POLL: What's your favourite pre-modern England-wank scenario?

What's your favourite pre-modern England-wank scenario?

  • The White Ship doesn't sink, 1120 (No Anarchy)

    Votes: 25 15.2%
  • Richard the Lionheart stays out of the crossbows' range, 1199 (Angevin wank ensues)

    Votes: 36 22.0%
  • Edward of Angoulême doesn't die of illness at age five, 1370 (Plantagenet wank ensues)

    Votes: 12 7.3%
  • Henry V doesn't fall ill, 1422 (Lancastrian wank ensues)

    Votes: 43 26.2%
  • Richard III wins at Bosworth Field, 1485 (Yorkist wank ensues)

    Votes: 18 11.0%
  • Arthur Tudor doesn't die of illness at the age of fifteen, 1502 (Tudor wank ensues)

    Votes: 18 11.0%
  • Another POD, upon which I shall elaborate in the comments

    Votes: 12 7.3%

  • Total voters
    164

Skallagrim

Banned
Every country and every era has its typical potential for shameless wanking. England, prior to the modern era, has quite a lot of potential. There were several instances where the untimely death of one person ened up putting another (typically less suited) person on the throne. And quite regularly, the OTL sequence of events could easily have been avoided. My question to you is: which of these pre-modern England-wanks is your favourite? Feel free to elaborate!

(If you have another favourite Anglo-wank scenario that can be achieved by a simple POD after William's conquest in 1066 and before Henry VIII starts fucking everything up, then go right ahead and choose 'other'-- and most certainly feel free to elaborate, in that case...)

The stand-out PODs that I have identified are as follows:


1. The White Ship doesn't sink, 1120. As a result, William Adelin survives. The Anarchy is averted, and the House of Normandy lives on.

2. Richard the Lionheart stays out of the crossbows' range, 1199. He lives at least a decade longer, and is succeeded as king by Arthur, the son of his late elder brother Geoffrey. (As was the intent in OTL.) King John's reign is averted, and he doesn't get to piss almost the whole Angevin Empire away. To be sure, Philip Augustus is still going to be a major challenger to Angevin power on the continent— but a longer-lived Richard, succeeded by literally anyone other than John, will have a better chance to hang onto (some of) the Empire.

3. Edward of Angoulême doesn't die of illness at age five, 1370. As a result, the health of his father—Edward, the Black Prince—doesn't collapse utterly. The Black Prince's health still deteriorates over time. He lives on until 1390 or so, dying c. 60 years old (having ruled as Edward IV from 1377 onward). Edward of Angoulême then succeeds him as Edward V, aged 25 and secure in his position. Presumably, he won't have the same problems as his brother Richard (OTL Richard II). The Plantagenet Empire is bolstered, and the Wars of the Roses get averted.

4. Henry V doesn't fall ill, 1422. He inherits the French throne, lives for several more decades, and stabilises Lancastrian rule. When Henry VI finally succeeds to the throne, his father has already destroyed or side-lined the enemies that defeated him in OTL. Henry VI inherits a Plantagenet Empire that has become a complete Anglo-French Union.

5. Richard III wins at Bosworth Field, 1485. Henry Tudor dies. This ends the Wars of the Roses with a definitive Yorkist victory. Soon thereafter, Richard marries Joanna of Portugal, further solidifying his ties to that country through the marriage of Elizabeth of York to the future King Manuel I of Portugal.

6. Arthur Tudor doesn't die of illness at the age of fifteen, 1502. Seven years later, he succeeds his father as King Arthur of England. This keeps Henry VIII off the throne. Presumably, Arthur and Catherine can produce an heir. England stays Catholic, there is no highly destructive dissolution of the Monasteries, and the alliance between England and Spain is solid (allowing for a stronger check on any French ambitions).


And yes, before you ask, number five is partially (...largely...) there because I'm a shameless Ricardian and I genuinely believe Richard III was a better King than Henry VII. (Also: Yorkists rule, Lancastrians drool.)
 
Def no. 4. England had already made it so much farther than one would naturally expect, I just want to see how much further they could push it.
 
Def no. 4. England had already made it so much farther than one would naturally expect, I just want to see how much further they could push it.
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7. Egbert of Wessex does not support the East Anglian rebellion in 825, which is promptly crushed and East Anglia is integrated fully. The Mercian Kings consolidate their rule across the South of England, fend off the Vikings and incorporate Northumbria and Strathclyde into their domains. They then have a base to unite the British Isles several centuries early.

8. Henry of England, son of Edward Longshanks, does not die and grows up to be a capable leader. He continues his father's successful conquest of Scotland and integrates the Kingdom into being fully part of England, uniting Britain and allowing army costs to be spent on a much earlier English Navy.
 
The difficult bit here is not just to change history, but to make it a wank; ie the ATL is not just better than what happened in OTL, but oh, so much better. I rather like no 1 - William Adelin survives and becomes William III - because a) it seems a rather rare POD compared to the others, and b) not only does it butterfly away The Anarchy - a good thing in itself - but also I suspect a continuing Norman dynasty would have a more 'English' tinge. It was Henry II and his dynasty's focus on continental France and French culture that (along with the earlier replacement of native higher clergy by continental churchmen) that really nailed the coffin lid shut on Anglo-Saxon society and ensured that the English language became nothing more than a peasant patois for 150 years or so. I suspect that writing in Middle English would have appeared a good 100 years earlier than OTL; Poetry in alliterative metres (as by the Gawaine poet and Langland) might have been much more central. Yes the nobility would still have been almost entirely Norman in origin, but might have become anglicised faster. William Adelin himself, don't forget, was in direct descent from the old Wessex dynasty through his mother, and was called by an English title (Adelin).
 
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And you've seemingly excluded the real biggie here: 1066 - King Harold Godwinsson defeats William the Bastard and prevents a Norman invasion.
 
Cnut the great is able to consildate his empire, so that the rulers of England are also the rulers of Denmark and Norway.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Several people seem to have missed that I very deliberately put the range for acceptable PODs between William's conquest and Henry VIII's antics. ;) (More modern Anglo- or Britwanks are relatively easy and more often seen. Meanwhile, I'm specifically interested in England-as-we-understand-that-term, which in my mind came into being with William's conquest. A Cnut-wank or an Anglo-Saxon wank etc. are of course great fun, but not really what I was aiming for here.)


The difficult bit here is not just to change history, but to make it a wank; ie the ATL is not just better than what happenef in OTL, but oh, so much better. I rather like no 1 - William Adelin survives and becomes William III - because a) it seems a rather rare POD compared to the others, and b) not only does it butterfly away The Anarchy - a good thing in itself - but also I suspect a continuing Norman dynasty would have a more 'English' tinge. It was Henry II and his dynasty's focus on continental France and French culture that (along with the earlier replacement of native higher clergy by continental churchmen) that really nailed the coffin lid shut on Anglo-Saxon society and ensured that the English language became nothing more than a peasant patois for 150 years or so. I suspect that writing in Middle English would have appeared a good 100 years earlier than OTL; Poetry in alliterative metres (as by the Gawaine poet and Langland) might have been much more central. Yes the nobility would still have been almost entirely Norman in origin, but might have become anglicised faster. William Adelin himself, don't forget, was in direct descent from the old Wessex dynasty through his mother, and was called by an English title (Adelin).

I agree that this is probably going to get the most purely "English" outcome out of any of them. Of course, this is offset by the great uncertainty of the wank-potential: most of the other PODs directly lead to a big empire, or (in the case of 5 and 6) to a stronger position that can easily lead to such a thing. The very earliest POD is the most uncertain one in that regard. On the other hand, options 2, 3 and 4 run the serious risk of inadvertently become France-wanks (the tail wagging the dog).
 
The one where MacBeth's family unites Britain and Ireland under one kingdom whose motto is basically, 'We hate all of you now go away or I shall taunt you a second time'!
 
1. The White Ship doesn't sink, 1120. As a result, William Adelin survives. The Anarchy is averted, and the House of Normandy lives on.
I really don't get why this would be a wank, Henry II was a highly capable ruler, whose Angevin inheritance arguably would much further expand English interests than a surviving house of Normandy could do (even if a son of William Adelin somehow gets a hold of Poitou-Aquiatine).
It's also funny cuz the next 4 PODs are directly possible only because of the White Ship happening resulting in the Plantagenets ascendancies and their claims to various parts of France.
 
I went with Richard winning as I am also a devoted Ricardian. Henry Tudor had a better claim to France through his grandmother than to England.
Would'nt mind Arthur surviving either. Saw his tomb in Worcester Cathedral. And I think H 8 is a mongrel!
 
I think holding France or Scandinavia changes the character of England too much so I'd say a pod with earlier unification of the islands, Scotland or Ireland allied/pu/vassal/annex Faroe, Iceland, Greenland, etc, ok too.
 
If Richard I survives, Eleanor of Brittany marries Eudes of Burgundy, so the Anglo-Burgundian alliance happens earlier here.
 
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I really don't get why this would be a wank, Henry II was a highly capable ruler, whose Angevin inheritance arguably would much further expand English interests than a surviving house of Normandy could do (even if a son of William Adelin somehow gets a hold of Poitou-Aquiatine).
It's also funny cuz the next 4 PODs are directly possible only because of the White Ship happening resulting in the Plantagenets ascendancies and their claims to various parts of France.
Indeed.
But I suspect the intent of the example is an England lacking Aquitaine could expand more manageably.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I really don't get why this would be a wank, Henry II was a highly capable ruler, whose Angevin inheritance arguably would much further expand English interests than a surviving house of Normandy could do (even if a son of William Adelin somehow gets a hold of Poitou-Aquiatine).
It's also funny cuz the next 4 PODs are directly possible only because of the White Ship happening resulting in the Plantagenets ascendancies and their claims to various parts of France.

Indeed.
But I suspect the intent of the example is an England lacking Aquitaine could expand more manageably.

Yes-- the idea is that every wank has its risks. This POD has the best chance of creating something that will stay "English", whereas scenarios that involve decisive English victory in France may end up with the resulting empire being more French than English.

And of course, each of the scenarios 2-6 is only possible because the preceding one didn't happen. ;)
 

VVD0D95

Banned
The one where MacBeth's family unites Britain and Ireland under one kingdom whose motto is basically, 'We hate all of you now go away or I shall taunt you a second time'!

AmI hearing demand for a Macbeth timeline?
 
I really don't get why this would be a wank, Henry II was a highly capable ruler, whose Angevin inheritance arguably would much further expand English interests than a surviving house of Normandy could do (even if a son of William Adelin somehow gets a hold of Poitou-Aquiatine).
It's also funny cuz the next 4 PODs are directly possible only because of the White Ship happening resulting in the Plantagenets ascendancies and their claims to various parts of France.

I get what you mean about how Option 1 can be considered a "wank" (it certainly counts culturally as one IMO, I agree with @Skallagrim that it could mean better continuity with pre-1066 England), but since we never got a look at how William Adelin would've shaken out as a king, I think it works as a wildcard option. Who knows, he could've done better than Henry II without subjecting England to becoming a wholly Frankish colony like it almost did IOTL.
 
I mean Henry V's rule was such a near-ASB thing that to see it continue after Meaux would've been truely special. Also, him fighting in a pitched battle against Joan and/or the Dauphin as the King of France no less, would've been special as well - so number 4 it is
 
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