalty of the locals, and pay for a mercenary guard force, is going to vary much a game changer. The British will have access to both gold sovereigns and silver dollars, which given the state of the economy and just how valueless ether Chinese or Japanese paper money was, will make them financially the emperor’s. And note it will be predominantly the British who are running things, not only will they want to establish contacts with Hong Kong. They will be looking to facilitate an escape route for their own subjects along with other Europeans trapped behind the Japanese lines. And once contact has been established with Hong Kong, principally with the Anglo Chinese, and some of the better known criminal gangs. Work will begin to prepare for the eventual liberation of the colony, while at the same time extricating as much relevant information as possible. Once the British have removed the Japanese from Malaya and coastal Thailand, and started to attack FIC, a submarine that had set out from Singapore, can refuel from a tanker/supply ship somewhere in the south of FIC, and head north to the southern coast of China, where it will be able to put ashore teams in areas that have no or little Japanese occupation forces. By mid 1943 the Japanese will be fighting not only the Chinese Nationalists in mainland China, but also various special forces along the coast.

The question has arisen as to what changes will occur to the American stance in the region, as a result of the recent changes in the performance of the British ITTL. First of without the necessity of supporting the air bridge into China, the Burma road remaining open no need for the air bridge. There will be no need for any American forces to be stationed in India, or large scale American military operations in Burma. Which avoids the subsequent confusion over command in Burma, as the now IBM, India, Burma, Malaya command will be essentially British. And with no American presence or involvement there will be no American special forces or OSS in the area. The same will be true of the DEI, and FIC, which saw the deployment of OSS teams IOTL, who in accordance with the American anti colonial stance, promoted local independence movements. Such units also operated in Malaya IOTL, and post war the British expelled the CIA agents from Malaya, during the Malayan Emergency, as they were working with the CT’s, Communist Terrorists. In FIC were as IOTL, there were OSS teams infiltrating from China, who supported a curtain Uncle Ho, ITTL it will be French and British BCDA/SOE teams that infiltrate from sea who are running any resistance movement. The South China Sea will be effectively a British dominated region, up until the invasion of the Philippines. And it will only be after that, that and the move of the British Far East Fleet into the waters north of the Philippines and South of Japan, that the complexity of solving the command structure of the combined forces will be sorted out. Note that the British are not going to totally subsume command of their Fleet to America command as they did with the British Pacific Fleet IOTL, ITTL they have their own legitimate interests in the region, principally the relief of Hong Kong. No British commander is going to accept orders from the American command to divert a British Task Force from actions to aid the relief of Hong Kong, to four-fill an American priority. All in all there will be very little American involvement in the region India, Burma, Malaya, DEI, and FIC, and the complexities of sorting out the command structure once the combined American British Fleets are operational in and around the Japanese homeland are going to cause serious headaches.

RR.

 

[Derek Pullem]

If Malaya holds and the Japanese then have to be forced out of Borneo and DEI I suspect British and Empire Special Forces will have more than enough things to do than worry about about irritating the Japanese in China. If Borneo and DEI are by 1943 then the pressure on the Americans to do the same for the Philippines will be huge. And again special forces are more likely to be used here than in China.

If Philippines are captured earlier then the whole island hopping campaign may be bypassed in favour of Formosa / Okinawa (with maybe a detour to Hong Kong). Again - I can't see a large mainland China campaign

 

[Mark1878]

If Philippines are captured earlier then the whole island hopping campaign may be bypassed in favour of Formosa / Okinawa (with maybe a detour to Hong Kong). Again - I can't see a large mainland China campaign

I agree with the last point no large China campaign - but then this is an area to use special forces, although not in the way of directly fighting the Japanese but to help Chinese fight the Japanese.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

If Malaya holds and the Japanese then have to be forced out of Borneo and DEI I suspect British and Empire Special Forces will have more than enough things to do than worry about about irritating the Japanese in China. If Borneo and DEI are by 1943 then the pressure on the Americans to do the same for the Philippines will be huge. And again special forces are more likely to be used here than in China.

If Philippines are captured earlier then the whole island hopping campaign may be bypassed in favour of Formosa / Okinawa (with maybe a detour to Hong Kong). Again - I can't see a large mainland China campaign

Sir I respectfully disagree with you, while I am not advocating a major campaign by special forces in Southern China, I am of the opinion that the return on investment of such a campaign would be large. For the investment of a few tens of people, and a minimum of equipment, supplies and financing, the Japanese will be forced to expend significant resources themselves. They have to ether pay mercenaries, or deploy their own troops to retain any form of control over the region. Thus in the end the deployment of a few, will require the Japanese to deploy thousands of their own troops, all of which would be better used elsewhere.

RR.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Sir I respectfully disagree with you, while I am not advocating a major campaign by special forces in Southern China, I am of the opinion that the return on investment of such a campaign would be large. For the investment of a few tens of people, and a minimum of equipment, supplies and financing, the Japanese will be forced to expend significant resources themselves. They have to ether pay mercenaries, or deploy their own troops to retain any form of control over the region. Thus in the end the deployment of a few, will require the Japanese to deploy thousands of their own troops, all of which would be better used elsewhere.

RR.

I agree with the last point no large China campaign - but then this is an area to use special forces, although not in the way of directly fighting the Japanese but to help Chinese fight the Japanese.

It's not that they couldn't be useful - it's a question of where they would be most use to the Allied war effort. Which I suspect will be mostly along the future line of advance rather than be sucked into the China war.

 

[focus9912]

Such units also operated in Malaya IOTL, and post war the British expelled the CIA agents from Malaya, during the Malayan Emergency, as they were working with the CT’s, Communist Terrorists.

RR.

Huh...that is the first time I actually heard about the fact that the CIA actually had an activity in Malaya during the war. I though that the supply of weapons and training in regards to the resistance forces were handled by just the British side of the command.

Perhaps you could provide some sources in regards to this... for leisure reading material during this weekend...?

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Huh...that is the first time I actually heard about the fact that the CIA actually had an activity in Malaya during the war. I though that the supply of weapons and training in regards to the resistance forces were handled by just the British side of the command.

Perhaps you could provide some sources in regards to this... for leisure reading material during this weekend...?

Sir while I desperately try to remember where I saw the information that the local CIA operative was involved with the Communists in Malaya, it might have been the book War of the Running Dogs. I would like to point out a mistake in your post, officially there wasn’t an independence war in Malaya, it was always referred to as the Malayan Incident. This was for insurance reasons, as the various insurance companies didn’t have to pay out for war damage, but did if the damage was due to an incident. In the same way, the British administration noted that if you referred to the locals as freedom fighters, independence fighters or guerrillas, they tended to win. And so they were always referred to as CT’s, Communist Terrorists, the British having far more experience in conducting COIN operations than the Americans, had a wealth of experience to draw upon.

RR.