I think there might have been a repetition in this part?
Other than that, how does this trading compares to Russian OTL efforts to penetrate into the Central Asian economy?
No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)
- Thread starter alexmilman
- Start date
Other than that, how does this trading compares to Russian OTL efforts to penetrate into the Central Asian economy?
Oops. Thanks for noticing. This was edited and explanation of a general situation added.
Penetration did fail in OTL: the Russian merchants were not welcomed into the Khanates of the CA. It would take a time and a lot of factors, from advances in a weaponry to the British attempts to get into the CA from India, for the Russian government to adopt a more aggressive approach and conquer the region.
With the exception of an earlier schedule of establishing border trade, I did not change anything of a substance: it simply would not make sense IITL to start major conquest at that time because there was no British competition from India and the border trade was profitable and robust enough. Anyway, conquest would require a complete control over Kazakh Juzes with the Russian border forts set in the Southern Kazakhstan, the roads improved, etc.
Question to everybody
Question to @von Adler , @Jürgen and everybody else who has a clue regarding, Scandinavian and colonial affairs of that period:
“A later attempt to establish the Swedish trade on the East Indies was made by pirates sailing out from Madagascar. After having attacked other trading ships, they had become wealthy and were looking for a place to settle down and invest their money in legitimate enterprise. The pirates numbered about 1,500 and commanded a considerable and well-armed fleet of ships. They started by offering the Swedish King Charles XII half a million pounds sterling and 25 armed ships for his protection, but the matter was not resolved. In 1718, representatives for the pirates met again with the King at his camp during the campaign against Norway. The new offer was for 60 ships, armed and stocked with goods, if the pirates were allowed to settle down in Gothenburg and start a trade with the East Indies under the Swedish flag. One privateer by the name of Morgan actually obtained a charter for an East India Company and a letter of appointment for himself as governor over the colonies that could be the result of such an enterprise. When the King was shot and died on 30 November 1718, the venture folded.”
en.m.wikipedia.org
Could Charles XII accept such an offer (if this was not a legend) and if he did, what are the consequences? How the colonial trade is impacted, could Sweden maintain a base at Madagascar or did the pirates want to move completely out of it to Sweden? etc.
Any ideas?
If the whole schema is plausible, then what is a chance for the Baltic Mafia joining its efforts and wrestling for itself an ecological niche in trade with China (less competition) and India. As I understand, there were quite a few British and Dutch merchants who did not make it into their countries’ East India companies and looked for opportunity to get into it under the foreign flags. Something of the kind seemingly happened with the Swedish East India Co in OTL. Of course, this would be probably different from the existing/ongoing colonial territorial acquisitions (these would be linked to a specific country) but these colonies could be something of the naval bases for the extended trade.
If realistic, the whole thing is really tempting. Not that I’m planning the Russian/Swedish/Danish/Holsteinian/etc. capture of London (with a mandatory hanging of the PM) but a scenario in which the Perfidious Albion is a little bit squeezed is tempting.
“A later attempt to establish the Swedish trade on the East Indies was made by pirates sailing out from Madagascar. After having attacked other trading ships, they had become wealthy and were looking for a place to settle down and invest their money in legitimate enterprise. The pirates numbered about 1,500 and commanded a considerable and well-armed fleet of ships. They started by offering the Swedish King Charles XII half a million pounds sterling and 25 armed ships for his protection, but the matter was not resolved. In 1718, representatives for the pirates met again with the King at his camp during the campaign against Norway. The new offer was for 60 ships, armed and stocked with goods, if the pirates were allowed to settle down in Gothenburg and start a trade with the East Indies under the Swedish flag. One privateer by the name of Morgan actually obtained a charter for an East India Company and a letter of appointment for himself as governor over the colonies that could be the result of such an enterprise. When the King was shot and died on 30 November 1718, the venture folded.”
Swedish East India Company - Wikipedia
Could Charles XII accept such an offer (if this was not a legend) and if he did, what are the consequences? How the colonial trade is impacted, could Sweden maintain a base at Madagascar or did the pirates want to move completely out of it to Sweden? etc.
Any ideas?
If the whole schema is plausible, then what is a chance for the Baltic Mafia joining its efforts and wrestling for itself an ecological niche in trade with China (less competition) and India. As I understand, there were quite a few British and Dutch merchants who did not make it into their countries’ East India companies and looked for opportunity to get into it under the foreign flags. Something of the kind seemingly happened with the Swedish East India Co in OTL. Of course, this would be probably different from the existing/ongoing colonial territorial acquisitions (these would be linked to a specific country) but these colonies could be something of the naval bases for the extended trade.
If realistic, the whole thing is really tempting. Not that I’m planning the Russian/Swedish/Danish/Holsteinian/etc. capture of London (with a mandatory hanging of the PM) but a scenario in which the Perfidious Albion is a little bit squeezed is tempting.
Last edited:
Question to @von Adler , @Jürgen and everybody else who has a clue regarding, Scandinavian and colonial affairs of that period:
“A later attempt to establish the Swedish trade on the East Indies was made by pirates sailing out from Madagascar. After having attacked other trading ships, they had become wealthy and were looking for a place to settle down and invest their money in legitimate enterprise. The pirates numbered about 1,500 and commanded a considerable and well-armed fleet of ships. They started by offering the Swedish King Charles XII half a million pounds sterling and 25 armed ships for his protection, but the matter was not resolved. In 1718, representatives for the pirates met again with the King at his camp during the campaign against Norway. The new offer was for 60 ships, armed and stocked with goods, if the pirates were allowed to settle down in Gothenburg and start a trade with the East Indies under the Swedish flag. One privateer by the name of Morgan actually obtained a charter for an East India Company and a letter of appointment for himself as governor over the colonies that could be the result of such an enterprise. When the King was shot and died on 30 November 1718, the venture folded.”
Swedish East India Company - Wikipedia
Could Charles XII accept such an offer (if this was not a legend) and if he did, what are the consequences? How the colonial trade is impacted, could Sweden maintain a base at Madagascar or did the pirates want to move completely out of it to Sweden? etc.
Any ideas?
If the whole schema is plausible, then what is a chance for the Baltic Mafia joining its efforts and wrestling for itself an ecological niche in trade with China (less competition) and India. As I understand, there were quite a few British and Dutch merchants who did not make it into their countries’ East India companies and looked for opportunity to get into it under the foreign flags. Something of the kind seemingly happened with the Swedish East India Co in OTL. Of course, this would be probably different from the existing/ongoing colonial territorial acquisitions (these would be linked to a specific country) but these colonies could be something of the naval bases for the extended trade.
If realistic, the whole thing is really tempting. Not that I’m planning the Russian/Swedish/Danish/Holsteinian/etc. capture of London (with a mandatory hanging of the PM) but a scenario in which the Perfidious Albion is a little bit squeezed is tempting.
The main problem is that the best spots are taken and Scandinavia has a far poorer population. Best case would be the Baltic Mafia agreed to and could monopolize the Baltic trade, this would give them the capital and incentive to finance colonial empires.
If ITTL Maria Amalia of Austria's (youngest daughter of the Emperor Joseph I) and her husband the Elector Charles of Bavaria's (IOTL Emperor Charles VII) first child in 1723 is a healthy son called Maximilian Joseph in honour of his both grandfathers (IOTL that first child was a girl who died at a very short age), and the Emperor Charles VI doesn't have a male heir and only has daughters as IOTL, his eldest daughter Maria Theresa of Austria could marry the aforementioned alternate Maximilian Joseph of Bavaria.
That marriage would lead to an Austro-Bavarian very strong alliance and an eventual personal union between both territories, which would be very useful for unifying both Austrian and Bavarian claims to the imperial succession and the Habsburg lands after Charles VI's death, and to face firmly the eventual probable Saxon ambitions in the same way.
That marriage would lead to an Austro-Bavarian very strong alliance and an eventual personal union between both territories, which would be very useful for unifying both Austrian and Bavarian claims to the imperial succession and the Habsburg lands after Charles VI's death, and to face firmly the eventual probable Saxon ambitions in the same way.
Dispensing Indispensable
73. Dispensing Indispensable
“There are no irreplaceable ones, but there are unique ones.”
Picasso
“And the irreplaceable ones were replaced. And the unique ones were surpassed.”
Unknown author
“There are useful people, but there are no necessary ones”
Robespierre
“There are no irreplaceable people; in politics, as in other activities, habit and skill do most of the work”
Marquis Louis-Antoine Caraccioli
Just Juel (admittedly, not the most trustworthy source) wrote about Menshikov: “In fact, Menshikov is the most arrogant person imaginable, he maintains a large court, has countless wealth and large wide outstretched estates, … despises everyone and enjoys the greatest favor of his sovereign. His level of mind is very mediocre and in any case does not correspond to the many important positions entrusted to him. Menshikov speaks decent German, so it is easy to understand him, and he himself understands what he is told, but he can neither read nor write a letter, he can sign his name but in a way, which no one is able to disassemble if he does not know what it is in advance.”
Talented and energetic, Alexander Menshikov did not stop at anything to meet the needs that arose as a result of Peter’s activities; his quick, decisive actions were quite consistent with the boiling energy of the Tsar; deprived of any, even elementary education (he could barely sign his name), he made up for this deficiency with natural ingenuity. For these talents Peter valued him very high and showered with all types of the awards. Menshikov become on of the richest people in Russia (probably, the richest), had all Russian state awards and a number of the foreign ones. Was elevated to the rank of a full general regardless rather questionable performance during the Ottoman War and became a governor-general of Moscow.
However, Meshnikov was driven not so much by the clear understanding of the principles motivating the Tsar, but rather by his own selfish motives, and these latter gave his whole figure a special color. Unprecedentedly enriched by Peter, he became a virtuoso of theft. Peter reprimanded his favorite, beat him with a cane, threatened, and everything was in vain. Alexander Menshikov surrounded himself with a gang of official predators who enriched themselves and their patron at the expense of the treasury. Of these, Moscow Vice-Governor Korsakov and two senators, Prince Volkonsky and Opukhtin, were publicly carved with a whip. Menshikov was saved from the massacre by Peter's long-standing friendship. Governor-general of Siberia, Prince Gagarin ended up being hanged but Menshikov, whom he kept in the bribes of all types, got away untouched.
In 1714 Menshikov became one of the defendants in the case of abuses under various contracts and was fined about one and a half million rubles. In 1717, the so-called “Pochep case” began, related to Menshikov's accusation of illegally seizing estates of the Polish nobility and his Russian neighbors, and turning Ukrainian Cossacks into the serfs, which became the subject of proceedings in the Senate and special commissions and undermined his trust from the tsar. Peter I deprived him of several estates, tobacco monopoly, and imposed a fine but still left him in his position of Governor-general of the capital and tended to overlook the enormous expenses of Moscow’s “upgrading”: while managing to pave only 1.000 meters of the Moscow River embankment, Menshikov found time and money to build his own summer palace in Oranienbaum, near Peter’s summer residence in Peterhof.
Probably things could keep going this way “forever” because Peter valued Menshikov’s ability to act on implementation of Tsar’s wishes instead of procrastinating, waiting for the decrees and attempts to avoid the individual responsibility, which were modus operandi of most of his subordinates. That, an unquestionable ability to be entertaining, kept saving Menshikov for years. But a feeling that he is above the law was gradually making its impact and he started loosing a touch with a reality.
The first, seemingly insignificant, case was his attempt to replace Sheremetev as a head of the Military Collegium. He was arguing that the fieldmarshal is getting old and it should be difficult for him to perform all administrative duties related to this position. This did not work out because, besides having a deep respect to his fieldmarshal, Peter did not see any reason to complain about the Collegium’s operations (and, while there were no doubts regarding personal honesty of Sheremetev and his deputy, general Veyde, Peter had a serious suspicion that Menshikov would try to convert this Collegium into one more cash cow). Neither did Peter acquiescent to Menshikov’s pleas to make him a fieldmarshal: such a promotion would be undeserved and definitely offensive to more prominent generals starting with Michael Golitsyn.
However, the squabble with the Young Court was a completely different kettle of fish because, besides the domestic implications, it could produce a completely undesirable international impact and, in the worst case scenario, destroy the whole Baltic System on which Peter worked so hard. Of course, Menshikov was ordered to behave appropriately but his good behavior did not stretch to controlling his private conversations and, in his capacity of governor-general he was not above the pinpricks creating the minor problems with the supplies for the Young Court. Not always serious enough for the Cesarevna Elena to complain to Peter but still annoying and she did not like to be annoyed. There was no need to go directly to Peter when the issues could be brought up in a friendly chat with Empress Maria who would pass information to her husband with some comments of her own. As the old wisdom says, “the hen pecks grain by grain - the whole yard is in chicken manure”.
Then there were problems with the fulfilling requests from the State Control Collegium and Justice Collegium (of which Alexey had oversight): minor abuses of their staff, supply problems, access to the guarded documentation, etc. Each accident was blamed upon the stupid or excessively zealous subordinates and resolved but all this meant waste of the time and effort.
Then came serious things. Of course, Sheremetev used to be friendly with Menshikov but when governor-general started making his own rules and regulation for the garrison of Moscow bypassing the Military Collegium and ignored request for explanation, this had to be reported to the Emperor and Peter was not amused. Menshikov was severely rebuked and warned that he may lose his position if he continues to behave this way. There was an usual scene of repentance, blaming of everybody else for the misunderstanding and assurance that this was done only out if the eagerness to serve. Peter even issued an order to the Collegium to review the new practices and adopts the useful ones. However, Menshikov’s attempt to use the whole episode for a new attempt to get an appointment as a President of the Military Collegium had been severely rebuked with an unambiguous explanation that he is not on the list of possible candidates. But Peter took notice of the fact that Menshikov is trying to promote his own popularity among the garrison and especially among the Guards. Of course, this could be Menshikov’s usual modus operandi and a sincere attempt to make some improvements but OTOH this also could be something much more sinister than his usual insubordination and excessive eagerness.
The second option got a serious traction when a new head of the Secret Chancellery, Peter Tolstoy, reported Menshikov’s drunken statement regarding the Guards. Added to the recent “misunderstanding” with the Military Collegium, this started looking much closer to some kind of a conspiracy and the routine drinking parties in Menshikov’s residence could be not only about drinking [1].
All these complaints coming in parallel with the ongoing “Pochep case” investigation, report from the Collegium of Foreign Affairs that the tensions between the Young Court and Menshikov are known to Charles XII and circulating rumors that Menshikov laid his hands upon some stuff from the Kremlin Armory [2] made Menshikov’s situation quite bad. What made it hopeless was Peter’s changed attitude to the imperial administration. Of course, during the first years of his rule he need to break many things and to do even more things from the scratch. For this stage he needed people with the initiative who could achieve the needed results disregarding the cost. Now this stage was over and he needed the people capable and willing to operate within the system that he created, following the rules and laws and counting money. Menshikov with his insatiable greed and inability to follow the rules became not just a bad example, he became a liability domestically and even internationally.
However, Peter still had a lot of warm feelings toward him and was unwilling to disregard his important services of the past. The official (and only) newspaper, «Московские Ведомости» informed the public that, due to the ill health, governor-general of Moscow, Prince Aleksander Danilovich Menshikov, general of cavalry and cavalier, asked to be relieved of his duties and, after receiving permission, left Moscow and goes to his estate in Baturin. It was not reported that Menshikov had to return to the Treasury 500,000 rubles. However, his palaces and estates were not confiscated and there were no other usual byproducts of the disfavor. He was just removed from power.
Now, Peter had to find a suitable figure for a new governor-general. A person has to be aristocratic, rich enough not to be easily corruptible, obedient and competent enough to execute Peter’s orders and not suffering from having his own ideas. The lucky candidate was Prince Ivan Yurievich Trubetskoy, the last Russian boyarin.
Aristocratic, rich, married to Naryshkina (but also connected to the other branch of the family), spent few years in Sweden as an ambassador [3]. “Prince Trubetskoy was [the largest brute ; no one respected him; ignorant in military art,] very simple and vain, however, a kind man; he stuttered.” A reasonably good guarantee for an absence of the surprises and presentable behavior.
__________________
[1] This may look like a paranoia but Peter was paranoid. During his reign the the people had been executed based upon seemingly crazy accusations. In 1697 Tsykler and two other noblemen had been quartered (IIRC after being broken on a wheel) because two Tsykler’s subordinates reported that he wanted to set on fire the house in which Peter resided. Not to forget the whole “Alexey’s conspiracy”: a circle of the “conspirators” included even a person who simply borrowed him some money.
[2] Peter Tolstoy was a subtle person and under him Secret Chancellery was not limiting its activities to just looking for the existing conspiracies.
[3] In OTL after being captured at Narva. While being there (with his wife) was accepted at the Swedish court and managed to get a bastard son from baroness von Wrede whom he recognized under surname “Betskoy”.
“There are no irreplaceable ones, but there are unique ones.”
Picasso
“And the irreplaceable ones were replaced. And the unique ones were surpassed.”
Unknown author
“There are useful people, but there are no necessary ones”
Robespierre
“There are no irreplaceable people; in politics, as in other activities, habit and skill do most of the work”
Marquis Louis-Antoine Caraccioli
Just Juel (admittedly, not the most trustworthy source) wrote about Menshikov: “In fact, Menshikov is the most arrogant person imaginable, he maintains a large court, has countless wealth and large wide outstretched estates, … despises everyone and enjoys the greatest favor of his sovereign. His level of mind is very mediocre and in any case does not correspond to the many important positions entrusted to him. Menshikov speaks decent German, so it is easy to understand him, and he himself understands what he is told, but he can neither read nor write a letter, he can sign his name but in a way, which no one is able to disassemble if he does not know what it is in advance.”
Talented and energetic, Alexander Menshikov did not stop at anything to meet the needs that arose as a result of Peter’s activities; his quick, decisive actions were quite consistent with the boiling energy of the Tsar; deprived of any, even elementary education (he could barely sign his name), he made up for this deficiency with natural ingenuity. For these talents Peter valued him very high and showered with all types of the awards. Menshikov become on of the richest people in Russia (probably, the richest), had all Russian state awards and a number of the foreign ones. Was elevated to the rank of a full general regardless rather questionable performance during the Ottoman War and became a governor-general of Moscow.
However, Meshnikov was driven not so much by the clear understanding of the principles motivating the Tsar, but rather by his own selfish motives, and these latter gave his whole figure a special color. Unprecedentedly enriched by Peter, he became a virtuoso of theft. Peter reprimanded his favorite, beat him with a cane, threatened, and everything was in vain. Alexander Menshikov surrounded himself with a gang of official predators who enriched themselves and their patron at the expense of the treasury. Of these, Moscow Vice-Governor Korsakov and two senators, Prince Volkonsky and Opukhtin, were publicly carved with a whip. Menshikov was saved from the massacre by Peter's long-standing friendship. Governor-general of Siberia, Prince Gagarin ended up being hanged but Menshikov, whom he kept in the bribes of all types, got away untouched.
In 1714 Menshikov became one of the defendants in the case of abuses under various contracts and was fined about one and a half million rubles. In 1717, the so-called “Pochep case” began, related to Menshikov's accusation of illegally seizing estates of the Polish nobility and his Russian neighbors, and turning Ukrainian Cossacks into the serfs, which became the subject of proceedings in the Senate and special commissions and undermined his trust from the tsar. Peter I deprived him of several estates, tobacco monopoly, and imposed a fine but still left him in his position of Governor-general of the capital and tended to overlook the enormous expenses of Moscow’s “upgrading”: while managing to pave only 1.000 meters of the Moscow River embankment, Menshikov found time and money to build his own summer palace in Oranienbaum, near Peter’s summer residence in Peterhof.
Probably things could keep going this way “forever” because Peter valued Menshikov’s ability to act on implementation of Tsar’s wishes instead of procrastinating, waiting for the decrees and attempts to avoid the individual responsibility, which were modus operandi of most of his subordinates. That, an unquestionable ability to be entertaining, kept saving Menshikov for years. But a feeling that he is above the law was gradually making its impact and he started loosing a touch with a reality.
The first, seemingly insignificant, case was his attempt to replace Sheremetev as a head of the Military Collegium. He was arguing that the fieldmarshal is getting old and it should be difficult for him to perform all administrative duties related to this position. This did not work out because, besides having a deep respect to his fieldmarshal, Peter did not see any reason to complain about the Collegium’s operations (and, while there were no doubts regarding personal honesty of Sheremetev and his deputy, general Veyde, Peter had a serious suspicion that Menshikov would try to convert this Collegium into one more cash cow). Neither did Peter acquiescent to Menshikov’s pleas to make him a fieldmarshal: such a promotion would be undeserved and definitely offensive to more prominent generals starting with Michael Golitsyn.
However, the squabble with the Young Court was a completely different kettle of fish because, besides the domestic implications, it could produce a completely undesirable international impact and, in the worst case scenario, destroy the whole Baltic System on which Peter worked so hard. Of course, Menshikov was ordered to behave appropriately but his good behavior did not stretch to controlling his private conversations and, in his capacity of governor-general he was not above the pinpricks creating the minor problems with the supplies for the Young Court. Not always serious enough for the Cesarevna Elena to complain to Peter but still annoying and she did not like to be annoyed. There was no need to go directly to Peter when the issues could be brought up in a friendly chat with Empress Maria who would pass information to her husband with some comments of her own. As the old wisdom says, “the hen pecks grain by grain - the whole yard is in chicken manure”.
Then there were problems with the fulfilling requests from the State Control Collegium and Justice Collegium (of which Alexey had oversight): minor abuses of their staff, supply problems, access to the guarded documentation, etc. Each accident was blamed upon the stupid or excessively zealous subordinates and resolved but all this meant waste of the time and effort.
Then came serious things. Of course, Sheremetev used to be friendly with Menshikov but when governor-general started making his own rules and regulation for the garrison of Moscow bypassing the Military Collegium and ignored request for explanation, this had to be reported to the Emperor and Peter was not amused. Menshikov was severely rebuked and warned that he may lose his position if he continues to behave this way. There was an usual scene of repentance, blaming of everybody else for the misunderstanding and assurance that this was done only out if the eagerness to serve. Peter even issued an order to the Collegium to review the new practices and adopts the useful ones. However, Menshikov’s attempt to use the whole episode for a new attempt to get an appointment as a President of the Military Collegium had been severely rebuked with an unambiguous explanation that he is not on the list of possible candidates. But Peter took notice of the fact that Menshikov is trying to promote his own popularity among the garrison and especially among the Guards. Of course, this could be Menshikov’s usual modus operandi and a sincere attempt to make some improvements but OTOH this also could be something much more sinister than his usual insubordination and excessive eagerness.
The second option got a serious traction when a new head of the Secret Chancellery, Peter Tolstoy, reported Menshikov’s drunken statement regarding the Guards. Added to the recent “misunderstanding” with the Military Collegium, this started looking much closer to some kind of a conspiracy and the routine drinking parties in Menshikov’s residence could be not only about drinking [1].
All these complaints coming in parallel with the ongoing “Pochep case” investigation, report from the Collegium of Foreign Affairs that the tensions between the Young Court and Menshikov are known to Charles XII and circulating rumors that Menshikov laid his hands upon some stuff from the Kremlin Armory [2] made Menshikov’s situation quite bad. What made it hopeless was Peter’s changed attitude to the imperial administration. Of course, during the first years of his rule he need to break many things and to do even more things from the scratch. For this stage he needed people with the initiative who could achieve the needed results disregarding the cost. Now this stage was over and he needed the people capable and willing to operate within the system that he created, following the rules and laws and counting money. Menshikov with his insatiable greed and inability to follow the rules became not just a bad example, he became a liability domestically and even internationally.
However, Peter still had a lot of warm feelings toward him and was unwilling to disregard his important services of the past. The official (and only) newspaper, «Московские Ведомости» informed the public that, due to the ill health, governor-general of Moscow, Prince Aleksander Danilovich Menshikov, general of cavalry and cavalier, asked to be relieved of his duties and, after receiving permission, left Moscow and goes to his estate in Baturin. It was not reported that Menshikov had to return to the Treasury 500,000 rubles. However, his palaces and estates were not confiscated and there were no other usual byproducts of the disfavor. He was just removed from power.
Now, Peter had to find a suitable figure for a new governor-general. A person has to be aristocratic, rich enough not to be easily corruptible, obedient and competent enough to execute Peter’s orders and not suffering from having his own ideas. The lucky candidate was Prince Ivan Yurievich Trubetskoy, the last Russian boyarin.
Aristocratic, rich, married to Naryshkina (but also connected to the other branch of the family), spent few years in Sweden as an ambassador [3]. “Prince Trubetskoy was [the largest brute ; no one respected him; ignorant in military art,] very simple and vain, however, a kind man; he stuttered.” A reasonably good guarantee for an absence of the surprises and presentable behavior.
__________________
[1] This may look like a paranoia but Peter was paranoid. During his reign the the people had been executed based upon seemingly crazy accusations. In 1697 Tsykler and two other noblemen had been quartered (IIRC after being broken on a wheel) because two Tsykler’s subordinates reported that he wanted to set on fire the house in which Peter resided. Not to forget the whole “Alexey’s conspiracy”: a circle of the “conspirators” included even a person who simply borrowed him some money.
[2] Peter Tolstoy was a subtle person and under him Secret Chancellery was not limiting its activities to just looking for the existing conspiracies.
[3] In OTL after being captured at Narva. While being there (with his wife) was accepted at the Swedish court and managed to get a bastard son from baroness von Wrede whom he recognized under surname “Betskoy”.
The question is strictly about a trade aspect of the colonial activities: neither Denmark nor Sweden could grab a big chunk of a valuable territory and held it against the British, Dutch or French competition.
Well, just some general thoughts.Could Charles XII accept such an offer (if this was not a legend) and if he did, what are the consequences? How the colonial trade is impacted, could Sweden maintain a base at Madagascar or did the pirates want to move completely out of it to Sweden? etc.
Any ideas?
If the whole schema is plausible, then what is a chance for the Baltic Mafia joining its efforts and wrestling for itself an ecological niche in trade with China (less competition) and India. As I understand, there were quite a few British and Dutch merchants who did not make it into their countries’ East India companies and looked for opportunity to get into it under the foreign flags. Something of the kind seemingly happened with the Swedish East India Co in OTL. Of course, this would be probably different from the existing/ongoing colonial territorial acquisitions (these would be linked to a specific country) but these colonies could be something of the naval bases for the extended trade.
If realistic, the whole thing is really tempting. Not that I’m planning the Russian/Swedish/Danish/Holsteinian/etc. capture of London (with a mandatory hanging of the PM) but a scenario in which the Perfidious Albion is a little bit squeezed is tempting.
In the terms of this story, I'd say there would be more chance of it here than in the legend stated. Trade with the East Indies is less about population as ships, merchants, and funding, and the Baltic has suddenly become far less contested territory due to your Baltic Mafia. Less need to have strong Baltic squadrons ready to take on their neighbors,. All the members are getting more money from the Dutch and English being squeezed more in the Baltic trade, which means funding and prosperous merchants. The Mafia's complete control over the Baltic also would lessen risk of someone just aiming to take them out. You wrote on how much England was not happy with tar and hemp being restricted due to the war with the Danes. Too aggressive predation to any such company would risk a backlash that would affect more than England's own East India Trading Company. If they become too successful the calculus might change, but it's arguably much like the Danish sugar from St. Croix. It doesn't have to at all match the English or Dutch in volume, just provide an alternative source that they can point to when demanding better prices.
With Charles basically going full in on Sweden not needing more land right now, internal development has to be the focus. That will include its merchant class and trade. With Charles' dear brother in Russia expanding trade in new avenues, it's not outrageous he'd follow the example. It also has an advantage in Charles being an absolutist King compared to the OTL Swedish East India Trading Company. As Peter shows very well, a king with an 'idea' can have exert serious influence.
As for more specifics.
The Swedes learned the navigation trips decently quickly in OTL. They improved over time. So, I don't see much problem there. While I'm not sure the Ostend Company has closed yet, plenty of English merchants did join. The East is decently mapped by this point, so it's not like they can't figure this part out.
One slight change is if Denmark can be convinced to assist. Swedish ships had to leave Gothenburg in winter to make the best time, but by the time the winds were right there was a risk of ice that caused issues and delays. There wasn't much options at the time, but here if the SEIC can leave Gothenburg in two months early, stay in port in north Jutland or southern Norway till January, they should be able to more reliably leave on time. Cadiz, where they got silver, was still an issue of potential delays since they generally needed to round the Cape by June or July, but not much you can do there.
Whether Denmark allows this is obviously unsure, especially since they have a Danish East India Company right now. The Baltic Mafia already changes some things when it comes to these countries cooperating with trade though. Potentially a promise of mutual support and colonial defense would be enough (The French and Dutch refused Sweden such IOTL, and they didn't even ask the English) alongside acknowledging the West Indies as a Danish sphere of influence? Merchants or sailors of one can obviously work for the other company if they wish to take advantage of that.
As for Madagascar. I'm not sure how much of interest it would be. After the Cape, Swedish ships straight to China basically went straight east, and then north. Quicker than north and then east of most other companies. Surat is where one would be going to head past Madagascar, or Bengal. After Surat, they'd then go to other areas in India before heading to China. This obviously would involve interacting with more colonial powers, the Portugese, English, and Dutch. The Danish as well, since Tranquebar was still a thing. These powers preferred these routes as they were stopping at their established colonies and factories along the way. The Swedes IOTL preferred the St.Paul-Sunda route to China, not least because Indian textiles were viewed as a threat to Sweden's own textile industry.
Basically, the Madagascar pirates would be very useful they could provide some ties in Madagascar or one of the convenient smaller islands around it, but primarily for the Surat route. Not sure whether they could provide that though, or whether they intended to entirely settle in Gothenburg, or what. There was also an 'outside route' through the Mascarene Islands that could be used for China, but I think that one was more for a Bengal-China route. Not too sure there. They'd probably be more of aid to the Danish, although Swedish-Danish cooperation could make this route more popular. It's not like no Swedish ships ever went that way, it was just the subsidiary ventures as the Dutch and English were much more protective of Surat and India. Maybe a Bengal route that actually stops at Danish Tranquebar?
As for it as a wintering spot. On the journey to China, not making time generally meant a wintering in Sunda as they waited. Past Madagascar. Wintering also could happen in Canton, as the number of European ships grew greatly in the 18th century and loading them all started causing delays. There was some difficulties if one didn't get past the Cape of Good Hope in time on the return journey, but it doesn't appear that was an OTL issue. Only possible use is fresh water. There were several stops from the Cape on. If one of the islands around Madagascar could provide water, they might be able to push onto Fayal and avoid Saint Helena.
So, the pirates would provide navigation experience. They would mainly provide use though if India became a bigger stop than the OTL SEIC, where only six ships ever stopped there. Notably, Cadiz could be avoided for silver on the Surat route as well. If you are aiming for a more China focus, they provide less. They'd be more useful for the Danish.
As for how the Baltic Mafia would play in. It is notable that the Favorite Pet has learned how to make porcelain, although it wouldn't stop imports of porcelain for centuries. Already said a bit of Swedish-Danish problems/opportunities in the East Indies. Otherwise, there are few issues I see. The OTL SEIC allowed investors to actually obtain Swedish citizenship, so opportunities abound for merchants of allies. It really wouldn't be a purely 'Swedish' venture. It was profitable. They were also able to smuggle tea to Britain, so I'm sure they'd be competitive in the Baltic since they're the one's controlling regulations and tariffs on imports.
One slight change is if Denmark can be convinced to assist. Swedish ships had to leave Gothenburg in winter to make the best time, but by the time the winds were right there was a risk of ice that caused issues and delays. There wasn't much options at the time, but here if the SEIC can leave Gothenburg in two months early, stay in port in north Jutland or southern Norway till January, they should be able to more reliably leave on time. Cadiz, where they got silver, was still an issue of potential delays since they generally needed to round the Cape by June or July, but not much you can do there.
Whether Denmark allows this is obviously unsure, especially since they have a Danish East India Company right now. The Baltic Mafia already changes some things when it comes to these countries cooperating with trade though. Potentially a promise of mutual support and colonial defense would be enough (The French and Dutch refused Sweden such IOTL, and they didn't even ask the English) alongside acknowledging the West Indies as a Danish sphere of influence? Merchants or sailors of one can obviously work for the other company if they wish to take advantage of that.
As for Madagascar. I'm not sure how much of interest it would be. After the Cape, Swedish ships straight to China basically went straight east, and then north. Quicker than north and then east of most other companies. Surat is where one would be going to head past Madagascar, or Bengal. After Surat, they'd then go to other areas in India before heading to China. This obviously would involve interacting with more colonial powers, the Portugese, English, and Dutch. The Danish as well, since Tranquebar was still a thing. These powers preferred these routes as they were stopping at their established colonies and factories along the way. The Swedes IOTL preferred the St.Paul-Sunda route to China, not least because Indian textiles were viewed as a threat to Sweden's own textile industry.
Basically, the Madagascar pirates would be very useful they could provide some ties in Madagascar or one of the convenient smaller islands around it, but primarily for the Surat route. Not sure whether they could provide that though, or whether they intended to entirely settle in Gothenburg, or what. There was also an 'outside route' through the Mascarene Islands that could be used for China, but I think that one was more for a Bengal-China route. Not too sure there. They'd probably be more of aid to the Danish, although Swedish-Danish cooperation could make this route more popular. It's not like no Swedish ships ever went that way, it was just the subsidiary ventures as the Dutch and English were much more protective of Surat and India. Maybe a Bengal route that actually stops at Danish Tranquebar?
As for it as a wintering spot. On the journey to China, not making time generally meant a wintering in Sunda as they waited. Past Madagascar. Wintering also could happen in Canton, as the number of European ships grew greatly in the 18th century and loading them all started causing delays. There was some difficulties if one didn't get past the Cape of Good Hope in time on the return journey, but it doesn't appear that was an OTL issue. Only possible use is fresh water. There were several stops from the Cape on. If one of the islands around Madagascar could provide water, they might be able to push onto Fayal and avoid Saint Helena.
So, the pirates would provide navigation experience. They would mainly provide use though if India became a bigger stop than the OTL SEIC, where only six ships ever stopped there. Notably, Cadiz could be avoided for silver on the Surat route as well. If you are aiming for a more China focus, they provide less. They'd be more useful for the Danish.
As for how the Baltic Mafia would play in. It is notable that the Favorite Pet has learned how to make porcelain, although it wouldn't stop imports of porcelain for centuries. Already said a bit of Swedish-Danish problems/opportunities in the East Indies. Otherwise, there are few issues I see. The OTL SEIC allowed investors to actually obtain Swedish citizenship, so opportunities abound for merchants of allies. It really wouldn't be a purely 'Swedish' venture. It was profitable. They were also able to smuggle tea to Britain, so I'm sure they'd be competitive in the Baltic since they're the one's controlling regulations and tariffs on imports.
Not sure what else I can say...not even sure how I ended up writing so much.
Question to @von Adler , @Jürgen and everybody else who has a clue regarding, Scandinavian and colonial affairs of that period:
“A later attempt to establish the Swedish trade on the East Indies was made by pirates sailing out from Madagascar. After having attacked other trading ships, they had become wealthy and were looking for a place to settle down and invest their money in legitimate enterprise. The pirates numbered about 1,500 and commanded a considerable and well-armed fleet of ships. They started by offering the Swedish King Charles XII half a million pounds sterling and 25 armed ships for his protection, but the matter was not resolved. In 1718, representatives for the pirates met again with the King at his camp during the campaign against Norway. The new offer was for 60 ships, armed and stocked with goods, if the pirates were allowed to settle down in Gothenburg and start a trade with the East Indies under the Swedish flag. One privateer by the name of Morgan actually obtained a charter for an East India Company and a letter of appointment for himself as governor over the colonies that could be the result of such an enterprise. When the King was shot and died on 30 November 1718, the venture folded.”
Swedish East India Company - Wikipedia
Could Charles XII accept such an offer (if this was not a legend) and if he did, what are the consequences? How the colonial trade is impacted, could Sweden maintain a base at Madagascar or did the pirates want to move completely out of it to Sweden? etc.
Any ideas?
If the whole schema is plausible, then what is a chance for the Baltic Mafia joining its efforts and wrestling for itself an ecological niche in trade with China (less competition) and India. As I understand, there were quite a few British and Dutch merchants who did not make it into their countries’ East India companies and looked for opportunity to get into it under the foreign flags. Something of the kind seemingly happened with the Swedish East India Co in OTL. Of course, this would be probably different from the existing/ongoing colonial territorial acquisitions (these would be linked to a specific country) but these colonies could be something of the naval bases for the extended trade.
If realistic, the whole thing is really tempting. Not that I’m planning the Russian/Swedish/Danish/Holsteinian/etc. capture of London (with a mandatory hanging of the PM) but a scenario in which the Perfidious Albion is a little bit squeezed is tempting.
As far as I know, the negotiations were never really serious, and the pirates never offered anything monetary - it was the other way around, they asked for compensation.
In May 1714, the pirates in Madagascar sent a couple of represenatives that offered "25 well-armed ships" for letters of marque and economic compensation. It is not certain that the men that came actually represented the collective of Madagascarian pirates. One of them, Samuel S:t Léger, served as a privateer in Swedish service under the legendary privateer Lasse i Gatan/Lars Andersson Gathe/Lars Gatenhielm.
Sweden was trying to fit its own fleet and rebuilt its army after losing all of it AGAIN at Tönningen 1713 and had no money nor support to offer the pirates, who promptly went to Denmark after not getting any serious replies and offered the King of Denmark the same deal in 1716. It seems the Danes refused them and they were back in 1717 - this time represented by William Morgan and Jean Monnery, neither who had ever been at Madagascar and probably had no contacts with the actual pirates. It seems some kind of deal was being reached in Summer 1718, but it fell apart. Either because the King died, or because there was no money to be had for the pirates or their representatives, or because the Swedish representatives realised that the "representatives" were mostly conmen out for a quick buck.
Barring a desperate situation as OTL, I have a hard time seeing Karl associating with pirates or extending his royal protection to them - privateers may be ok, if the situation is desperate, but I doubt the scheme would succeed really.
Now, and East India Company is far more likely, especially if there has a been a war with George and the Altona Convention has fallen apart - there is no need to keep friendly relations with the naval powers anymore.
I have been quite busy lately, I need to read up on the latest development in this thread, and post the promised tactical doctrines.
Thanks, this was very helpful.
How about an extra twist? Sailing to the North to one of few Russian outposts on the Pacific, getting the furs, sailing South to Canton and selling them? IIRC, in OTL the first Russian circumnavigation involved something like that. Not sure of they got the furs on the Russian side or Alaska but this would be irrelevant in such scenario: the point is to provide some stimulus for the earlier Russian interest to the Pacific coast.
Thanks, the pirates are more or less irrelevant: I was just curious about the whole episode. The main idea is a possibility of getting the Mafia (all three naval-capable members) into the Far East trade adventure with an extra twist (perhaps too optimistic) of adding the fur trade off the Russian coast providing stimulus for earlier and more energetic Russian move Eastward. Not sure how and if this could fit into the whole trade schema, perhaps some additional company may be needed for this.
I am unsure on the currents and whatnot beyond Canton, so I can't say how much that extra journey would take. A round trip to Canton would take roughly 18 months if they didn't fall behind, 28 if forced to winter. That was rough amount of time already, without more time added on. On the other, that's long enough that a few more months added on wouldn't make a huge difference. If the route was safe/reliable and the furs went for enough (especially if it removed the need for silver) it could be very beneficial.
China didn't implement the Canton system till 1757, so ports further north in China were available. Just less used as Canton was the closest. Times spent in China also tended to grow, both from more ships requiring more time to load and as having someone there for the actual business of trade could help. I think I remember some traders would stay there for years at a time. That might be easier than trying to fit this extra bit onto the time table. One or two ships of the convoy each year splitting off to ply northern areas, the rest starting their return journey, and those staying meets the next convoy after having made the journey and potentially even having done some of the trade prep before said convoy's arrival.
There are issues though. China originally implemented the Canton system in response to foreigners searching out other areas when Canton became burdensome, but Sweden might have out out there if they are cooperating with the Russians. The Chinese weren't blind to that route of trade. Another issue is Japan and Korea though, which would basically have to be passed to reach Russian outposts. The Japanese have restricted trade to just the Dutch, and Korea was isolationist. Swedish ships would need somewhere to stop. If China isn't open with northern Chinese ports, that probably means the Swedes would need to claim some convenient colony. Not too many options. I think the Qing once offered to allow a Dutch colony on Taiwan since the area was troublesome, although they didn't accept. The Dutch have the advantage in the Ryukyu Islands and at Nagasaki. Hokkaido is lightly settled enough that a post there might be possible, but by that point you are probably near the Russian posts.
Basically, I could see the benefit. Russian furs would allow more goods to be bought, and trip times varied enough that a few extra months could be entirely worth it. I can't say anything about the Chinese response to Swedish activity in their northern cities though, and Swedish interactions with Japan and Korea are entirely up in the air. Might depend on how much the Chinese value Russian furs, or whether you want to give Sweden some luck when it comes to establishing such a trade.
Very interesting analysis and I’ll need some time to digest it fully.
It starts looking like an extra component related to the fur trade is a little bit artificial unless it is a separate operation. Which does not preclude it from being done by the same or similar company (the initial idea was to have a Swedish-Russian(-Danish ?) trade company.
As I understand, Korea at that time was “locked” and Japan opened in Nagasaki to the Dutch (could this be expanded?).
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As the Swedes never went further than Canton, I'm just reluctant to really make a judgement on how likely or beneficial it all would be. You're arguably more knowledgeable on just how valuable the Russian furs would be, and how much they'd be valued by the Chinese. As the Swedes didn't go further than Canton, there's just not much for me to make an definitive statements on.
However, the Swedes were able to send ships to Canton, actually matching the British in ships and beating them in tonnage in 1741. They also weren't overly hindered by bad trips taking ten months longer due to bad weather. So, I really don't think it beyond them to sail to the Russian Far East posts. It likely wouldn't be a separate operation, but likely a different route planned from the beginning. The shorter China route would go to Canton, and then return. The B-Plan would head to Russia. It would add months to the trip, they'd couldn't travel there in winter either, but could be worth it. If the Chinese would accept these furs instead of silver, Sweden could carry much different goods instead of silver. Cadiz could be avoided on the trip there. If Russia does have that much role in the Trading Company, there'd be little point for some ships not to travel there. Any ships in the area with extra cargo space would find furs every year there. It's not like other EIC's didn't have far more permanent operations than two year round trips. With Russia's eastern possessions incapable of building sufficient ships at this time, any ships that reach that area could basically focus on doing all the ship trade for the possessions there. Pretty damn consistent business, trade posts where they can retreat to available, etc. Some ships could operate for years between Russia, China, and potentially some place further south where they could meet and exchange goods with newly arriving Swedish ships.
Basically, I could see this theoretical company having three 'theaters' for trade. India, Danish focused, Sunda-Canton, Swedish focused, and Canton-East Russia. All cooperating and supporting each other. The latter would probably be a strongly mixed group, and probably the area where people are most consistently there. Ships working that region for years at a time, traveling to the other theaters to exchange goods elsewhere so they don't need to pile into Canton like every other European China traders. It's an advantage.
As for Korea and Japan. Once again, it's beyond me. This Canton-East Russia theater would be more likely be focused on getting a trade post/colony on Taiwan from the Qing or permission to resupply and trade with north Chinese cities to really take off. Once it is settled and they have a consistent presence, then could proper pressure be exerted to try and open Korea and Japan as markets. For Japan, I'd assume that trading indirectly with the Matsumae domain with the Ainu as a middleman would be more likely. Nagasaki is already involved with the Dutch and Chinese. Japan used the Ryukyu Kingdom as a sort of deniable intermediary. Japan didn't have much interest in Hokkaido at the time, so trade posts could be established there easier than 'in' Japan. It would also be closer to the Russian areas. That's largely just me working of basic information and assumptions though.
Sounds as a great schema.
As for the goods needed on the Russian Pacific coast, AFAIK, the term would be along the lines of the “survival kit”: the initial OTL settlements, from Okhotsk and all the way to Petropavlovsk (Kamchatka was/is big on furs) were to the North of the agricultural zone: Okhotsk had to be supplied from Yakutsk and the settlements to the North - by the sea from Okhotsk. To get a clear idea, the Russian Alaska had been supplied by food mostly from California and then by the British Hudson Bay Company.
So everything from grain (main staple of the Russian diet at that time) to the nails would be welcomed. OTOH, taking into an account a complete absence of the land roads, it would be probably cheaper and faster for the Russians to get Kamchatka furs by the sea to Canton (or, say, Shanghai) then sailing to Okhotsk and then carrying them by land to Kyakhta.
In OTL wharf of Okhotsk built a number of small ships (brigantines and packet boats being the biggest) but not the bigger ocean-going ones. So basically these ships could be sailing between Kamchatka and Okhotsk with Okhotsk being the far end for the commercial caravans. Moving the border South (especially if Amur is “open”) would decrease the supply problems and shorten the trips but probably still would make sense for Russian Kamchatka/Alaska fur trade.
Your opinion?
The outposts are even further North than I thought. Some colony on Hokkaido is even more likely, if only as a port for the ships to spend the winter at. Those Russian ones would much colder and icier.
As for the survival kit. Those aren't the goods often talked about in the EIC's, but that's only as rice or grains are far from the goods they wanted to trade in. The Company ships bringing cloth, iron (the nails included or other iron tools), lead, and other domestic goods of the Baltic mafia and buying rice, grain, and other parts of the 'survival kit' that should be freely available and otherwise not a focus of Europeans. No need for the hard silver. The hopeful trade posts/colonies in Taiwan and Hokkaido maybe being developed to supply such goods, although whether they would be successful or not is more questionable. The furs can then be traded for the goods the returning ships want.
Seems a rather nice little additional circle of trade added on at the very end of the traditional Canton route. One or two ships break off each convoy to work it till they join the next convoy, and are replaced by new ships. The number of ships and how long they actually operate depending on the volume of goods from the Russians. Likely growing over time, as the Russian posts do, colonies or trading posts are founded, and new markets potentially opened.
I don't find anything wrong with this, as much as we can say a new trade route can function. Good luck.
It is complicated…
74. It is complicated….
The Treaty of Kyakhta seemingly provided a mutually-accepted solution for both sides but this was true only if the primary interest on both side was trade. But was this really the case?
Probably it makes sense to start with a factual side.
Interlude:
The trade route followed the usual route to Irkutsk, by flatboat across Lake Baikal, and south by poling up the Selenge River past Selinginsk. Near the mouth of the Chikoy River at a place called Strelka or Petropavlovsk goods were loaded onto carts and carried south to Kyakhta where caravans were assembled or goods bartered. Much barter was done at Kyakhta during the winter and Chinese goods were shipped west when the rivers melted. Completion of the Siberian Trakt allowed to start replacing the Siberian rivers with overland route. When the ground was frozen solid this might take 70 or 80 days.
[Later in the century furs from Russian-America were sent via Okhotsk and Yakutsk to Kyakhta.]
From the border the route went south to Urga, southeast to Kalgan on the Great Wall and then Peking. The crossing of the Gobi took at least 30 to 40 days.
South of Kyakhta the trade route had three sections.
Exports Furs were 70-85% by value, with the percent tending to decline, especially as European-made goods increased. Squirrel was the largest by quantity, about 2-4 million pelts annually. Furs were followed by leather and hides, Russian and later foreign cloth and then miscellaneous goods.
Imports About 50-60% was cotton (it is not clear where this came from). Silk, both raw and processed was about a third. Tea imports started small but were steadily growing eventually reaching 40%. These were followed by tobacco and manufactured goods. An unknown part of the northbound trade was brought by "Bukharans" as the Russians called Central Asian traders. [1]
[OTL, just to give an idea of the state caravans [2]:
The whole Kyakhta trade was perhaps 7% of Russian foreign trade.
Pacific coast
The first Russian town on the Pacific coast. Okhotsk, was founded in 1649 as the winter quarters by the Cossacks. fOn May 10, 1720, Okhotsk (Okhotsk Ostrog) received the status of a port city.
Since the beginning of the XVIII century, Okhotsk has been the starting point of sea expeditions that explored the northern Pacific Ocean and discovered the west coast of Russian America. The Okhotsk Flotilla was established to protect the areas of the Pacific Ocean discovered by Russian explorers and sailors. In 1721 Peter issued ukaz "to teach young Cossack children to sea” to provide the local cadres for the seafaring expeditions.
In 1713, Peter signed a decree on the search for the sea route to Kamchatka. Soon, immigrants from Arkhangelsk, experienced sailors Kondraty Moshkov, Nikephoros Tresku, Ivan Butin, feeder Jacob Neveitsin, as well as shipbuilders Kirill Ploskikh (Plotnitsky), Ivan Kargopol (Kargopoltsev) and Bartholomew Fedorov were sent to Okhotsk. The head of the new expedition, the Yakut Cossack Kozma Sokolov, was instructed "by the Lama Sea ... to build seagoing ships with those sent carpenters ... with those sailors and carpenters and with service people to go through the Lama Sea to the Kamchatka Nose without any delay."
Sailors arrived in Yakutsk on May 23, 1714 and went to Okhotsk Ostrog on July 3. In 75 versts upstream of the Kukhtuy River, near Okhotsk, the detachment laid a wharf called Sokolovsky. By May 1716, the first ship of the boat "Vostok" (also known as "Hunting" and "Great Lama Sea") had been built there, which became the first Russian military ship in the Pacific Ocean. From July 1716 to May 1717, this boat as part of the Cossack expedition sailed to the Bolsheretsky Ostrog, the then capital of Kamchatka, and back. On the same boat "Vostok", in 1720-1721, officers of the Russian fleet, surveyors I. Min. Evreinov and F. F. Luzhin made an expedition to study the Kamchatka coast and the Kuril Islands.
According to the decrees of Peter I of 1716 and 1719, new expeditions were appointed, which were instructed to "... explore Kamchatka, ... to build fortresses and start bargaining with the surrounding inhabitants; to equip expeditions to the shores of the seas of the North and East and along the rivers ... to pass through unknown lands lying opposite the mouth To solve the problems of the expeditions, new vessels were built in Okhotsk with a resulting creation of the “Olhotsk military flotilla”: “Four or six vessels to make, for a routine travel to Kamchatka and other places for service people and merchants”.
Two biggest ships built on the wharf were the 14-gun packet boats but also a brigantine, a galiot and few small ships.
The town itself was not too big. It had: Church of the Transfiguration of the Lord, administrative building, office, barracks, 3 workshops, 5 barns, 40 houses, 5 shops, and in the adjacent expeditionary settlement: 5 barracks, 6 shops, 1 forge and 33 houses. All supplies had to come from outside: 4-6 thousand horses with food and equipment were annually transported from Yakutsk to Okhotsk using Okhotsky Trakt.
Supply of the settlements to the North could be done from Okhotsk exclusively by the sea, which was restricting their potential growth. The same goes for the trade aspect: the furs from Kamchatka had to be brought by the sea to Okhotsk, then from Okhotsk by Okhotsky trakt to Yakutsk and from here by land to Kyakhta.
Obviously, if Peter wanted further development of the area, there was a need for a better located main base, located in the area allowing the agriculture and having a reasonably convenient connection with the “settled” area of the Eastern Siberia.
Siberia
Which means that the whole Kyakhta Treaty, including the border, started looking rather inconvenient soon after it had been made. But to change the status quo in his favor Peter needed (a) to strengthen the Russian position in a region and (b) to weaken Qing’s position.
Implementation of the first part of the task already started by arranging resettlement of the state peasants and encouraging the voluntary settlement in Baikal and Trans-Baikal region (all the way to pardoning the criminals and promising no-return to the escaping serfs). There was also build up of manufacturing in Kuznetsk where Kolyvan-Voskresensky copper plant began functioning in 1718.
The second part was more complicated because it involved contradicting Qing-Dzungar-Russian interests with a possibility to get involved various independent and semi-independent local tribes like Yenisei Kyrgyz (which were more or less under Dzungar control) or Khalka Mongols (who were the Chinese vassals but mostly because they did not like Dzungars).
Geographically, Kuznetsk was on a border line of this messy area. In 1700. Kuznetsk was first surrounded by Kyrgyz and Oirat, who stormed the entire gates of the city. The residents made three counterattacks. Without waiting for the approach of additional forces, the nomads withdrew. The border sparsely populated and poor Kuznetsky Uyezd suffered catastrophic human and material losses. Peter personally ordered to send weapons here, including medium-caliber artillery guns. On his initiative, military offensive campaigns of Tomsk residents, Kuznetsk and Krasnoyarsk residents against the Kyrgyz were organized in 1701-1704. In 1707, Kuznetsk residents participated in the construction of the Abakan fortress. In 1709, they built the first Bikatunsky fortress, which was destroyed by the Dzungars a year later. In 1709-1710. Kuznetsk is again attacked by a large Dzungarian army, which failed to cross Tom near the village of Ilyinsky. In 1714-1715, there was a real danger of destroying Kuznetsk at the hands of thousands of troops of the Dzungarian taisha Tseren-Donduk. However, he withdrew his troops to Irtysh, where on Lake Yamyshev during the winter siege of 1715-1716, the three thousandth expeditionary corps of Lieutenant Colonel Buholz was destroyed. As a result, Peter ordered construction of a strong Kuznetsk Fortress, which became the most formidable fortified place in the region.
So the Dzungars obviously were a hostile force but, taking into an account that they had been hostile to the Qing as well, could they be used to advance the Russian goals in the region? Could the Khalka Mongols be persuaded to change their loyalty as well?
___________
[1] Self-designation: Bukharlyk, Sart. “Are ethnographic and sociocultural group in Siberia. They constituted a significant part of the Tobol-Irtysh and Tom groups of Siberian Tatars”. Russians formerly used the term "Bukharan" to refer to any caravan merchant from Central Asia, since the Russians did not always have a clear understanding of the geography and peoples further south. Since Muslim Siberian Bukharans had legal advantages and privileges under Russia, Siberian Tatars pretended to be them.
[2] In the Russian version of Wiki the dates and the numbers are substantially different and I have no idea which of them are correct. However, AFAIK, the profit margin tended to be low and some of the caravans lost money. Probably the open border trade in Kyakhta itself, with the custom dues around 20% should produce more state profit with much less effort. Anyway, 7% of the foreign trade looks peanuts.
“For the whims of one person the whole Siberia is not big enough.”
Fonvizin
“Our whims are much more bizarre than the whims of fate”
François VI, Duc de La Rochefoucauld
“The Siberian tract is the largest and, it seems, the most ugly road in the whole world.”
Chekhov
“- Did he just call you a bunny?
- It is complicated”
Red (movie, 2010)
Kyakhta tradeFonvizin
“Our whims are much more bizarre than the whims of fate”
François VI, Duc de La Rochefoucauld
“The Siberian tract is the largest and, it seems, the most ugly road in the whole world.”
Chekhov
“- Did he just call you a bunny?
- It is complicated”
Red (movie, 2010)
The Treaty of Kyakhta seemingly provided a mutually-accepted solution for both sides but this was true only if the primary interest on both side was trade. But was this really the case?
Probably it makes sense to start with a factual side.
Interlude:
The trade route followed the usual route to Irkutsk, by flatboat across Lake Baikal, and south by poling up the Selenge River past Selinginsk. Near the mouth of the Chikoy River at a place called Strelka or Petropavlovsk goods were loaded onto carts and carried south to Kyakhta where caravans were assembled or goods bartered. Much barter was done at Kyakhta during the winter and Chinese goods were shipped west when the rivers melted. Completion of the Siberian Trakt allowed to start replacing the Siberian rivers with overland route. When the ground was frozen solid this might take 70 or 80 days.
[Later in the century furs from Russian-America were sent via Okhotsk and Yakutsk to Kyakhta.]
From the border the route went south to Urga, southeast to Kalgan on the Great Wall and then Peking. The crossing of the Gobi took at least 30 to 40 days.
South of Kyakhta the trade route had three sections.
- 170 miles south to Urga. Here carts could be used. The land had more rain, grass, people, hills and rivers than further south.
- 625 miles southeast to Kalgan by camel caravan across the Gobi Desert. This took about 30 days. Ox carts were used for heavy loads. Horses were used for speed and to supervise the caravans.
- 100 miles southeast from Kalgan to Peking over the mountains west of Peking. This took about four days and used mules because of a difficult pass, probably to Juyong Pass.
Exports Furs were 70-85% by value, with the percent tending to decline, especially as European-made goods increased. Squirrel was the largest by quantity, about 2-4 million pelts annually. Furs were followed by leather and hides, Russian and later foreign cloth and then miscellaneous goods.
Imports About 50-60% was cotton (it is not clear where this came from). Silk, both raw and processed was about a third. Tea imports started small but were steadily growing eventually reaching 40%. These were followed by tobacco and manufactured goods. An unknown part of the northbound trade was brought by "Bukharans" as the Russians called Central Asian traders. [1]
[OTL, just to give an idea of the state caravans [2]:
- 1727: Molokov, Lorenz Lange as diplomat: Outbound Sep-Dec 1727, stayed in Peking 6 months, returned Jul-Sep 1728. They set out with 205 men, 1,650 horses, 475 goods carts, 162 provision carts and 665 cattle for food. They had 285,404 rubles in goods including 2,100,000 pelts. Between Selenginsk and Kalgan they lost 489 horses and 258 cattle. At Kalgan they left their extra horses to be picked up on the way back. In Peking they stayed at the Russian House or O-lu-ssu Kuan. Numerous 'guards' soon appeared. Trade went slowly and the Russians blamed the Chinese officials. Before leaving Lange had an audience with the Emperor. They returned with 125,000 yards of silk, 570,000 yards of cotton, 30,000 pounds of tea (much less than later), 65,000 rubles in gold and silver and 404,000 unsold pelts. In 1731-33 excess goods were bartered at the border for about 125,000 rubles at Moscow prices. 335,301 rubles of Chinese goods were brought to Moscow for sale, some remaining unsold until 1735. Cost of caravan estimated at 62,687 rubles.
- 1731: Molokov+Lange: Nov '31-Mar '32, returned Sep '32-Sep '33. 113 men, about 100,000 rubles in goods and 140,000 in coin. They returned with 214,699 rubles of Chinese goods at Moscow prices. Lange had another audience with the Emperor. Outbound, to avoid the Gobi desert, they followed the Kerulen River where they were robbed. They returned north to Tsurukaitu and were again robbed. The bandits were captured and the Manchus sent the heads of nine bandits to Kyakhta as a token of good will. The journey from Peking to Tsurukaitu lasted from Sep '32 to Apr '33. At Tsurukaitu they had difficulty finding storage space and laborers. It took them all summer to travel west to Irkutsk. This route was not used again.
The whole Kyakhta trade was perhaps 7% of Russian foreign trade.
Pacific coast
The first Russian town on the Pacific coast. Okhotsk, was founded in 1649 as the winter quarters by the Cossacks. fOn May 10, 1720, Okhotsk (Okhotsk Ostrog) received the status of a port city.
Since the beginning of the XVIII century, Okhotsk has been the starting point of sea expeditions that explored the northern Pacific Ocean and discovered the west coast of Russian America. The Okhotsk Flotilla was established to protect the areas of the Pacific Ocean discovered by Russian explorers and sailors. In 1721 Peter issued ukaz "to teach young Cossack children to sea” to provide the local cadres for the seafaring expeditions.
In 1713, Peter signed a decree on the search for the sea route to Kamchatka. Soon, immigrants from Arkhangelsk, experienced sailors Kondraty Moshkov, Nikephoros Tresku, Ivan Butin, feeder Jacob Neveitsin, as well as shipbuilders Kirill Ploskikh (Plotnitsky), Ivan Kargopol (Kargopoltsev) and Bartholomew Fedorov were sent to Okhotsk. The head of the new expedition, the Yakut Cossack Kozma Sokolov, was instructed "by the Lama Sea ... to build seagoing ships with those sent carpenters ... with those sailors and carpenters and with service people to go through the Lama Sea to the Kamchatka Nose without any delay."
Sailors arrived in Yakutsk on May 23, 1714 and went to Okhotsk Ostrog on July 3. In 75 versts upstream of the Kukhtuy River, near Okhotsk, the detachment laid a wharf called Sokolovsky. By May 1716, the first ship of the boat "Vostok" (also known as "Hunting" and "Great Lama Sea") had been built there, which became the first Russian military ship in the Pacific Ocean. From July 1716 to May 1717, this boat as part of the Cossack expedition sailed to the Bolsheretsky Ostrog, the then capital of Kamchatka, and back. On the same boat "Vostok", in 1720-1721, officers of the Russian fleet, surveyors I. Min. Evreinov and F. F. Luzhin made an expedition to study the Kamchatka coast and the Kuril Islands.
According to the decrees of Peter I of 1716 and 1719, new expeditions were appointed, which were instructed to "... explore Kamchatka, ... to build fortresses and start bargaining with the surrounding inhabitants; to equip expeditions to the shores of the seas of the North and East and along the rivers ... to pass through unknown lands lying opposite the mouth To solve the problems of the expeditions, new vessels were built in Okhotsk with a resulting creation of the “Olhotsk military flotilla”: “Four or six vessels to make, for a routine travel to Kamchatka and other places for service people and merchants”.
Two biggest ships built on the wharf were the 14-gun packet boats but also a brigantine, a galiot and few small ships.
The town itself was not too big. It had: Church of the Transfiguration of the Lord, administrative building, office, barracks, 3 workshops, 5 barns, 40 houses, 5 shops, and in the adjacent expeditionary settlement: 5 barracks, 6 shops, 1 forge and 33 houses. All supplies had to come from outside: 4-6 thousand horses with food and equipment were annually transported from Yakutsk to Okhotsk using Okhotsky Trakt.
Supply of the settlements to the North could be done from Okhotsk exclusively by the sea, which was restricting their potential growth. The same goes for the trade aspect: the furs from Kamchatka had to be brought by the sea to Okhotsk, then from Okhotsk by Okhotsky trakt to Yakutsk and from here by land to Kyakhta.
Obviously, if Peter wanted further development of the area, there was a need for a better located main base, located in the area allowing the agriculture and having a reasonably convenient connection with the “settled” area of the Eastern Siberia.
Siberia
Which means that the whole Kyakhta Treaty, including the border, started looking rather inconvenient soon after it had been made. But to change the status quo in his favor Peter needed (a) to strengthen the Russian position in a region and (b) to weaken Qing’s position.
Implementation of the first part of the task already started by arranging resettlement of the state peasants and encouraging the voluntary settlement in Baikal and Trans-Baikal region (all the way to pardoning the criminals and promising no-return to the escaping serfs). There was also build up of manufacturing in Kuznetsk where Kolyvan-Voskresensky copper plant began functioning in 1718.
The second part was more complicated because it involved contradicting Qing-Dzungar-Russian interests with a possibility to get involved various independent and semi-independent local tribes like Yenisei Kyrgyz (which were more or less under Dzungar control) or Khalka Mongols (who were the Chinese vassals but mostly because they did not like Dzungars).
Geographically, Kuznetsk was on a border line of this messy area. In 1700. Kuznetsk was first surrounded by Kyrgyz and Oirat, who stormed the entire gates of the city. The residents made three counterattacks. Without waiting for the approach of additional forces, the nomads withdrew. The border sparsely populated and poor Kuznetsky Uyezd suffered catastrophic human and material losses. Peter personally ordered to send weapons here, including medium-caliber artillery guns. On his initiative, military offensive campaigns of Tomsk residents, Kuznetsk and Krasnoyarsk residents against the Kyrgyz were organized in 1701-1704. In 1707, Kuznetsk residents participated in the construction of the Abakan fortress. In 1709, they built the first Bikatunsky fortress, which was destroyed by the Dzungars a year later. In 1709-1710. Kuznetsk is again attacked by a large Dzungarian army, which failed to cross Tom near the village of Ilyinsky. In 1714-1715, there was a real danger of destroying Kuznetsk at the hands of thousands of troops of the Dzungarian taisha Tseren-Donduk. However, he withdrew his troops to Irtysh, where on Lake Yamyshev during the winter siege of 1715-1716, the three thousandth expeditionary corps of Lieutenant Colonel Buholz was destroyed. As a result, Peter ordered construction of a strong Kuznetsk Fortress, which became the most formidable fortified place in the region.
So the Dzungars obviously were a hostile force but, taking into an account that they had been hostile to the Qing as well, could they be used to advance the Russian goals in the region? Could the Khalka Mongols be persuaded to change their loyalty as well?
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[1] Self-designation: Bukharlyk, Sart. “Are ethnographic and sociocultural group in Siberia. They constituted a significant part of the Tobol-Irtysh and Tom groups of Siberian Tatars”. Russians formerly used the term "Bukharan" to refer to any caravan merchant from Central Asia, since the Russians did not always have a clear understanding of the geography and peoples further south. Since Muslim Siberian Bukharans had legal advantages and privileges under Russia, Siberian Tatars pretended to be them.
[2] In the Russian version of Wiki the dates and the numbers are substantially different and I have no idea which of them are correct. However, AFAIK, the profit margin tended to be low and some of the caravans lost money. Probably the open border trade in Kyakhta itself, with the custom dues around 20% should produce more state profit with much less effort. Anyway, 7% of the foreign trade looks peanuts.