Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

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I personally think that this will be more or less the basis for the post-war redrawing of the Soviet-Turkish Border. What do you think?
 
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Paris, December 9th 1936

The Franco-Syrian treaty of independence was finally signed after nearly 9 months of negotiations that had nearly collapsed several times after the refusal of the Frence side to accept the incorporation into Syria of Lebanon, the Kurdish, Alawite and Druze states and the sanjak of Alexandretta as the Syrians were demanding. Finally the Syrians had to accept a separate Lebanon, while a compromise would be reached for the remaining areas with each state having a referendum on its future within three months of the signing of the treaty. The Druze would be the only ones to vote to join the new Syria. The Kurds understandably preferred their own state which they saw as the first seed to eventually create an independence Kurdistan, while the Alawis in the aftermath of the 1925 revolt feared that incorporation into Syria would also mean the return of the Sunni landowners that had left during the revolt. in Alexandretta the result against Syria had been ironically enough decided by the Turkish population voting along with the majority of Christians against incorporation into Syria if for diametrically opposite reasons, as the Christians wanted to remain in the French sphere of influence while the Turks were following Kemal's instructions, who wanted to keep Alexandretta out of Syria in order to join with Turkey later.
Hi guys, I'm new here and I just started reading TTL and I have a question: with "the Kurds" do you mean the State of Aleppo right? Or is it a stake encompassing mainly the Al-Hasakah Governorate?
Hope to hear from you soon!
 
The Germans find Smolensk to be a tougher nut to break than IOTL...
How bad is the logistical situation for the Soviets in the Caucasus/Anatolian front?
Not very bad really. They have advanced roughly 100 km from the frontier. In Erzurum they have a railroad available, ironically built by the Russian army in the previous war. On the coast they can run coastal convoys...
Shouldn't Iran be replaced with Iraq in this phrase?
If the Greeks manage to build even limited numbers of tanks it would be significant, but I think it would have been easier and wiser to build trucks and armored cars instead.
They are certainly building trucks, perhaps not in significant numbers but certainly notable ones. Is the tank effort worth it? Quite possibly not. Should they know of it ahead of time and put the effort on other items? This sounds suspiciously like doing everything right...
Yes, I think you're right. Some limited number of armored vehicles would be useful, but the Greeks aren't going to be fighting in good tank country. They've got mountains and hills. Better to focus on what can be built in larger numbers and still provide armored fire support in a pinch. Easier on their logistics as well, especially if a unit has to be shipped across the Aegean a light motorized force is a lot easier and a lot faster to redeploy than an armored one.
The geography has some obvious choke-points but as seen by the German invasion or for that matter the modern Greek army armoured forces are more than useful. That said the wisdom of local question is... questionable.

Considering Teymourtarsh had some interesting views and policies IOTL (and leads the NatPop Iran in the rework for KR Iran), I wonder how Iran would develop if he regains power after Reza Khan oofs himself here.
Teymourtash was certainly a very interesting and very capable person (as was his daughter) but what in particular do you have in mind?
So basically the Turks and Germans are fighting against the Soviets in Anatolia which is very different than otl for obvious reasons. How will this affect Germany in diverting supplies to Anatolia?
That depends on the amount of resources that end up reverted. At the moment the Germans have in the Near East as many divisions as they had in OTL, the burden on the Greek front is mostly falling on Bulgaria and Italian forces at the moment.

Iran/Persia will have some differences methinks as Zahedi wants to coup Reza. Will there be an Iranian civil war or will Zahedi get arrested like otl? I got ittl Iran is able to be more powerful and be a regional power.

Finally in Greece things are in motion as the Greeks (Pangalos) continue to strengthen his forces, although the armour department is a bit lacking. Will we see a post war boom in Greece much like Japan/Italy ittl? Also Greece seems set to be a regional hegemon of the middle East after WWII and the cold war.
Greece in OTL for a time was one of the two fastest growing economies in the world. The other was... Japan. On average between 1950 and 1973 it was growing by 7.7% a year annually... despite the war ending in 1949. What happen TTL... well we are still in 1941.

Seeing that greece,usa and the uk have the same standard calibre for rifles(7mm) could realistically the greek war industry provide enough ammunition for the allied war effort in the middle east? After all any ship not used for carrying ammunition can be used to carry something else.
If Greece could supply small arms ammunition in OTL to the tune of ~50 million rounds, I don;t see why it cannot be done TTL.
Also has the whole army slashed to 14 divisions or only the units in the Thermopylae front
The whole army. Five divisions in the Smyrna front, 9 divisions, plus the two mountain brigades, plus a few other odds and ends which for now shall remain unnamed in the mainland. 53 regiments overall, down from 96 in February.
Oh this is interesting... Very very interesting. I wonder what changes Isigonis has made on Carden's design.
The Sentinel tank may not be such a bad comparison.

If the frontline is on eastern outskirts of Erzurum, then the terrain while still suitable for defence it is not the vast mountains of the border with Sarikamis. From a quick view it is great artillery country with a lot of reverse slopes. If the Axis try to dislodge Triandafilov, soviet superiority in artillery would make that endeavor very bloody.
Just as a note Triandafilov is in command of only one of the armies not the front.
Nothing like a pro-Axis coup to turn the country towards the Allies. Strong spanish vibes in Teheran.
You'd think you are disparaging German ability at diplomacy and covert operations...
I don't think it will be very bad. They have the narrow gauge railroad the Imperial Russian Army built in 1916 that connects Erzurum with Kars. As soon as they fix it, they will have a railhead just behind the frontlines.



In general, I think Stalin is going to ask again and again the British to knock Turkey out of the war. He has found an actual Second Front. With the Straights open and in firm Allied control, Lend-Lease shipments can reach the Black Sea ports while the Soviet Armies of the Caucasus can head north.
Maybe... then just as likely he will be asking for the 1915 Constantinople agreement to be applied in full...
Yes that's what he meant and the Brits weren't shy using nationalism to get the greek Cypriots in the regiment iotl... I remember seeing some posters that said fight for liberty and greece
That was... the prime recruiting slogan of the Cyprus regiment in OTL. Though TTL if things go well for Greece it may not be that easy for Britain to forget.
Hi guys, I'm new here and I just started reading TTL and I have a question: with "the Kurds" do you mean the State of Aleppo right? Or is it a stake encompassing mainly the Al-Hasakah Governorate?
Hope to hear from you soon!
It's the sixth statelet of TTL Syria created in 1922 a bit more detail can be found in part 17. TTL the French could hold somewhat to the north of the OTL border. But this added tens of thousands more Kurds into Syria in geographically distinct territory. If the French had no issue creating a Druze and a Alewite state OTL while there were some proposals of a Kurdish state in the first place...
I know people desperately want to give Armenia a port but I honestly just don’t see that happening. This seems much more likely especially given Stalins homeland.
I'm not inclined to comment one way or the other at the moment, beyond noting this a problem shared with others like the Kurds and the Assyrians. TTL at least Armenia has a much longer border with Iran for what it may or may not be worth...
 
Having just gone to mparoutadiko for a walk a thought has hit me... Where exactly in athens are the war industries located? For certain there are not located in aigaleo..because aigaleo doesn't exist ittl(i mean the municipality not the mountain of course)
 
Population and municipalities of TTL Athens
Having just gone to mparoutadiko for a walk a thought has hit me... Where exactly in athens are the war industries located? For certain there are not located in aigaleo..because aigaleo doesn't exist ittl(i mean the municipality not the mountain of course)
Does this help any? :angel:

Municipalities of Athens TTL19201940
Αθήνα - Athens
292991​
404000​
Πειραιάς - Piraeus
133482​
150892​
Αγία Παρασκευή - Agia Parasleui
0​
3557​
Αιγάλεω - Aigaleo
180​
180​
Άλιμος - Alimos
958​
2735​
Αμφιάλη - Amphiali
22​
1462​
Βάρη - Vari
0​
857​
Βούλα - Voula
31​
1471​
Βουλιαγμένη - Vouliagmeni
59​
694​
Βριλήσσια - Vrilissia
60​
305​
Γαλάτσι - Galatsi
319​
319​
Γέρακας - Gerakas
45​
45​
Γλαυκεία - Glaukeia
972​
3796​
Γλυφάδα - Glyfada
173​
3148​
Εκάλη - Ekali
0​
708​
Ελληνικό - Hellenikon
32​
3473​
Ζωγράφου - Zografou
11​
5310​
Ηλιούπολη - Helioupolis
61​
3911​
Ηράκλειο - Heraklion
420​
3536​
Καλλιθέα - Kallithea
6644​
37953​
Καματερό - Kamatero
486​
5312​
Κηφισιά - Kifisia
3385​
14201​
Λευκονόη - Leukonoe
1244​
4744​
Κορυδαλλός - Korydallos
78​
78​
Μαρούσι - Marousi
3450​
9565​
Πεντέλη - Penteli
0​
3367​
Ρέντης - Renti
1457​
3383​
Φάληρο - Phaleron
2349​
9133​
Φιλοθέη - Pilothei
0​
1173​
Χαλάνδρι - Chalandri
1897​
11297​
Χαϊδάρι - Chaidari
551​
5868​
Χολαργός - Cholargos
0​
1054​
Ψυχικό - Psychikon
64​
2568​



TTL MunicipalityCorresponding OTL municipalities
ΑθήναAthens
ΠειραιάςPiraεus
Αγία ΠαρασκευήAg Paraskeui
ΑιγάλεωAigalaio
Ag Varvara
ΆλιμοςAg Dimitrios
Alimos
Dafni
ΑμφιαληDrapetsona
Keratsini
Perama
ΒαρηBari
ΒούλαBoula
ΒουλιαγμένηVouliagmeni
ΒριλησσιαVrilissia
ΓαλάτσιGalatsi
ΓερακαςGerakas
ΓλαυκειαKoukoubaounes
Peuki
Lykovrysi
ΓλυφάδαGlyfada
ΕκάληEkali
ΕλληνικόElliniko
Argyroupoli
ΖωγράφουZografou
Byronas
Kaisariani
ΗλιούποληHelioupolis
Ymittos
ΗράκλειοHerakleio
N Ionia
ΚαλλιθέαKallithea
Mosxato
Tauros
ΚαματερόAg Anariroi
Kamatero
N Filadelfeia
N Halkidona
ΚηφισιάKifisia
N Erythraia
ΚορυδαλλοςKorydallos
ΛευκονόηN Liosia
Peristeri
Petroupoli
ΜαρούσιMarousi
ΠεντέληMelissia
Penteli
N Penteli
ΡέντηςNikaia
Renti
ΦαληροP Faliro
N Smyrni
ΦιλοθέηFilothei
ΧαλάνδριXalandri
ΧαϊδάριXaidari
ΧολαργοςHolargos
Papagou
ΨυχικόN Psychiko
Psychiko
 
Yes it did help...now with greece having some respite with the germans in the soviet union could she transport some of the refugees in Smyrna to athens? It would ease the supply situation in Smyrna and at the same time provide some manpower to the Athenian factories with the men working in the heavy industry and with women in light industries such as clothes and blankets... lucky Greece has still some significant cotton and wool productions and last but not least with the population of smyrna basically doubling without the appropriate infrastructure disease would be an issue specially waterborne diseases like cholera (maybe i don't the water supply system in Smyrna but it can't be as Athens at the turn of the 20th century)
 
Hasn't the Axis airpower damaged the Greek industries at all? I mean with bases in Thessaly they can wreak havoc on Athens and the Peloponnese. At least when the Germans were seriously trying to break through. So new tools would be needed to replace the old.
 
Hasn't the Axis airpower damaged the Greek industries at all? I mean with bases in Thessaly they can wreak havoc on Athens and the Peloponnese. At least when the Germans were seriously trying to break through. So new tools would be needed to replace the old.
Of course it has damaged them. How much is something of a different question.
 
Hi @Lascaris, I had some free time during these holidays and decided to make two maps of TTL pre-WW2 Europe:

01/01/1935
01.01.1935.png


31/08/1939
31.08.1939.png

I updated the map in order to account for the independence of the former mandate of Syria and the Armenian SSR border.
 
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@Lascaris I would like to ask you a question: why did the French annex Sirnak when in OTL they had no intention to? In TTL France would have kept the OTL Treaty of Sevres in which, as shown here http://www.hri.org/docs/sevres/map1.html, wanted to stay behind the Tigris river and annex only until Cizre. Can you please explain why they changed their mind in TTL?
Did it? I did mention parts of the Sirnak province in part 17 but not Sirnak itself IMS. The Tigris is the logical border as long as the railroad remains on the French side of it.
 
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