No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)

Of course, doing what you recommending involves certain dangers:
1. Prussia has an excellent army of at least 40,000 and only a part of it is engaged in the WoSS and even these troops can be recalled back home. So this is not going to be a simple walkout.
2. Attack on Prussia means a brand new war which can be joined by Denmark and Saxony.
3. The maritime powers want a balance on the Baltic and may support Denmark just not to let Sweden to disrupt it too much even by annexing the whole Royal Prussia. BTW, the Prussian Prussia is now independent from the PLC so the vassal schema is not going to work while a direct annexation of both Polish and Prussian parts is problematic both internationally a d just resources wise: as OTL example of Peter demonstrated, nobody wanted to have a single absolutely dominant power on the Baltic Sea.
4. Prussia wanted Stettin but did Sweden seriously wanted something from Prussia? Something worthy of a big war?

How about a somewhat different approach to the issue? The block Sweden-Russia is being too powerful for Prussia to try any adventures at Sweden expense
1. True
2. True
3. I am not sure about this point to be honest. Would the Maritime Powers try to escalate things when they have bigger fish to fry? If they were in peace with Louis, sure. Even if they were involved in a small-scale war with Louis. At these circumstances though, it would be very counter-productive for the Maritime Powers. William went into great pains to isolate diplomatically Louis. It would be something out of character to make an enemy out of a Great Power, especially one in a more secure strategic situation as at least one Minor Power is its ally. During his whole adult life, William was striving to contain Louis. He wouldn't push Sweden to french arms for Danzig.
4. True

But I didn't explain myself correctly. I am not arguing for an attack against Prussia. The opportunity I am talking about is Royal Prussia and Danzig. The war with Prussia will be inevitable at some point in the near future. But not to outright march to Konigsberg or Berlin.


to make sure Russia is not treated like Sweden was at Fontainebleau 1679.
That was indeed a disillusionment for swedish diplomacy.

The line of thinking - that this nation might one day overshadow ours, and we need to strangle it in its cradle belongs to the era of nationalism and would not really exist until after the Napoleonic wars -with Bismarck and the unification of Germany as primary examples of this. It would not be in Karl's world view to go after Prussia before it becomes a threat - especially so since he was really, really big on the divine rights of monarchs and that wars needed to be just.
You are absolutely right and I concede the point!


Just as seizing Danzig it would also be against Sweden's medium term interests - as soon as the War of the Spanish Succession is over, people will start looking at Sweden again. And Karl knows this - he learned from his father how dangerous it could be to provoke all your neighbours at the same time.
Post factum this time will be different than 1679. Sweden won't be exhausted, its fleet and army intact. An ally covering the flank. The PLC without a real ability to cause big trouble and neutralized by Russia. Judging from the 17th century what may the Swedes expect of the Maritime Powers? At worse, use proxies providing subsidies. A combination of Denmark and Prussia is not that threatening in the greater context. It seems to me that swedish confidence will be greater.

In general, I have to admit that I am enamoured with the concept of dominium maris baltici. I root for whichever scandinavian power is close to achieve it. And I am getting carried away !
 
So you are basically advocating a preemptive turning of the LNW into the different version of the GNW. 🤗

Of course, doing what you recommending involves certain dangers:
1. Prussia has an excellent army of at least 40,000 and only a part of it is engaged in the WoSS and even these troops can be recalled back home. So this is not going to be a simple walkout.
2. Attack on Prussia means a brand new war which can be joined by Denmark and Saxony.
3. The maritime powers want a balance on the Baltic and may support Denmark just not to let Sweden to disrupt it too much even by annexing the whole Royal Prussia. BTW, the Prussian Prussia is now independent from the PLC so the vassal schema is not going to work while a direct annexation of both Polish and Prussian parts is problematic both internationally a d just resources wise: as OTL example of Peter demonstrated, nobody wanted to have a single absolutely dominant power on the Baltic Sea.
4. Prussia wanted Stettin but did Sweden seriously wanted something from Prussia? Something worthy of a big war?

How about a somewhat different approach to the issue? The block Sweden-Russia is being too powerful for Prussia to try any adventures at Sweden expense
1. Charles is/was reckless as fuck and addicted to war. I never said he would win (easily). Still smashing a Prussia at war with others is a lot easier than decisively beating the Russians on their own turf, while they are fighting no one else, like he thought he could OTL (his officers protests be damned). The Prussian Army is good, but is it as good as the Swedish one? Best case for Prussia they are on par.
2. If events with Denmark went as OTL they have a peace treaty with Sweden so joining Prussia violates that (OTL they only violated after Poltava). I reckon it would take something similar with Saxony too (assuming Charles/Peter deal with Saxony as OTL just eariler). I can't imagine them joining immediately after they have both been decisively defeated and the Swedish Army remains unbeaten. Would take a Poltava against Prussia (which may or may not happen)
3. Yeah, Sweden does need to beware the maritime powers - but the possibility of Sweden (with vassal mini PLC) joining France as a full beligerent in the WoSS and marching on Vienna, gives them reason to beware Him. As long as Denmark has the other side of the Sound, Sweden doesnt dominate the baltic. And as long as Charles has someone else handle the diplomacy and demands...
4. Prussia cut down to size so they can't grab Stettin later when the situation is more in their favour. Prussia wants Stettin. Will eventually fight for it. What is gained by waiting?

Look, this is me just trying to write Charles In Character.
 
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Sweden and Prussia will certainly have some kind of confrontation on which is the primary protestant power in the Empire, and perhaps even the primary power of northern Europe. The problen with your scenario is that the contemporaries would not see it that way. To Karl, Denmark and perhaps the Emperor are his future enemies. Poland-Lithuania is on the decline, and not even propped up by the 3rd power of the Empire (Saxony) can it be considered a serious threat, as Karl has himself has just experienced. Russia has proven itself a valuable, honourable and worthy ally.

The line of thinking - that this nation might one day overshadow ours, and we need to strangle it in its cradle belongs to the era of nationalism and would not really exist until after the Napoleonic wars -with Bismarck and the unification of Germany as primary examples of this. It would not be in Karl's world view to go after Prussia before it becomes a threat - especially so since he was really, really big on the divine rights of monarchs and that wars needed to be just. He did swear that he would never start a war (nor end one unless in Sweden's favour). To suggest Sweden attack Prussia would be anachronistic and against Karl's character and beliefs. Just as seizing Danzig it would also be against Sweden's medium term interests - as soon as the War of the Spanish Succession is over, people will start looking at Sweden again. And Karl knows this - he learned from his father how dangerous it could be to provoke all your neighbours at the same time.

Besides, as @alexmilman says, the Swedo-Russian block can look dangerous to challenge. Karl can get what he wants - peace, stability, continued strength of Sweden and a good economy without attacking and provoking people. Why should he not? Because we realise that in the long run, when the age of nationalism rolls around, Sweden lacks the population and the resources to be a global power does not mean Karl does, not any other contemporaries, because nationalism is at least 100 years away.
To deal with Denmark, Charles has to go through Prussia. Prussia will say no. Surely Charles does want to do a Torstensson style land invasion of Jutland at some point?

I am not saying Charles would fear Prussia growing and eventually overshadowing Sweden, I am saying that Charles would fear a Prussia of exactly the same size going for Stettin when Sweden was in a less advantageous geopolitical/strategic position, where Sweden was distracted elsewhere and Prussia was not. They were worried about Prussia with a coalition including Denmark and potentially others going for Stettin, in Charles day, right?

I never suggested siezing Danzig. Just taking Royal Prussia as well as Courland from the PLC when installing his puppet king and negotiating a treaty of 'protection' with the city where it has more rights than before but pays Sweden regular tribute rather than trying to take the city itself.

As for the swearing to never start a war nor end one exept in Swedens favour, didnt Voltaire make that up?
 
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Karl marching to Dresden to dictate peace would be one - taking Courland and giving Peter what he wants - Karl would be considering Peter an honourable ally that has shown both dedication and resilience, especially as Shetemetev turned up in the right place at the right time. Karl would want to make peace from a position of strength - but also invite Peter (or his representative) to the negotiations to make sure Russia is not treated like Sweden was at Fontainebleau 1679.

Yes, I think that Peter in this TL should be approving “a little excursion to Saxony” because (a) it provides his army with the additional experience (before the really important war), (b) does not cost too much in the terms of the losses (and part of the cost can be compensated by contribution), (c) strengthens relations with Sweden, which is important both in the terms of the territorial acquisitions/exchanges and in the terms of having a secure rear during the planned Ottoman war and (d) if the cards are being played properly, paradoxically as it may sound, this expedition may result in getting August (in both his capacities) within the Russian-Swedish orbit.

For Charles, as the King of Sweden, security of the (changed) PLC border is an important factor because, while the PLC is weak and keeps getting weaker, its increasing domestic chaos may start negatively impacting trade going through the Livonian ports: surely, a systematic destruction of the opponents’ estates and lawlessness on the roads are not conductive to the increase of the agricultural exports and, AFAIK, Charles was quite aware of the fact that the thalers are not growing on the trees. He does not need a strong PLC (neither does Peter) but it is better to have it ruled by a weak monarch than not ruled at all.

Do Peter and Charles have only a big stick for August? Not exactly. They have a couple of the nice juicy carrots, which will cost them little and which is going to benefit all of them (and their successors): (a) they can guarantee August, if he behaves, a strong support for the candidacy of his son as the next King. “Strong support” as in “all means including military” and (b) they can guarantee (mutual defense treaty) that no other European power will be allowed to expand at the PLC expense (after Sweden and Russia are getting their pieces, which are not in Poland proper so the Sejm may be OK with their loss) - Prussia already made noises regarding Elblag, which Charles nobly rejected even at the determent to his own interests.


It would be important for Karl that August is not allowed to weasel himself out of the war and the consequences. But if representatives of the Emperor and August (rather than mistresses) showed up and were willing to talk peace and August would admit to starting an unjust war, pay reparations and lose (Polish-Lithunanian) terrain, I think Karl could talk peace - OTL he would not take peace with Peter because he was winning and Peter demanded territory (at least part of Ingria) and then because he kept throwing good money after bad like a desperate poker player. Neither is the case here, and I like to think he would act differently because of the different circumstances.

In OTL Charles and August met and ended up being seemingly friendly: August presented Charles with the jeweled sword that Peter gave him as a present [1] Charles even rode to August’s residence without an escort to say goodbye. Well, of course, this did not prevent August from changes the sides again but “don't let us fall into temptation”. It seems that even before the Saxon campaign Charles’ attitude evolved to something like “a rascal but not all bad” (should be punished but not destroyed).


[1] This sword was in Charles’ baggage during the Russian campaign and had been captured after Poltava providing Peter with a mischievous opportunity to give it to August again on their next meeting.


When it comes to the peace, various Polish-Lithuanian magnates can claim it is not ratified and that the sejm need to vote on it and so on, Sweden and Russia can just take what they got in the peace and let the Poles and Lithuanians quarrel amongst themselves - the szlachta lack the ability to wage an offensive war against another country, so without the Saxonians and King August, they can't really do much.
While in theory the Sejm and all other Polish legalities may look as almost unsurmountable obstacle, this part of the equation, as far as I can tell, was not hopeless. Of course, in theory, any delegate of the Sejm could use his right of liberum veto but in practice most of these candidates had been clients of one magnate or another and the magnates tended to be interested in their estates not being burned to the ground (an entertainment in which the Cossacks excelled), or being confiscated, in themselves being forced to flee the country and in many other things including perspective to spend the following years hunting the fur animals in Siberia.

But anyway, AFAIK, the international treaties had to be ratified by the Senate, not the Sejm, and besides the thrilling hunting opportunities, its members could be offered (and usually had been, with a great success) some other cookies: pensions, Order of St. Andrew, protection (and expansion) of the estates on the Russian side of the border. Jan Kazimierz Sapieha, after fighting against August during the GNW, even ended up as VIP at the court of Catherine I: was made a fieldmarshal (without serving a single day in the Russian army), got orders of St. Andrew and St. Akexander and became governor-general of St-Petersburg governorship. All that for first promising marriage of his son to Menshikov’s daughter and then for marrying him to the niece of CI. Looks really cool with St. Andrew’s blue ribbon and star. 😂
1640025827273.jpeg





 
1. True
2. True
3. I am not sure about this point to be honest. Would the Maritime Powers try to escalate things when they have bigger fish to fry? If they were in peace with Louis, sure. Even if they were involved in a small-scale war with Louis. At these circumstances though, it would be very counter-productive for the Maritime Powers. William went into great pains to isolate diplomatically Louis. It would be something out of character to make an enemy out of a Great Power, especially one in a more secure strategic situation as at least one Minor Power is its ally. During his whole adult life, William was striving to contain Louis. He wouldn't push Sweden to french arms for Danzig.

This had nothing to do with Louis. Denmark and Prussia are the active members of the anti-French alliance and both of them, and the same goes for the Brits and the Dutch, are not interested in the Baltic Sea being converted into the Swedish (or Russian or anybody else) lake by the virtue of holding all important ports on its shore.

For the naval power it all amounts to their naval presence, which shifts dominance in the sea unquestionably into the Danish favor and makes Swedish communications across the sea very complicated, at best. Now, without ability to establish a naval blockade and a secure way to carry the reinforcements and supplies across the sea, Swedish siege of Danzig turns into a massive, and most probably fruitless, effort. The city is kept being supplied with all the necessities by the sea and its fortifications are formidable. The Swedes are occupying Elblag but access to the Vistula Lagoon is within the artillery range of the Prussian Pilau Fortress. Which means that the Swedes have to transport the siege artillery and supplies by land all the way from the ports on the Northern Baltic (assuming that the allies do not have resources to cover the whole sea). Which means something like 900 km, part of which along the Prussian border.

Now, this does not mean that taking Danzig was technically an impossibility. This was done in 1734 during the WoPS but political and military situation was different, Danzig being pretty much isolated and getting very inept French assistance and 130 Swedish volunteers, 60,000 besieging Russian troops, Russian fleet freely operating on the Baltic Sea (allied Prussia) and bringing siege artillery and supplies with more siege artillery and troops coming from Saxony.

And politically it was just about defeating supporters of the French candidate to the throne, not about giving the city to some third party.

As you can see, quite different from what we have in the LNW.

Edit: In OTL during the siege of Thorn Charles (or rather Stenbock) bullied Danzig into receiving Swedish garrison, paying huge amount of money and sending artillery for the siege of Thorn. But this was intended to be a purely temporary measure without any claim for the Swedish sovereignty. Formally. it was not even clear at that time if Charles is at war with the PLC or just with August and I’m not quite sure if Danzig was pro-August: unlike Thorn and many other places, the city did not have Saxon garrison.

But turning Danzig into a permanent Swedish possession would be a completely different story even if the repercussions would not follow immediately. An additional item was Elblag. August allowed the Prussian garrison there (without ceding sovereignty) but Charles literally squeezed the Germans out of the city putting his troops there on the winter quarters. For a while Prussia did tolerate these actions but the first sign of the Swedish weakness triggered a retaliation. In this TL Charles is more than a little bit more restricted in his actions.
 
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1. Charles is/was reckless as fuck and addicted to war. I never said he would win (easily). Still smashing a Prussia at war with others is a lot easier than decisively beating the Russians on their own turf, while they are fighting no one else, like he thought he could OTL (his officers protests be damned). The Prussian Army is good, but is it as good as the Swedish one? Best case for Prussia they are on par.

For a person who made his declared principle to be against the “unjust wars” and its practice to punish (or at least to try) those who are conducting such wars, and being quite idealistic in his belief into the treaties, Charles in your interpretation looks as an absolutely opportunistic conqueror with an additional benefit of being a visionary capable of predicting the future. 😜

Well, the behavior you described had been typical in OTL for his neighbors but not to him. He made a neutrality treaty with Prussia and it was Prussia who broke the treaty. The same goes for the peace treaties broken by Denmark and Saxony.

Anyway, Charles is not the main personage in this TL and his military activities are described only as far as they are important for the main line so, as soon as Charles is getting a satisfactory peace he is probably going to be busy with the necessary even if less exciting functions of his profession: I already spent too much time on him. 😂

4. Prussia cut down to size so they can't grab Stettin later when the situation is more in their favour. Prussia wants Stettin. Will eventually fight for it. What is gained by waiting?

In other words, in your opinion Charles should start war with Prussia (with which he has a neutrality treaty) because Prussia may want Stettin (but so far did not do anything about it) and probably to conquer a big chunk of the Prussian territory to prevent it from doing this in a future. But where is a guarantee that at some point in a future Prussia, unless it is completely destroyed and partitioned between numerous neighbor states, is not going to get strong enough to try to conquer Stettin, Rugen island and Swedish Pomerania? No guarantee at all. So he has to completely destroy Prussia as a state and probably to do the same to Denmark, just in case. Probably, this will led to quite exciting TL but is not going to happen in this one. 😜
Look, this is me just trying to write Charles In Character.
We seemingly have slightly different views regarding his character and, anyway, Charles is not the main figure in this TL.
 
[4] Again, an absence of a scale is really annoying. The Swedes started their march at 9AM and if the forest is as small as it looks on a plan, why did it take them 3 hours to march through it? Did they stop for a picnic under the trees? If you look at the map of a battle, the distance between Kije and Kokot is approximately 1km and a distance betwee Kokot and Kliszow is few hundred meters more. Which makes Saxon-Polish front approximately 3km and a distance from the Swedish camp (through the forest) to their initial position less than 2km only a small part of which was forest.
The first rule of large-scale warfare is "It all takes longer than you'd believe possible".

It may only be a few kilometres, but the Swedes have to get out of camp, get into formation (and in a front 3km across it take a unit an hour just to march from one end to the other), and start pushing through the forest (in formation, which means that every unit moves at the pace of the slowest).. Remember that everything out of shouting distance is being coordinated by messengers dashing around with hand-written orders, some of which will inevitably get lost. So one unit takes the wrong path, another is standing around waiting for orders that the general thinks have been delivered, a cannon gets bogged down in the mud and blocks everything behind it etc etc. Then they emerge from the forest to find that their line has gaps in it, units are in the wrong place, the artillery's got left behind and they have to stop and sort it all out while Charles is hand-writing the next batch of orders for what he wants his generals to do now he can see the enemy.

Good update though. Smart of Sheremetev to get his army to the field in time (rather than, say, the next morning) and smart of Charles to acknowledge the Russian achievements.
 
Anyway, Charles is not the main personage in this TL and his military activities are described only as far as they are important for the main line so, as soon as Charles is getting a satisfactory peace he is probably going to be busy with the necessary even if less exciting functions of his profession: I already spent too much time on him.
Interestingly Karl took his duties as the supreme judge of the country quite seriously, studying law quite extensively. In general, he was described as an able administrator, a disciplined worker and a very harsh but fair judge. I'm sure he will spend a lot of time like his father travelling, inspecting troops, rewarding dedication to duty and punishing corruption and derilict of duty. For some reason I think he would be happy that way, fading out of the big drama of the world of this story and managing his little corner of the world and doing it well.

Perhaps you could as some kind of tribute do quick "meanwhile in Sweden" interjections as Peter works feverishly to get supplies to his starving troops in an alternate Prut scenario, finally breaking through to his beleaguered men with gunpowder, food and vodka. Meanwhile, in Sweden Karl grants a silver coin to a city watchman who refused to let him into the city at night. Meanwhile in Sweden, Karl sentences a woman who murdered her infant to death by live burial. And so on. :p

Looking forward to the rest of the story.
 
Peace or not?
15. Peace or not?
“Sir, and what will become of Poland?”
marysia and napoleon


After Kliszow the victors marched to Krakow for a little bit of R&R and for figuring out what they are actually trying to achieve [1]. The first move had been made (not a big surprise) by August who released the only Swedish officer his troops managed to capture at Kliszow [2]. Released captain appeared in the Swedish camp carrying one more peace proposal from August who did not care too much for the proposal but was favorably impressed by a polite gesture and reciprocated by releasing few captured Saxon officers [3]. After which August issued an order to release some of the Swedish officers which could be captured in the future.

On September 8 Piper issued the memorandum in which he formulated the arguments against continued “Polish experiment”. He started with the obvious question: if August is dismissed, who is going to put on now pretty much worthless crown? Sweden will have to support the new king with a military force all the time and this consideration alone is a reason strong enough for abandoning this course of actions. Then, what woukd be Sweden’s gain? Its great army and country's resources are already being wasted without any profit for the country and it is inconceivable to sacrifice the brave and industrial Swedish nation for the Polish interests. The whole world is going to consider the Swedes to be fools if they keep fighting a war fir the benefit of other country [4]. Does not the King love his country enough to consider a peace? And, if the King is relying upon the God in his just war, is unwillingness to forgive the enemy befits a true Christian? Doesn’t the God command to forgive a defeated and repentant enemy? Then Piper addressed Charles’ favorite argument about a need to punish August for all damage caused to Poland by asking if this is not responsibility of the Poles to do so? After this Piper pointed out to the real advantages of the peace: acquisition of Courland, neutralization of Prussia and Denmark, stability of Sweden and an unchallenged role of the European arbiter for her king. Piper ended with “I’m not alone in this opinion. All loyal subjects and friends of Your Majesty think the same way. Army is full of the rumors about King’s of Poland willingness to make a peace and desires it.”

Charles, which was not typical for him, answered with a document of his own in which he deferred dethronization issue to the Poles claiming that he is ready to support both “yes” and “no” and pointing out that his loyal Russian ally also has say on war or peace issue. Cynically, Charles was pushing the buck but this was a certain progress from his initial position.

While everybody is waiting for Peter’s planned arrival:

1. The Pomeranian corps of 5 Swedish infantry and one cavalry regiments and 3 German dragoon regiments arrived to Krakow.

2. Charles solved supply issue by the requisitions (following the logic that if an army is staying in Poland for the Polish own good than Poland should support it [5]. Stenbock had been put in charge and demonstrated a real talent in procuring the money, food, forage and other necessities.

3. August, after escaping from Kliszow, reappeared in Sieradz [6] and called “small sejm” (or “big confederation”) with a purpose to guarantee support of the Polish nobility against the invaders [6]. He got some support even if the meetings were on the unruly side, lacking an order and involving the sharp objects as an argument, resulting in a violent death of the Voyevoda of Kalisz (who in the spring headed the Senate mission to Charles so obviously he had to go). Encouraged by this success August made an attempt to instill some fighting spirit into Hetman Lubomirsky, which was a big mistake. The Hetman took it as a personal offense and promised to went to the Swedish side: confederation or no confederation but nobody has a right to tell Pan Hetman what to do.

4. In the February of 1703 Magnus Stenbock returned from his “assignment” proudly reporting fulfillment if the King’s orders: he brought with himself 200,000 riksdalers, plenty of food, wine, leather and other supplies. After meeting with the King, he went to his tent to write to his wife: “I did not take anything for myself from the King’s share … did my angel received 8,000 riksdalers, silver table service, and some other things thatbI sent to you?”. Less prominent personages of the Swedish army also were not forgetting themselves with Charles’ indulgence but drunkedness and sexual misconduct had been punished severely.

5. The Swedish and Russian troops started a leisure march back to Warsaw where Cardinal Radziewsky assembled the Senate to discuss the dethronement issue and where Charles was planning to have his meeting with Peter who was still on his way from Moscow to Kiev accompanied by his Guards. The Russian troops had been sent to secure the road and guarantee the warm reception by the Polish authorities [7]. His meeting with the Cardinal Charles started with “We still insist upon dethronement “ to which a shocked Cardinal asked to abandon this “impossible idea” because it is lacking support from the army and voyevodships. A long discussion followed with a zero result. The following meetings with various Polish delegations went along the same lines: the Poles simply could not understand what is good fir them.

6. In a meantime it was discovered that August arrived to Torun (Thorn), half way from Warsaw to the mouth of Wustula, and that Steinau concentrated the Saxon forces there. August obviously needed to get a new beating and Charles was ready to deliver it. With 3,000 cavalry Charles rode toward Torun defeating on his way at Pultusk the Saxon vanguard of approximately the same size and capturing Schulenburg. All Saxon infantry, 6,000 strong, was in Torun, a powerful fortress with a strong garrison and well supplied with food and ammunition. Population was strongly anti-Swedish and willing to participate in defense of the city. The Swedes did not have a siege artillery, which had to be brought all the way from Riga. The Saxon and Polish cavalry remained active outside the city attacking the small Swedish detachments and disrupting supplies.

_______________
[1] In the case of Sheremetev this was rather simple: get comfortable, keep training his army and wait until Peter arrives to Krakow “to do politics” because this was not fieldmarshal’s business both by his position and by his personal inclinations. Ah yes, he was going to procure the new horses for his carriages: being a coonosier in this area he suffered greatly from losing quite a few of them on the lousy PLC roads. With Menshikov it was also quite clear: enjoy the social life and prepare everything possible for his master’s arrival. Of course, he tested the political waters a little bit and sent reports to Peter but nobody authorized him to conduct diplomatic talks and he knew better than to disobey Peter on this account. He and Sheremetev were going along just fine so there was no reason for him to start getting nasty and try to rock the boat: his place of honor after Kliszow was assured and so was Sheremetev’s so the more each of them had been hailing another the better off both of them had been. The same goes for some light shining upon other subordinate commanders, especially, Bauer, Ronne and Weide: all of them already had been held in a high regard by Peter and praises in their address meant that an army is being run smoothly …. and that they’ll have no reason to criticize the superiors behind their backs. Peter may not act immediately upon such a criticism but he had a good memory and not the most forgiving character so everybody was one failure away from him summarizing the old sins and expressing his displeasure in one form or another.
Making the long story short, at the moment “figuring out” was mostly the Swedish problem.

[2] A stray bullet broke the reins of his horse and unfortunate captain was carried by a scared beast right into the midst of the Saxon troops.

[3] Taking into an account the general performance of Saxon troops in this war, it is anybody’s guess if getting these officers back was such a big bonus for August but at least the ice was broken.

[4] In OTL there was an addition “… while at the same time allowing enemy to destroy their own country” but now this is not the case.

[5] Needless to say that this logic found a full understanding and cooperation from his allies who already had been using their irregulars for its implementation.

[6] In OTL it was called at Sandomierz but, this city being on a route of Sheremetev’s march to Kliszow and garrisoned by the Russian troops, it is unlikely.

[7] In the couple places the local leadership demonstrated inadequate understanding of their duties and a honor related to an opportunity of meeting the Tsar of Russia but after the error of their ways had been properly explained, the rest proved to be the fast learners. Of course, the route had to be slightly adjusted to bypass the ruins.
 
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Interestingly Karl took his duties as the supreme judge of the country quite seriously, studying law quite extensively. In general, he was described as an able administrator, a disciplined worker and a very harsh but fair judge. I'm sure he will spend a lot of time like his father travelling, inspecting troops, rewarding dedication to duty and punishing corruption and derilict of duty. For some reason I think he would be happy that way, fading out of the big drama of the world of this story and managing his little corner of the world and doing it well.

Perhaps you could as some kind of tribute do quick "meanwhile in Sweden" interjections as Peter works feverishly to get supplies to his starving troops in an alternate Prut scenario, finally breaking through to his beleaguered men with gunpowder, food and vodka. Meanwhile, in Sweden Karl grants a silver coin to a city watchman who refused to let him into the city at night. Meanwhile in Sweden, Karl sentences a woman who murdered her infant to death by live burial. And so on. :p

Looking forward to the rest of the story.
I simply don’t know enough of the Swedish history to follow your advice regarding “meantime” as tempting as it is. OTOH, AFAIK (😜) there will be no starving Russian troops at Prut either. Not with the army Peter has and not with Peter thinking before acting.
 
Siege of Thorn (The Last Siege)
16. Siege of Thorn (The Last Siege)


In the May 1703 Charles formally started the siege of Thorn and, after an idea to take it by a cavalry charge [1] did not work and its garrison rejected demand to capitulate, Charles found himself sitting outside the city walls waiting for the reinforcements and siege artillery. While the siege train from Riga was still on the way, Charles sent Stenbock to bully city of Danzig into letting the Swedish garrison in, allowing to take its artillery to be used fir the siege of Thorn and paying a huge contribution. The city fathers bought the bluff and submitted.
In a meantime Charles was trying to play a military engineer, while also showing everybody what a brave guy he is.

1640059219449.png

The reinforcements kept arriving, including few Russian regiments, but even with the guns from Danzig things had been moving rather slowly.

In September almost simultaneously Charles received two messages: one that the siege train already reached Plock and second that Peter is even closer, in Brześć Kujawsk, and will be in his camp within couple days.

Of course, it was expected by both sides that Peter is going to arrive to Warsaw in November or December to met Charles in a proper stately environment fitting for such an important occasion but the planners on both sides (including Menshikov who surely should knew better) missed two important factors: (a) that Peter did not like the official ceremonies too much and (b) that he did like the sieges and the big “boom!” [2]. So at the news of the siege of Thorn he abandoned his stately process toward Warsaw (and most of his Guards), and with the detachment of his Life Dragoons rode full speed to Warsaw where he picked up Sheremetev, Menshikov and few others and kept pushing ahead.

Charles was surprised but not unpleasantly surprised because he also did not fancy a solemn occasion with the elaborate protocol, a lot of time being wasted upon the pointless ceremonies and empty compliments and Piper whispering into his ear what he should or he should not say. Weide, who was in charge of the Russian troops at Thorn hastily arranged for the tents for the expected visitors and and both Swedish and Russian foragers had been ordered to procure enough of food, which was not a trivial task in the already devastated area.

Finally, the visitors are arriving within the vicinity of the siege camp and Charles with his officers riding out of the camp to met them. Everybody dismounts and the two great men are facing each other. An elaborate rehearsal could not produce the better results. This is a meeting of two “true soldiers”: Charles in his blue and yellow uniform, huge botforts and without a wig and Peter in his well worn green and red uniform, huge botforts and a very modest wig, with their much better dressed retinues on a background emphasizing modesty of those who really matter. No elaborate bows, just a nod and a handshake followed by the loud cheer of everybody present. In other words, a truly historic moment duly recorded and a later depicted by the artists, described by the historians, writers and other personages not being present at the event [3]. Minimal time spent on expressing delight about the meeting and getting familiar with each other’s health condition, followed by “So, let’s pluck one more feather from peacock August’s tail. Hopefully, this is the last one!” Smile of appreciation from Charles and a loud but respectful laugh from the lesser personages and, breach of all protocols, and expressed desire to see the siege works right now. When in the trenches, cherry on the top of the cake: a request to make a shot from one of the Swedish guns. The Russians present at the scene politely trying to hide the smiles looking at the shock of the Swedes present. Peter in his shirt, assisted by Menshikov who had to divest of his parade garb and a huge wig, loads the cannon, aims it and “boom!”, the cannonball hits the wall. The uniform is back on (Menshikov is still fixing his wig), congratulation on a good quality of a cannon and gunpowder and the group finally walks to Charles’ tent where a modest table is prepared [4] . The next couple days Peter and Charles are busy choosing the places for the arriving siege artillery, then with overseeing its placement and then Peter is getting extremely busy putting himself in charge of one of the siege batteries. No talk about the state business, just soldiers’ chat about the ongoing siege and recollections of the past experiences. Peter’s story about unsuccessful mining attempt during the first Azov campaign is a hit [5] and everybody is seemingly enjoying the situation while the defenses kept crumbling.

In October the garrison surrenders, leaving August pretty much without an army. During the celebration banquet Peter finally brings up the Important Question…


___________
[1] Actually, in OTL more than once the fortified cities held by the reasonably strong Polish or Saxon garrison had been taken either directly by cavalry charge (like Pultusk) or by the dismounted dragoons (like Lemberg).
[2] He also figured out that, besides presenting an opportunity to enjoy the big “boom!”, environment of a siege camp would put both him and Charles at ease allowing to discuss things without caring about the protocol and to get more out of his dear ally. Charles’ principles were fine but Peter could not continue this war forever without a negative impact on his Big Plan. So, hopefully, if his mission is successful, this will be the Last Siege of the War.
[3] On a more cynical level the scene can be described as meeting of two poseurs but both of them seemingly liked their “historic” costumes and simple manners. Anyway, this little show is nothing comparing to what century+ later Nappy arranged in Erfurt. One by one the minor German princes, in their best garb are appearing in the reception hall with the full titles being loudly announced. Then the marshals and the imoerial dignitaries are following in the clownish ceremonial uniforms Nappy invented for them, with all decorations proudly displayed and their titles announced. Then enter the kings with their spouses. Then, with her full title announced, enters Josephine proudly displaying all glittering baubles that she can physically put on. Then follows “a loud pause” after which the Master of Ceremonies announcing, short and simple, “His Majesty, the Emperor!” and here comes Nappy in his simple uniform …. Well, you can’t blame people for not being up to the same level as an ultimate showman. 😂
[4] This was the only way in which I figured out how to bypass a menu of the royal table described by @von Adler 😜😜😜😜😜
[5] The fact that few hundred Russians had been killed when the Ottomans blew a counter mine is conveniently omitted.
 
Excellent update. I know it is your general tone, and that you treat everyone you write about that way, but I must point out that Karl was tutored by Carl Magnus Stuart, one of the most prominent fortification engineers of his era, who had studied fortification work in Britain, Switzerland, the Netherlands, northern Italy and Austria.

[4] This was the only way in which I figured out how to bypass a menu of the royal table described by @von Adler 😜😜😜😜

Why would you NOT want that? :p
 
He made a neutrality treaty with Prussia and it was Prussia who broke the treaty.
I thought that treaty came after the siege of Thorn and isn't something we have got to yet in this TL (at least when I made my post)
For a person who made his declared principle to be against the “unjust wars” and its practice to punish (or at least to try) those who are conducting such wars, and being quite idealistic in his belief into the treaties
Well, Prussia did 'unjustly' take some of Swedish Pomerania off Grand-daddy when they violated a treaty...
Charles in your interpretation looks as an absolutely opportunistic conqueror with an additional benefit of being a visionary capable of predicting the future. 😜

Well, the behavior you described had been typical in OTL for his neighbors but not to him.
...
We seemingly have slightly different views regarding his character and, anyway, Charles is not the main figure in this TL.
I would say your Charles is the Charles of Voltaire and his own Propaganda. But fair enough.
anyway, Charles is not the main figure in this TL.
Fair enough, I am enjoying your TL and look forward to further updates.
 
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While the siege train from Riga was still on the way, Charles sent Stenbock to bully city of Danzig into letting the Swedish garrison in, allowing to take its artillery to be used fir the siege of Thorn and paying a huge contribution. The city fathers bought the bluff and submitted.
Wait, Danzig accepted a garrison?

Ok, Charles needs to cool his heels and play nice with the maritime powers for a bit (while also most diplomatically XD holding the sword of damocles of maybe marching on Vienna in support of France if they don't play nice with him). I retract all my suggestions. Of course he would be a damn fool to ever let that garrison leave now it is inside those impressive fortifications you showed us.

Now this is a win for Sweden.
 
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Excellent update. I know it is your general tone, and that you treat everyone you write about that way, but I must point out that Karl was tutored by Carl Magnus Stuart, one of the most prominent fortification engineers of his era, who had studied fortification work in Britain, Switzerland, the Netherlands, northern Italy and Austria.
To start with, “being tutored” and being skillful in something is not always the same: I was tutored by an excellent mathematician and even got good marks while studying and if you think that I’m any good in mathematics…… 😢😢😢😢

Second, at the siege of Poltava he called Axel Gyllenkrok his top authority on the siegecraft (“our little Vauban”) even if Gyllenkrok denied a honor. Surely, for a skillful military engineer siege of a small town protected by the earthworks and stockade should be a piece of cake. To be fair, plan of the siege shows some parallels being constructed but at that time everybody knew about them and they are anything but impressive.

1640086398259.jpeg

Finally, Peter even got an official diploma of a certified artilleryman but playing one still was not really his business: both he and Charles had to have the competent subordinates for these tasks.

And finally, finally, because if I became absolutely serious, the whole thing will become boring (both to write and to read). 😜😜

Why would you NOT want that? :p
Three reasons:
1st, just to tease you a tiny little bit (😜)
2nd, because a good table spoils the intended scenario: knowing Charles’ personality, Peter is playing “soldier to soldier” scenario. Two soldier-kings are meeting each other disregarding a protocol, concentrating on the military business, enjoying a simple food and tough living conditions, blahblahblah…. Peter needs to gain enough of Charles trust and personal sympathy to push through his main goal, end the war ASAP.
3. AFAIK, supply situation in a besiegers camp was not very good and in this TL Charles simply does not have time for arranging an elaborate banquet and even an elaborate dinner. Notice that I said nothing about their menus during the siege: the important point had been made by both sides during the first meeting and after that they may relax (anyway, Peter seemingly liked the plain food). 😉
 
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I also think people fail to get a important factor in teaching rulers warcraft, statecraft and economy, it’s not so that they can do all these thing themselves, but so that they can recognize incompetents and charlatans. Knowing who is full of shit is a important factor in running a organization.
 
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Wait, Danzig accepted a garrison?

Ok, Charles needs to cool his heels and play nice with the maritime powers for a bit (while also most diplomatically XD holding the sword of damocles of maybe marching on Vienna in support of France if they don't play nice with him). I retract all my suggestions. Of course he would be a damn fool to ever let that garrison leave now it is inside those impressive fortifications you showed us.

Now this is a win for Sweden.
This was a win for conduct of the war: Charles needed money, artillery and supplies. In OTL he refused to consider the territorial acquisitions at the PLC expense (but extensive looting and destruction were OK) because this would undermine what he considered to be his moral high ground: position of defender of Poland against its bad king. We can only guess what were his long term plans but he did not sign any treaty regarding the territorial concessions with his puppet king so it is possible to assume that both Danzig and Elblag were just temporary measures even if because otherwise he would severely undermine the puppet’s regime and his own goal of having a friendly PLC.

Of course, we can also assume that they were not and that he was intended to stay in these places forever regardless the consequences.

Basically, we can assume whatever we want and for this TL I’m assuming that Charles is going to play nicely and not to be an impediment to Peter’s adventures on the South. 😜
 
I also think people fail to get a important factor in teaching rulers warcraft, statecraft and economy, it’s not so that they can do all these thing themselves, but so that they can recognize incompetents and charlatans. Knowing who is full of shit is a important factor in running a organization.
Exactly. To Peter’s credit, with all his drawbacks, he did manage to find and promote the good specialists in the areas he considered important.
 
This was a win for conduct of the war: Charles needed money, artillery and supplies. In OTL he refused to consider the territorial acquisitions at the PLC expense (but extensive looting and destruction were OK) because this would undermine what he considered to be his moral high ground: position of defender of Poland against its bad king. We can only guess what were his long term plans but he did not sign any treaty regarding the territorial concessions with his puppet king so it is possible to assume that both Danzig and Elblag were just temporary measures even if because otherwise he would severely undermine the puppet’s regime and his own goal of having a friendly PLC.

Of course, we can also assume that they were not and that he was intended to stay in these places forever regardless the consequences.

Basically, we can assume whatever we want and for this TL I’m assuming that Charles is going to play nicely and not to be an impediment to Peter’s adventures on the South. 😜
Which is cool. But if Charles lets Peter take PLC Territory (which is I assume where you are going) for his southern adventures then Charles has no moral high ground or PLC friendship to lose by keeping Danzig and environs. If he bags Danzig I recommend no war with Prussia and playing nice with maritime powers as realistic, good strategy and in character.

Looking forward to said southern adventures.
 
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