I could see a militarist Greece forming honestly they may already be walking down this road with the growth of the nationalist party and growth of revanchism in Greece but a Greece like Prussia with a noble class. I don't see Greece reinstating the noble class because of I not sure there any or enough to reinstate any noble class, there be massive resistance from all the new free landowners who also were just given land by the government, this system not sure would work in the modern age. This is not mentioning that lepeod would prob not be for it and the new liberal government. Also, the fact that the current democratic system is working quite well and a democratic tradition/ ethos.What about after they've re-established themselves as a normal nation state and started industrializing? With more industrialization and modernization shouldn't their population boom. Can the new Basileus even grant tax credits and rebates to large families who have many children? Could they pull off a Prussia where despite their small size and poor conditions, they become highly militarized. Could Greece with its various Rhomaion nobles have the Emperor pulls a Frederick I and orients them toward serving the state through military service while re-instating the old bureaucracy that allowed the empire to coordinate its resources in a 1000 year struggle against its enemies? Greece like Prussia was surrounded by enemies on all sides and is in a poor geographic position and when it was invaded by foreign powers both allied and hostile it was ravaged. I think that if they Prussianize to never fall victim to invasion again, I think they have a shot at restoring the empire. But how would they throw off the negative perception of the West that views them as Hellenes? There was 300 years of propaganda calling them Byzantines and after the schism the West forgot about its scientific and cultural and military achievements under the Isaurians, the Macedonians, and Komnenoi. So how will the rest of the world and especially Italy react to a successful Greece restoring the Roman Empire. Most people thought it fell in 476 when it in fact fell in 1453. Its 1461 if you count Trebizond.
Further north than Monastir seems... counterproductive.
Since they’ve taken in a lot more Slavic speakers, though, and since the immigrations of Anatolian Greeks into the area are likely butterflied, Greece will probably accept the existence of “Slavophone Greeks” and not take linguistically repressive measures in the area like they did historically. .
First that neither the Greek state nor the Greek educational establishment/local community leaders bothered in the slightest over preserving the language any more than they cared over the Cappadocian Greeks preserving Karamanli (where the Church and community schools made a concetrated effort since the 1890s at least to re-introduce Greek in place of Turkish). In their view it was just a matter of the Greek populations that had been forced to use Slavic/Turkish/whatever switching back to Greek.
Second that very obviously there were Slavic speaking populations loyal to the Bulgarian side along with the ones loyal to the Greek side.
Now fast forward to the late 30s and 40s. With the logic described above who's still slavophone? People that are loyal Greeks but did not have the chance to get educated... but these wont mind Greek education and the gradual switch to Greek, quite the opposite! And people loyal to Bulgaria... why these will be insisting on retaining the language, won't they? Ergo everyone insisting on retaining the language is probably not loyal! Not exactly a good combination before even taking it account the effects of the wars.
And from the Bulgarian perspective, it was wealthy Greek merchants in the towns trying to force their language onto the Bulgarian rural folk. That narrative worked well where the Greek education and sympathy was already tenuous...
That mostly came down to the religious divide in the end, didn’t it?
That does explain how the Greek mindset towards the lingering Slavic speakers got so bad, thanks.
In this ATL, though, I suspect that Hellenization will go much more slowly in Macedonia thanks to the lack of Anatolian immigration. That’s why I’m wondering if Greece may not eventually just “give up” on trying to change the language in the region.
"Ours is great honest peasant stock not like these Greek/Jews/Armenians moneylenders/merchants etc". It extended quite beyond Bulgarian nationalists, to Turkish ones as far as the Greeks were concerned for example and the rhetoric tended to be similar against the mercantile nation.
Of course this could backfire in bad ways. Frex in the lead up to the 2nd Balkan war Savov was claiming the Greeks were an army of peddlers and traders who couldn't stand up to his army and he'd capture Thessaloniki within 9 hours from the start of the war. Within said 9 hours his own troops in Thessaloniki had surrendered and 8 Greek divisions marching on him. Talk about badly underestimating the enemy...
That shouldn't be so surprising when the church had been the one organizing authority of the communities in question for centuries. I'd add it's not quite unique to the former Ottoman empire either. Case in point Ireland.
I wouldn't go that far so fast. For a simple mental exercise remove the Asia Minor refugees from the area. What became Greek Macedonia, still has about 513,000 Greeks against about 104,000 Bulgarians in 1913. Out of the latter about 53,000 would be exchanged with 49,000 Bulgarian Greeks post Neully and by the 1928 census "Slav speaking Orthodox Christians" were about 82,000. So we can surmise a split of about 50,000 pro-Bulgarian to 30,000 pro-Greek within their population. Bulgarian sources claimed about 300,000 which is probably quite exaggerated... but even if we take it at face value it still means a slight majority speaking Greek as a first language and up to a third speaking both (if we subtract the 82,000 of the 1928 census from the 300,000 claimed) The Greek schools did win their fight in the area in the two generations prior to 1928...
It's no bother at all. The next update is essentially done, I'm just in the process of tidying it up a bit, removing the unnecessary minutia, and adding pictures. So I'd say sometime tomorrow.Bit off topic, but how is the next update coming along? No rush, just curious.
Cool thanks for replying! Take all the time you need, can't wait to get back to Greece!It's no bother at all. The next update is essentially done, I'm just in the process of tidying it up a bit, removing the unnecessary minutia, and adding pictures. So I'd say sometime tomorrow.
Well the Kingdom of Greece's population is already ahead of their OTL counterpart. In the 1848 Census in OTL Greece had a population of 986,731 whereas in this timeline it was around 1.31 million. Now most of this difference is a result of the additional territories Greece has ITTL compared to OTL, like Crete, Chios, Samos, etc, but there is still a difference of several tens of thousands of people. This difference is largely a result of a better economic situation in Greece ITTL and less instability compared to OTL which has encourage more people to have more children, but for now it still remains quite small. But as Greece continues to industrialize and develop, it should increase.
Quick question will the northern border include Northern Epirus ( the part of Epirus in Albania)?
Ah, that makes sense. Definitely reminds me of anti-Semitism in many parts of the world.
Seriously? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, nationalism is a hell of a drug. “The great Yamato war spirit will overcome the lazy Americans” and so on...
That’s true. So the question is, with the added influence and power of Greece ITTL how many more churches across the Balkans will side with the Patriarchate?
Those numbers are heavily slanted by the densities, though. The Greeks dominated the coasts and in greater numbers overall, but in the interior is where the Slavic speakers were more concentrated as far as I can tell. It was in the interior, too, where there was significant popular support for the Bulgarian/Macedonian Slavic cause.
And adding Monastir and other more inland regions will just make the situation worse: a Survey I found of Monastir Vilayet suggests there were 150,000 Exarchate followers to 50,000 Patriachal followers, all of them Slavic speakers, in 1897.
Sounds like the author might have more ambitious plans regarding Albania—an autonomous Albania within a Greek-led Balkan Confederation, possibly. In that situation Greece might just split Northern Epirus in half or something.
Nevertheless, every effort was taken to house and feed these refugees at a great expense to the Greek Government initially, however, over time their services to the Greek state would prove enormous. Among their number were several hundred engineers and architects, artisans and artists, doctors and professors who quickly found work in Greece, building roads and bridges, creating works of art and composing symphonies, treating the sick, and teaching the young. They would also provide a much-needed boost to Greece’s nascent industrial sector, its media industry, the Greek Military, and the Hellenic Socialist party which rapidly grew from a small clique of fringe activists and intellectuals to a few thousand supporters by the start of 1850.