You are probably more right than you know Hertog.

The rebels occupied that land in 1855, and it wasn't officially transferred to Greece until 1858. As there were likely no official greek police or army officials during that period, and I doubt the turks would bother wasting men during a war to secure land they were going to give away, Security was probably entirely up to the rebels.

As you can imagine a bunch of nationalist rebels running a place for 3 years would hardly be kind to the local muslims. In fact I would be surprised if "officially" there was a single muslim left in the areas left. All of them are likely to be dead, fled, or forcefully converted, though there may be reversions once proper state control is established.

I sure hope the greek government stepped in a little to help the rebels administrate at least, because I doubt they would have done a good job themselves. As the rebels were deeply supported by the greek army, unofficially of course, they would probably welcome the help with open arms. Otherwise, those new provinces will be a real mess.

In regards to the dodecanese, as they were transferred quickly, and never held by nationalists, the muslims of that land would probably not be overly affected. Though I would guess a significant portion would depart upon the rest of the muslim civil service leaving.
 
In regards to the dodecanese, as they were transferred quickly, and never held by nationalists, the muslims of that land would probably not be overly affected. Though I would guess a significant portion would depart upon the rest of the muslim civil service leaving.
The Island Chain wasnt even named the dodecanese during this period

I trust the greek parliament with knowing Greek history
and Inside the document it states that the name "Dodecanese was in use mainly from 1908
 

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I sure hope the greek government stepped in a little to help the rebels administrate at least, because I doubt they would have done a good job themselves. As the rebels were deeply supported by the greek army, unofficially of course, they would probably welcome the help with open arms. Otherwise, those new provinces will be a real mess.
Some temporary administration was almost certainly set up if Epirus and Thessaly remained under rebel control between 1855 and 1858 which is not entirely clear to me was the case. The closest example we have was the Cretan rebels in 1866-69 and this was anything but a disorganized affair with a general assembly of the Cretans declaring the revolution and setting up a provisional government. And any provisional government would be very careful with European public opinion and giving a good show for the British and French consuls in the area...
 
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Greek government stepped in at the border and coastal regions of Thessaly and Epirus with the tacit approval of the Ottomans to protect the Muslim citizenry that lived there. That said I doubt the Ottomans would let them help administer and/or police the majority of the territory regardless of what happens to the Muslims there as they’d view it as the Greeks trying to claim their prize early and stab them in the back. So probably the Muslims in the interiors best chance is to flee to the coast, the Ottoman boarder, or the Greek border. Whatever’s the closest. Could be interesting If they stay in Greece and a slight improvement of the view Balkans Muslims have of the Greek government if they’re seen protecting them.

All of that is Unlikely I know but the Greeks might feel a bit magnanimous after the treaty. And them being slightly more accepting of Muslims now could have a big effect on how the World views them down the line if the Ottomans attempt to hurt the Greeks that still live in the Empire.
 
One discussion that is important were analyzing a society, is its inheritance system. You can see social, economical and political ramifications of the nature of the inheritance system.

Greeks follow a partible inheritance system. Sons and daughters are supposed to receive an equal share of their family's estate. In the past, daughters received mostly moveable goods or cash as a dowry but also land in many cases. It is a social norm deeply ingrained in the greek psyche that a parent should provide for all his children. Changing the inheritance system was never even considered AFAIK and remained the same for centuries.

But what does it mean for our author's awesome story? The combination of inheritance law and terrain led to an incredible fragmentation of agricultural land and small landholdings. Inheritance lead as well to fragmentation according to ecological zones: One son gets the good grain field and another the small olive tree plantation on the hillside. So, lets say a farmer has in total 5 acres of land scattered all around a certain area (we are talking about that small landholding): he may have 1 acre of vines in a place and 2 km away he has a 2 acres wheat field and in a third place he has another 2 acres of olive trees. In reality, you could see plots of land a small as 1/4 or even 1/8 of an acre.

You can see how having both too little land and have said land scattered all around may affect agriculture. E.g. today in Corinth, the average exporting table grape farm is 5 acres. The average exporting table grape farm in Spain is 300 acres (source: Aristos Doxiadis, "The Invisible Rift). The only way to remain competitive is by focusing on quality and some members of the farming family to have side jobs.

Frankly, there is no permanent solution to this problem, until you get to the modern age, when only a very small percentage of the population is farmers. So, lets say 1980s at best. Before this date there are only two temporary solutions:

The first solution is redistribution of land by clustering together the tiny plots to larger units. So the farmer of the above example, he would have again 5 acres but in a single plot. The proble is that such redistribution is hard to pull off, because you cannot really be fair: some people would get the best land and some the marginal. Moreover, with the inheritance being as it is, in 3 generations you will have tiny scattered plots again.

The other solution is to get more agricultural land. This can be achieved either by reclaiming swamps and other marginal land, or by exporting farmers to a newlly annexed province. When Venizelos envisioned settling poor farmers from the Peloponnese and Central Greece to Anatolia, it was not a european-style colonial notion. It was due to the incredibly pressure of having a large population of subsistence farmers that had too little land to survive. Therefore, as you see, the inheritance system produces a constant stream of settlers or immigrants. Combine it with the high birth rates we mentioned in previous posts and you can see what it means...


 
Greeks follow a partible inheritance system. Sons and daughters are supposed to receive an equal share of their family's estate. In the past, daughters received mostly moveable goods or cash as a dowry but also land in many cases. It is a social norm deeply ingrained in the greek psyche that a parent should provide for all his children. Changing the inheritance system was never even considered AFAIK and remained the same for centuries
That is true but most of the time the inheritance is settled through the will of the departed person or through the agreement of all the Children on who gets what

In an industrialising society such as Greece land is continuing to be worth less and less as the economy is diversifying and more economic opportunities start to appear

For Greece I would say the best option is to stop giving land as a dowrie to women and instead substitute that land with money instead(it will keep the lands relatively whole and allow for a larger share for the sons of the family but will also give the women something worth in industrial societies,Capital)

When Venizelos envisioned settling poor farmers from the Peloponnese and Central Greece to Anatolia, it was not a european-style colonial notion. It was due to the incredibly pressure of having a large population of subsistence farmers that had too little land to survive. Therefore, as you see, the inheritance system produces a constant stream of settlers or immigrants. Combine it with the high birth rates we mentioned in previous posts and you can see what it means
That will prove useful in Epirus and Thessaly where there is a lot of land available and a lot of Marshes that will be cleared in the future
 
For Greece I would say the best option is to stop giving land as a dowrie to women and instead substitute that land with money instead(it will keep the lands relatively whole and allow for a larger share for the sons of the family but will also give the women something worth in industrial societies,Capital)
In poor households, dowry used to be linen, clothing, furniture etc. In more wealthy households land and gold was included. It is ASB to simply stop giving land to women, as it was a deeply ingrained custom that survived extreme poverty. In any case, even just the equal inheritance among the sons creates the same situation.

In an industrialising society such as Greece land is continuing to be worth less and less as the economy is diversifying and more economic opportunities start to appear
Greece can be much more industrially developed than in OTL. It is already. But Greece can never become as industrialized as the major industrial countries. Firstly, it lacks hard coal. The iron deposits are rather small. The only really competitive industry it can have is aluminium, but it will be a thing of the future, perhaps in the 1920s. Moreover, Greece lacks a large internal market at least for the next few decades. Even in the best case senario, industry cannot absorb the excess farmers, not until a much larger Greece comes into play.
 
I wonder if we will see an Eleftherios Venizelos in TTL. With the radically different situation (Crete liberated in 1830), if he arises, he will be a completely different person.
 
In poor households, dowry used to be linen, clothing, furniture etc. In more wealthy households land and gold was included. It is ASB to simply stop giving land to women, as it was a deeply ingrained custom that survived extreme poverty. In any case, even just the equal inheritance among the sons creates the same situation.
I said the best option was to stop givi g land to women,not that it should be done,furthermore if land is going to be cut anyway then it is best cut in as less pieces as it can
Greece can be much more industrially developed than in OTL. It is already. But Greece can never become as industrialized as the major industrial countries
really it depends on what greece wants to focus on,does it want to focus on ligth or heavy industry,both will probably sprang up,thougth there will probably be a focus on ligth industry rather than heavy
Greece can be much more industrially developed than in OTL. It is already. But Greece can never become as industrialized as the major industrial countries. Firstly, it lacks hard coal. The iron deposits are rather small
And?it can Import Raw Materials and Export Finished goods
Even in the best case senario, industry cannot absorb the excess farmers, not until a much larger Greece comes into play.
that is true but again given that the economy is diversifying and the internal market is bigger, the economic prospects are a lot better than otl and i never said the industry will absorb all the farmers
 
I wonder if we will see an Eleftherios Venizelos in TTL. With the radically different situation (Crete liberated in 1830), if he arises, he will be a completely different person.
We can probably see someone similar to him. If I was making a guess TTL Venizelos equivalent will be Cypriot. ..
 
Greece can be much more industrially developed than in OTL. It is already. But Greece can never become as industrialized as the major industrial countries. Firstly, it lacks hard coal. The iron deposits are rather small. The only really competitive industry it can have is aluminium, but it will be a thing of the future, perhaps in the 1920s. Moreover, Greece lacks a large internal market at least for the next few decades. Even in the best case senario, industry cannot absorb the excess farmers, not until a much larger Greece comes into play.
TTL Greece is in an interesting spot, given that it has start industrializing in the window between the initial industrial revolution and widespread steamship usage making free British exports strongly competitive to local industries without a strong protectionist policy. That's quite convenient to say the least. That said Greek industrialization would necessarily concentrate mostly on light industries given the lack of high quality coal ad adversely affecting any efforts to have a large scale steel industry. Italy and Spain are probably the best models here.
 
@Bloodmage , indeed light industry -along with some heavy- is the way to go. Lets find some examples.

In OTL, Ioannina had many tanners. The annexation of Epirus provided Greece with a million sheep, goats and cattle. An organized tanning industry in Epirus could be a boon.

Volos or should I say Demetrias, could become the major wheat product producer in Greece, as in OTL. By wheat products, I mea flour and pasta.

Lastly, if the agrarian issue in Thessaly is solved early on, then Volos has a good chance of developing a decent cotton industry.

The main problem of the light industry would be lack of capital in OTL. ITTL, there is an early paradigm shift of rich Greeks investing in industry and not just commerce. This development would certainly help in finding the needed capital.

The next challenge is to train enough Greek engineers. However, with the earlier university and Kapodistrias' focus on technical education, steps have been taken.

What remains as a problem is the need to import machinery. If Greece manages to produce its own machinery, the there is a very bright future for greek textiles in the Balkans and Near East.

Here is a very interesting paper on the greek textile industry.
 
@Bloodmage , indeed light industry -along with some heavy- is the way to go. Lets find some examples.

In OTL, Ioannina had many tanners. The annexation of Epirus provided Greece with a million sheep, goats and cattle. An organized tanning industry in Epirus could be a boon.

Volos or should I say Demetrias, could become the major wheat product producer in Greece, as in OTL. By wheat products, I mea flour and pasta.

Lastly, if the agrarian issue in Thessaly is solved early on, then Volos has a good chance of developing a decent cotton industry.

The main problem of the light industry would be lack of capital in OTL. ITTL, there is an early paradigm shift of rich Greeks investing in industry and not just commerce. This development would certainly help in finding the needed capital.

The next challenge is to train enough Greek engineers. However, with the earlier university and Kapodistrias' focus on technical education, steps have been taken.

What remains as a problem is the need to import machinery. If Greece manages to produce its own machinery, the there is a very bright future for greek textiles in the Balkans and Near East.
It should I think. Piraeus was called even in OTL Manchester of the east and steam engines and other machinery were locally built even in OTL, take the Basileiadis machinery and shipyard for example. Which come to think of it was established in OTL in 1860 and its founder George Basileiadis had been born in 1811. TTL I can easily see creation of his works accelerated by a decade and growing way more than OTL. Perhaps our wily Odysseus (Androutsos) invests part of his Laurion gains into this? Very much in character to see the potential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basileiades

Training engineers... the Athens polytechnic is already around IMS and I'm confident of the quality of its graduates, well I could be biased of course being a graduate of the Thessaloniki one myself. :) TTL with Greece being significantly richer hopefully the idiocy of closing the Ionian academy could be avoided and then a second polytechnic attached to it in a decade or two.
 
First I should preface this by informing all of you that the next chapter will be posted later today, but before I do I should tell that it will be shorter than originally intended.

Initially, I had planned on covering both the start of the Second Anglo-Persian War and the Sepoy Mutiny, as well as briefly cover the other fronts of the Great Eurasian War not mentioned in Part 78. Instead, I cut it in half as it was becoming rather long for my liking. As such, the chapter being posted today will cover the first half of the update featuring the start of the Anglo-Persian War and the Start of the Sepoy Mutiny and I'll have the second half (covering the Baltic front, the Central Asian Front, the Far East Front, and North American Front) posted either tomorrow or on Tuesday at the latest.

And here's the updated GIF. Greece has certainly come a long way since Leopold arrived:
Wow Gian, this is truly amazing! Thank you so much for this.

Will Greece get its debt forgiven or will the interest on the debt be lowered?
Part of the treaty Greece signed with Great Britain involved a review of Greece's debts, which will more than likely result in the forgiveness or lowering of some of their current debts.

If i am not mistaken there some lingite deposits in elassona just south of the river aliakmon..do the new borders include this area?
Yes, Elassona should now be a part of Greece as it is south of the Olympus Range.
Greek Congo maybe?

Looks like we might break out the immortal line from Patríkios Loumoummpa from 1960: "Δεν είμαστε πλέον οι πίθηκοί σας." /"Den eínaste pléon i píthikí sas." (We are no longer your monkeys.)
I think it is ASB...
The only colonial adventure that was given any thought in OTL was Cyrenaica, due to its proximity, strategic location, low population density for settling farmers and sponge fishing.
Yeah true,honestly greece can gain all the resources it needs from Britain and Russia(given the relation that it has with them)its not that difficult and it will be much better than engaging in expensive colonial ventures.

Furthermore I can see how such an action can spark outrage in the greek population("we overthrew the turks,so that we can overlord other ethnicities a world away")really if greece engages in colonial ventures it will be over islands that it can use as trade depots around the world and further its trading interests.

Dont get me wrong Greeks can understand Strategic and economic value and if there was such a colony they would perhaps acquire it,but why would they need colonies for prestige,The only prestige that they want is Rhomania,Konstantinoupolis

I can see some lease happen with Ethiopia given that they are both Christian nations,where greece helps Ethiopia modernise and Ethiopia gives trading privileges to greek merchants.(though such a thing would probably be unlikely given that there are other much better alternatives (ie britain,france) ).
And that only very limited thought. Although back in shwi-isot I had created a Greek Congo. Or the beginnings of one anyway. 🙄
I can confirm that Greek Congo isn't going to happen ITTL, but Greece might dabble in a little imperialism during the late 19th/early 20th Centuries if it plays its cards right. That said, it will be very limited (if it happens at all, I haven't decided on this yet) and would likely be limited to Cyrenaica or a few isolated islands to use as coaling stations for their merchant fleet.

So, is Sazan still greek after the changes in the map?
Technically yes, as they are considered a part of the Ionian Islands, but in reality it will likely fall under the occupation of the Ottoman Empire as per OTL as it is still too far from Greece's holdings in Northern Epirus and too close to Ottoman Albania to be realistically held by Greece at this time.

Will the Japanese embassy to Europe pass by Greece given that it is quite the Trade giant in the European Markets(hellenic steamship company)?
Cultivating a relationship with an ascendant oriental power is something that greece ought to do


Yes, there will be some interaction between Greece and Japan, but it will likely be limited to commerce and trade for the immediate future.

Will Greece be making a lot of money from supplying the British?
Without the French in the game, the British have to find alternate sources of supplies, ranging from fodder to food, alcohol or canvas. Everything the British need must either come from Britain or bought locally. Normally, the OE could provide the vast majority of british needs, but now with the battles fought in imperial territory and the need to massively expand and supply its army, I guess they cannot provide for the British as well. Lastly, the british will have to use the greek ports and charter greek merchantmen for logistics. Without the French, the British will have to either pull out more of their own merchantment from their lucrative trade routes or charter greek ships to support the Black Sea theater. I guess many Greek shipowners will make a fortune hauling cargo for Old Albion.
Yes, Greece will definitely make a good amount of money as it will essentially provide whatever the Ottomans and the British can't. While this may not seem like much on the surface, the British logistical network during the OTL Crimean War was an absolute nightmare of ineptitude and inefficiency especially during the first winter outside Sevastopol. The biggest issues for the British in OTL were a shortage of winter clothes, firewood/coal, medical supplies, food, and drink, all of which Greece can provide to varying degrees. That said, Greece's material support of the British won't fix all their issues, as most were a result of needless bureaucracy and poor planning (the use of Balaklava as Britain's main port in the Crimea was a terrible decision), but it should definitely help especially since the fighting is limited primarily to Bulgaria and Eastern Anatolia right now.

With the Greeks providing copious supplies to the British, what are the chances that many veterans pick up a taste for Greek wine or even ouzo?
I'd say that's almost a certainty.

Been away for a little while, but damn has Greece been busy! That’s one hell of a land grab from the Ottomans—the Ionians we all expected, but Thessaly? Epirus? They got really lucky.

Lucky enough that I really want to say that I expect the Ottomans to react to the changed situation, rather significantly. IOTL the divvying up of Ottoman Europe, negotiated by great powers, didn’t even begin until 1878. Here it’s twenty years earlier, and arguably in more core territory; Yanina at least was at one point a rather significant part of the Empire. Losing all of this territory, without even fighting for it mind you, should cause something of a panic in Kostantiniyye. I understand they’re not in a position to do anything about it right now, but once the war’s over I would not be surprised to see an earlier rise of Young Turks, or something like them.

I decided to look this up a little bit, and although it’s true that the Albanian national movement hadn’t really hit its stride yet some sources say it had already begun as an intellectual movement in the 1830s-40s, much like elsewhere in the Balkans. However, it’s definitely early enough in the timeline to affect it significantly, and I can see something of a path forward where the southern Albanians end up courted by the Greek cultural sphere and join their Souliote cousins in assimilating without too much issue. On the other hand, the diehard Albanian nationalists that will inevitably exist eventually will claim all of the Albanian-speaking land, and I can see TTL’s debate of the Albanian national identity focused on its northern half. If we want to get really weird—a conflict between Greece and Serbia over it?
Glad to have you back Cmakk. Indeed, Greece got more than even I expected them to get initially, but in all honesty it was probably a fair deal for all involved, although I'm sure the Ottomans don't see it that way. Thessaly and Epirus were not exactly the most prosperous or populous provinces within the Ottoman Empire during the mid-19th Century and while their loss will certainly sting for the Sublime Porte, not having to fight a two front war is certainly worth it, provided they manage to survive relatively intact. That said, there will definitely be growing resentment towards Greece in the Ottoman Empire once the war is over.

man idk of Greece messed up or not but that shit right their is extortion in my book and you can bet your ass Britain and the Ottoman Empire will remember that. Especially if Russia loses, you can expect groups in both empires will look at little Greece and think about how to punish it for its... impudence seems appropriate.
You'd think they might, but if you look at it from another angle, it's kind of a win-win for both countries as the Ottomans cut their losses on two hick regions that are more often than not a hornet's nest of rebels and rabblerousers (at least they kept Macedonia and the rest of Albania), while Britain saves itself from another quagmire in the Aegean that it has to deal with, especially with Russia still around (not to mention saving the Anglo-Greek alliance from falling apart).
Nationalists will never see losing any land, even hick, poor, rebellious land, as a good. There’ll inevitably be at least a faction in the empire that sees these losses as disgraceful and, honestly, something to be reversed if they can, much like with Egypt. I’m very curious to see what happens with the Bulgarians as well on this front in a few decades.
Britain won’t care much imo. They organized the whole thing as it was easier and cheaper than another front in the war for them. The ottomans will likely be divided. But if the Russians win I’m sure the larger part of the country will be happy to have paid a bribe to prevent something worse from happening.

As for the Albanians, I can absolutely see southern Albania joining up and identifying with the Greeks in this world. Maybe even central Albania to an extent. Right now the only people in the Balkans with progress towards freedom are the Greeks. Hitching your wagon to theirs isn’t the worst decision you’re could make, especially if it doesn’t come with a mountain of pressure to change every single thing about your culture.
Britain in general, will accept mollifying Greece as a necessary evil to keep them on side and out of the war, especially with said war not going in their favor right now. While they may not like the manner in which the Greeks acted during their negotiations (the sabre rattling didn't really help), they understand that the Greeks were playing the hand they were dealt to its best potential. The Ottomans will definitely have a harder time accepting territorial concessions to Greeks however, and will generally have poorer relations with the Kingdom of Greece going forward. That said, the Porte will recognize that they have underestimated Greece, and keep a closer eye on it going forward so as to prevent such a situation from happening again. There will definitely be long term ramifications for all involved which for better and for worse, will set the stage for events to come once the current conflict is concluded.

Does the Church of Greece have authority in the new territories?
Not yet, but it probably will once the war is over and Greece formally annexes these new provinces.
One thing I noticed though about Ireland @Earl Marshal (and maybe @Lascaris):

The potato famine IOTL all but destroyed the Irish language, as many of the most devastated regions (and where many emigrated from to the U.S., Canada, and other places) were primarily in the western Irish-speaking regions. To basically quote Wikipedia (emphasis mine):


Essentially, with the worst effects largely averted and a Dominion of Ireland (which may come about as a consequence to the Great Eurasian War) established, the Irish language may play a more significant role alongside English (probably along the lines of Welsh in this regard, at least by the 1920s or so)
As of now, I'm not really planning on doing anything different with the Irish language ITTL. The Famine was still rather devastating for Ireland and the language was slowly being replaced by English even before the Famine hit. The Dominion of Ireland may have some impact in saving the language, but I'm honestly undecided about it at this point.

I take no credit for the graphics, also something to note is that the graphics are based on the Ottoman Census, so they may be slightly biased, other demographic estimates for the Vilayet of Aydin have the Greek population significantly higher, but the general jist of it is that it'd be very difficult for the Greeks to justify expanding too far inland. I went ahead and took Armenians into account as being point in the Greeks favor rather than the Ottomans, although obviously if a Armenian state exists then the slight advantage the Armenian population gives the Greeks is lost to an extent. More demographically defensensible borders exist, these are just what I would imagine are the absolute maximum Greece could expand to
Thank you for linking these, I will definitely put these to good use in the future.

I find it unusual that leopold would keep the coat of arms of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha ,given that in otl he had as an escutcheon a quartering of the british coat(given that he was a consort of Charlotte the princess of Wales before she died) and the wettin coat(he is a descendant of the house of wettin after all) while using as the main shield the lion of Belgium(Leo Belgicus)

Is this coat of arms only valid during the reign of Leo I or will it be used by the house after his reign I wonder

Given Contantine's nature ,I would expect a double headed eagle to make an appearance on the greek coat of arms during his reign.
That is Leopold's personal Coat of Arms. Whether it remains his family's Coat of Arms going forward will be determined by his son Prince Constantine.
 
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My two cents on the dilemma between Cyrenaica and island coal stations: We should take into account the state of greek shipping of the era. The greek shipping before the 1950s was not the global power that is today. The vast majority of the greek fleet connected the markets of the Black Sea, Ottoman Empire and Egypt with western Europe. Therefore, any coaling stations outside of the Mediterranean would have marginal value at best. By the mid 19th century, all the islands of strategic value in the Mediterranean were claimed. The only examples I can think of islands not claimed by a major power are the Kerkennah islands and Djerba, but they are off the shipping routes, so of no value.

Tunis of course would be of incredible value but it was located in the French and Italian spheres of influence.

Cyrenaican ports would be of greater importance for the egyptian trade, including the Levant and Sudan (after all, Greeks controlled the riverine trade in the Nile). After the opening of Suez, Cyrenaica has even greater value for Greece as shipping and trade between east and west grows exponentially.
 
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