No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)

The war keeps going….
53. The Big Foolish War keeps going…

«капитан 1-го ранга - должен самостоятельно находить то место в бумагах, где ему необходимо расписаться;
- адмиралы - должны самостоятельно расписываться там, где им укажут; Министр Обороны - должен уметь в достаточно понятной форме высказать то, что от него хочет услышать Верховный Главнокомандующий; Верховный Главнокомандующий (президент) - должен периодически … интересоваться тем, какая же в данный момент армия находиться на территории его государства. Если выяснится, что своя, то постараться выплатить ей жалование за последние годы и пообещать его повысить (потом)» [1]
From the List of Military Duties

“If plan A doesn’t work, the alphabet has 25 more letters – 204 if you’re in Japan.”
Claire Cook

“God is on the side with the best artillery”

Napoleon

«Это невооруженного солдата надо кормить, а вооруженный солдат сам себя прокормит»
«Каин 18» [2]
The naval affairsj
After the Battle of Helsinborg, admiral general Wachtmeister, who so far completely overlooked the Danish landing in Scania, finally decided to act. Without bothering to inform the rear-admiral Senyavin, who had been staying with his squadron at Stockholm, on July 21 he sailed from Karlskrona with 21 ship of the line, 6 frigates and few small ships toward the Køge Bay where admiral Ulrik Christian Gyldenløve with the Danish fleet of 26 ships of the line and 5 frigates was waiting for the troops being loaded on 40 transport ships to sail toward Stralsund, which the Danish army was presently besieging.
1643651714511.jpeg

Gyldenløve knew about the planned expedition but did not took any precautions so when on August 4 the Swedish fleet appeared at the bay, the Danes had been taken completely by surprise and just had a time to form a line and Wachtmeister was able to cut them way to the Sound. At 2PM his flagship and the ships following him opened fire at the Danish “Dannebroge”, which soon was on fire [3] but his commander heroically placed the burning ship between two lines to prevent other Danish ships from catching the fire. around 4PM the ship exploded with only 3 members of the crew being saved.
1643664305151.jpeg


The battle ended at that point but two Swedish ships of the line, “Princess Ulrika” (84 guns) and “Tre Lronor” (96 guns) run aground and had to be burned after the crews were evacuated. The empty transport ships had been captured. On August 7 Wachtmeister sailed back considering his mission accomplished: reinforcement of the troops besieging Stralsund had been delayed. Of course, performance on the both sides was anything but impressive and the Swedish captains definitely could have a better knowledge of the Koge Bay but Wachtmeister got enough credit to convince Charles to send the Russian squadron back home arguing that feeding its crews is just an absolutely unnecessary waste of money. Senyavin sailed to Koenigsberg which now was used as the Russian army and navy operational base.

Gyldenløve, of course, claimed encounter to be a Danish victory: two Swedish ships of the line lost vs. one Danish and who cares about the transports? The new ones can be obtained or the siege of Stralsund can be strengthened by the troops presently in Holstein, which could be replaced by those not sailing from Denmark.

In other words, each side ended up with its own hero (the Danes - with two, counting a heroic captain of “Dannebroge”).

The land affairs …..
Prussian-Danish invasion of the Swedish Pomerania started in the early June and in the early July sieges of Stralsund (by the Danish-Prussian forces) and Stettin (Prussians) were in their initial stages, with Frederick I “in Prussia” contemplating to send his troops in Prussia an order to attack Elbing, when he received the news that his newly-declared kingdom is being attacked. Fieldmarshal von Lehvaldt had been sending the desperate reports that with a meager force in his disposal he simply can’t do anything to stop the huge numbers of the enemy. The alleged numbers varied in a rather wild range and it was not even clear if the kingdom was invaded by the Swedes and Russians or by the Russians only. Fortunately, soon enough it became clear that King Charles is still in Sweden and that the Swedes are present only in the very small numbers, which meant that situation should be remedied with a relative ease. 20,000 troops had been sent to join Lehwaldt and to kick the barbarians out. The Prussian troops marched straight through the Pomorskie Voyevodstwo, crossed Vistula at Dirschan and entered the Kingdom of Prussia to find out that, except for Oberland, it is already being lost and that the Prussian force there dwindled to 5,000. However, having now in his disposal 25,000 (most of whom had been the veterans of the WoSS) and 55 artillery pieces , von Lehvaldt was ready to turn the tables. His plan was to retake Koenigsberg, defeating Russians on the way, and from here to find whereabouts of the rest of the Russians (who surely would spread their troops to garrison the area) and then keep defeating them piecemeal before they manage to concentrate their forces.

He marched across territory of the Bishopric of Ermeland and then proceeded to the North toward Koenigsberg meeting only the small parties of the Russian regular and irregular cavalry. They were seemingly scared of the advancing Prussians and rather reluctant even to get engaged in the skirmishes. So far everything worked according to the plan and he was getting closer to his target. It started looking like the enemy is too scared and going to evacuate Prussia without putting a fight.

However, after crossing the river Pasmar at Creutzburg [4], he found himself facing more than 50,000 Russians [5] and more enemy appearing at his rear from the forest behind the town.
1643670309626.png

In the best Prussian tradition, von Lehvaldt ordered an attack disregarding the odds but very soon a huge numeric advantage of the Russian artillery resulted in the terrible losses before Prussian infantry managed to get anywhere close to the Russian position. The cavalry launched a desperate charge to find two lines of the infantry battalions in squares with the artillery in intervals and to be taken at the flank by the Russian heavy cavalry. After it retreated in a disarray, attack of the Russian infantry in the battalion columns finished the battle: Prussian infantry was very good in maintaining a fast rate of fire (which, after the devastating artillery barrage became rather sporadic) but not in its precision and was not prepared at all to the bayonet charges. Detachments of the regular and irregular cavalry and few artillery pieces appearing on the Southern bank of the Pasmar made an orderly retreat impossible.

Some of the Prussian cavalry and infantry managed to get away but most of the army with all its artillery had been either dead or taken prisoners. Lehvaldt was among the dead, killed when trying to rally his troops.

Sheremetev ordered Golitsin’s corps to advance to the Polish border and watch the situation but most of his army remained to the north of the Bishopric because the supply situation still was rather complicated: he had to rely upon a combination of what can be collected in Prussia, bought in Lithuania and transported by the sea from the Swedish Livonia and St. Petersburg. If the circumstances dictate him to advance to the Pomerania or Brandenburg, the supply line may become too stretched with a resulting need to have an agreement with Danzig (always problematic) or to march without stopping anywhere all the way to Stettin (providing it is still Swedish). His instructions were not going beyond Prussia so now he had to wait for the further ones and in a meantime to keep his army well-supplied and in a good order.


__________________
[1] Captain of the 1st rank should be able without anybody’s help to find a place in a paper where he must put his signature; the admirals must be able to put a signature at the place pointed to them; Minister of War must be able to say, in a comprehensive way, what the Supreme Commander wants to hear from him. The Supreme Commander (head of the state) must periodically inquire which army at this moment is located on his state’s territory. If it is his own army, he should try to pay it a salary for the last few years and promise to raise it (in a future).
[2] You have to feed an unarmed soldier because the armed one will feed himself. “Cain XVIII” (the movie)
[3] Gyldenløve reported that the ship was probably ignited by her own cannons.
[4] One more (seemingly typical) confusing pictures: the town id depicted as being seen disregarding North and South. Actually, the city is on the Southern bank so the North is toward the viewer.
[5] Most of the Sheremetev’s army and Fermor’s corps with 270 artillery pieces and cavalry of Golitsin’s corps approaching from the South to cut off the retreat.
 
Loving the time line and really enjoying the epigraphs. I offer this one from a modern day collection of short stories about the Soviet navy: "If you're going to feed your army well, why keep one at all?"
 
Good doggy. I see Peters presence still haunts Russian troops.
Not at all but the war is a political thing at least as much as it is military and only Peter may define up to which degree “the brotherly help” should extend: after all, he is not getting any territorial gains from the ongoing operations.

Then, keep in mind that in OTL war in that area had been extremely costly affair in the terms of logistics and non-fighting losses. In OTL campaigns in Pomerania during the GNW and in East Prussia during the 7YW had been extremely complicated logistically. Conquest of EP, which in this TL looks like an easy military walk took two years due to the logistical problems and after the 1st (military successful) campaign the Russian army had to leave an area in an absolutely disastrous condition and it took Fermor months of a dedicated effort to bring it back to the fighting shape and compensate for the losses of people and horses. The second campaign faced a minimal military opposition but creation of the magazines for campaign in Pomerania/Brandenburg required a huge effort.

So here the Russians are getting a fast and not fully expected success in a clearly defined stage of a war. Mission is accomplished and the second stage depends upon the partner’s activities. Will Charles need Russian help in Germany or not? So far the naval help was rejected and the Danes had been successfully kicked out of Scania so perhaps Charles wants to proceed on his own and if not, the plans had to be coordinated. If the Russian participation continues, where the army should go?

There are also the diplomatic issues related to the PLC (with Danzig being a separate issue) and Saxony.

Sheremetev is a general, not a person allowed to make his own political decisions. Most that he can do is to keep his army in shape for the future actions scope of which is going to be decided by the monarchs.
 
Not at all but the war is a political thing at least as much as it is military and only Peter may define up to which degree “the brotherly help” should extend: after all, he is not getting any territorial gains from the ongoing operations.

I thought he will get some prussian territories and exchange them for Podolskie area in PLC? on Map from Hastings .
1643412317296.png


But yea i generally i agree with everything else , securing that troops are well supplied is important.
 
Last edited:
I thought he will get some prussian territories and exchange them for Podolskie area in PLC?


Peter is not necessarily aware of our collective plans for the post-war borders because they are not stated as an official purpose of the war. 😂

Formally, he is engaged in a selfless task of helping Charles to maintain the regional status quo. Unlike OTL 7YW, East Prussia is not ordered to swear a loyalty oath to him and it is not clear, yet, how the things are going to develop. It is not that he has any real interest either in EP or Podolia (why not a piece of Belorussia, for example, or nothing at all, just money, influence and prestige?) and there is no agreement of any kind with the PLC on this account even if just because Peter does not want any extra commitments which may end up being inconvenient.

So far, the whole commitment is, to use a modern terminology, “a limited contingent” (less than a third of his regular army) is being sent to help Charles to secure his Northern flank on the Eastern Baltic coast and to get some additional experience in the “European” warfare. It was successful somewhat beyond the expectations but that’s it. He can deliver it to Lewenhaupt (governor of the Baltic Provinces) and quit with an absolutely clear consciousness and no reason for Charles to be angry, especially after Wachtmeister made a huge diplomatic gaffe by excluding the Russian squadron from the Swedish naval activities and insisting on its removal, which was approved by Charles (without any intention to offend, just because he was too busy with other issues to give a matter proper consideration).

So don’t jump over the intermediate steps right to the “glorious conclusion” of the Big Foolish War. 😉
 
It is not that he has any real interest either in EP or Podolia (why not a piece of Belorussia, for example, or nothing at all, just money, influence and prestige?) and there is no agreement of any kind with the PLC on this account even if just because Peter does not want any extra commitments which may end up being inconvenient.

Well, to play the devil's advocate, Peter has interests in Podolia. By virtue of geography, Podolia can easily export its agricultural produce via the Southern Bug down to Nikolayev. After all, it was a navigable river from late April to early December. If Podolia was added to Ukraine, with no tariff barriers between them, it would promote synergies that would support the economic development of the whole region. It seems to me that it would be the continuation of the same policy.

Granted, there is no economic reason for Peter to want more belarussian swamps and forests.

A monetary compensation would have been a very sensible thing. But how? Prussia has just been ravaged by the plague and it wouldn't be possible to get a nice sum right away. The only reasonable way for monetary compensation would have been to control Konigsberg's custom house for a number of years. However, it seems that it had been the swedish policy as well. Especially if the Swedes turn Pillau as a second Elbling (a very sensible and low-cost policy) then he would clash with "dear brother" Charles as they will try to milk the same cow.

A switch of the Podolia Voivedoship with a piece of East Prussia would be beneficial for Poland and its magnates. Agricultural land next to the Vistula would be more important to them than Podolia that cannot export grains the same way as most of Poland. Podolian exports would be subject to foreign (russian) tariffs. The fact that a foreign power (Brandenburg) would lose access to the river that controls 85% of polish trade would be beneficial as well, After all, this is how the magnates get their coin, french tapestries, rhenish wines and english sugar and tobacco.
 
Well, to play the devil's advocate, Peter has interests in Podolia. By virtue of geography, Podolia can easily export its agricultural produce via the Southern Bug down to Nikolayev. After all, it was a navigable river from late April to early December. If Podolia was added to Ukraine, with no tariff barriers between them, it would promote synergies that would support the economic development of the whole region. It seems to me that it would be the continuation of the same policy.

Granted, there is no economic reason for Peter to want more belarussian swamps and forests.

A monetary compensation would have been a very sensible thing. But how? Prussia has just been ravaged by the plague and it wouldn't be possible to get a nice sum right away. The only reasonable way for monetary compensation would have been to control Konigsberg's custom house for a number of years. However, it seems that it had been the swedish policy as well. Especially if the Swedes turn Pillau as a second Elbling (a very sensible and low-cost policy) then he would clash with "dear brother" Charles as they will try to milk the same cow.

A switch of the Podolia Voivedoship with a piece of East Prussia would be beneficial for Poland and its magnates. Agricultural land next to the Vistula would be more important to them than Podolia that cannot export grains the same way as most of Poland. Podolian exports would be subject to foreign (russian) tariffs. The fact that a foreign power (Brandenburg) would lose access to the river that controls 85% of polish trade would be beneficial as well, After all, this is how the magnates get their coin, french tapestries, rhenish wines and english sugar and tobacco.

I think that no one is really disputing that, Peter probably knows if not all then at least some of those things himself, it's just that for now conditions for the territorial exchange aren't meet.

From Peters perspective he is in the war officially to help his dear brother Charles and is in it unofficially to obtain free passage through the Danish straits if possible, maybe some cash and that's really it, that are set goals.

But otherwise he doesn't really have big interest in Prussian territories and as it was said before there is no agreement with Poland about possible territorial exchange and no agreement with Sweden about territorial acquisitions. Yea Peter can insist on taking some land on his own to exchange it later, but I believe that for him it's far more important to maintain good relationship with dear brother Charles for support regarding the Danish strait's and maintain Swedish support regarding the status quo in PLC ( territorial exchange behind Charles back could potentially be a reason for break up in relations which simply isn't worth it).

Of course once Augustus under his capacity as elector of Saxony joins the war he and Peter will be able to raise the matter officially, plus Swedish position on post war treaty and level of Prussian/Danish/Hanoverian defeat will make things even easier.

But for now Peter is content with good start of the war and is waiting to see how things develop further while preparing for better, or for worse .
 
Last edited:

kham_coc

Banned
Of course once Augustus under his capacity as elector of Saxony joins the war he and Peter will be able to raise the matter officially, plus Swedish position on post war treaty and level of Prussian/Danish/Hanoverian defeat will make things even easier.
Would they want that? - That would complicate and lengthen the war.
 
Would they want that? - That would complicate and lengthen the war.

Once again it all depends on how stubborn triple alliance is, how good/or bad war is progressing and to which length is Charles willing to go to punish his enemies. Yes it would prolong the war, but such a peace would at least guarantee that Prussia wouldn't be able to cause any future trouble.

Not to mention if Saxony joins it would turn the odds even more in Swedish/Russian favor and actually give them logistics needed to go further in Brandenburg. Generally i believe that everyone have a goal in this war without which they won't go out , in Charles case he will want to punish his enemies and neutralize the threat for some time ( i fully expect guarantee that Denmark won't attack again for certain time period to be included in peace alongside reparations and territorial concessions in Honelstein, maybe Norway as well) , while Peter will at least unofficially want open straits, or something similar that he would probably be willing to sacrifice reparations from Denmark for it.
 
Last edited:

kham_coc

Banned
Once again it all depends on how stubborn triple alliance is, how good/or bad war is progressing and to which length is Charles willing to go to punish his enemies. Yes it would prolong the war, but such a peace would at least guarantee that Prussia wouldn't be able to cause any future trouble.
I suppose there is also the option of having saxony attack prussia, and then not get anything for it - It's not like Augustus has a lot of favour with Peter and Charles.
 
I suppose there is also the option of having saxony attack prussia, and then not get anything for it - It's not like Augustus has a lot of favour with Peter and Charles.

I mean yea that is the option, but I believe they would want to set the precedent for obedience to be rewarded. Also most territories he is planned to get would go to Russia and be replaced with PLC for Poldolia, otherwise Russia really doesn't have the use for those lands.

I believe August would get some territories bordering PLC and Lithuania, otherwise he won't be getting much.
 

kham_coc

Banned
I mean yea that is the option, but I believe they would want to set the precedent for obedience to be rewarded. Also most territories he is planned to get would go to Russia and be replaced with PLC for Poldolia, otherwise Russia really doesn't have the use for those lands.

I believe August would get some territories bordering PLC and Lithuania, otherwise he won't be getting much.
I suppose he would be mildly happy with making the PLC happy, he can after all take the credit for it.
 
Well, to play the devil's advocate, Peter has interests in Podolia. By virtue of geography, Podolia can easily export its agricultural produce via the Southern Bug down to Nikolayev. After all, it was a navigable river from late April to early December. If Podolia was added to Ukraine, with no tariff barriers between them, it would promote synergies that would support the economic development of the whole region. It seems to me that it would be the continuation of the same policy.
At that time Peter’s main interest is in making the whole “Novorossia project” working. Podolia as an intended target does not worth a major war and all these considerations regarding economic development are a little bit too much on a modern side: Peter’s main source of income os a head-based tax and the custom dues represent a relatively small part of a budget. The Black Sea trade is at its beginning and the list of the clients (with a possible exception of the Ottomans) and their needs is yet to be defined.

He may end up getting Podolia or something else just to demonstrate the tangible gains from what otherwise is a pure cabinet war.

Granted, there is no economic reason for Peter to want more belarussian swamps and forests.

See above: his main source of income is based upon a number of the subjects, not their wealth. But I did not say that it would be worth of a war either.

A monetary compensation would have been a very sensible thing. But how? Prussia has just been ravaged by the plague and it wouldn't be possible to get a nice sum right away. The only reasonable way for monetary compensation would have been to control Konigsberg's custom house for a number of years. However, it seems that it had been the swedish policy as well. Especially if the Swedes turn Pillau as a second Elbling (a very sensible and low-cost policy) then he would clash with "dear brother" Charles as they will try to milk the same cow.

I’m afraid that you have a little bit idealistic view on a contemporary warfare. To start with, plague or not, Prussia is still a reasonably rich area (AFAIK, the plague does not make coins to disappear) and can be thoroughly milked out of considerable sums of money while the Russian troops are still there. Look at the sums which the Swedes extracted from the relatively poor Lithuania and Poland during the GNW while the plague was still going on. Then, Prussia is only a small part of the Hohenzollern’s state and how the King/Elector is going to get the needed amounts of money and/or valuables is his problem, not Peter’s.

Not sure that Pilau can be turned into second anything because so far it is pretty much just a fortress controlling access to the Vistula Lagoon. It got the town privileges only in 1725 and it grew to some importance only with the appearance of the big ships, which could not enter the shallow Lagoon and dwindled after construction of a canal in 1901.
A switch of the Podolia Voivedoship with a piece of East Prussia would be beneficial for Poland and its magnates. Agricultural land next to the Vistula would be more important to them than Podolia that cannot export grains the same way as most of Poland.
Which magnates exactly are going to get lands in a new area? It has plenty of its own nobility which is going to retain their lands. The same goes for Podolia: only those who own estates there have some vested interest. So this is not an argument which makes practical sense in the PLC of 1700s.

The switch still may happen but not based on these considerations.



Podolian exports would be subject to foreign (russian) tariffs. The fact that a foreign power (Brandenburg) would lose access to the river that controls 85% of polish trade would be beneficial as well, After all, this is how the magnates get their coin, french tapestries, rhenish wines and english sugar and tobacco.
AFAIK, this was not how things worked. The nobles could not get involved in trade so they were selling their products to the merchants (and getting money to buy the goodies) and the merchants had been transporting them to the selling points of which Danzig was the biggest one (for Poland). Taking into the account that the Lithuanian nobility was OK with their goods being sold through the Swedish- and then Russian-held Riga , it does not look like the foreign states had been hitting their incomes to a noticeable degree and it is not a fact that, without them being a factor, the merchants would be paying more for the source products.

So the whole thing is mostly a matter of a national prestige.
 
Would they want that? - That would complicate and lengthen the war.
Not if August joins the war when its outcome is clear but his participation is still welcomed because it may shorten the war. Don’t forget that August has something valuable to offer, the Saxon siege artillery: the allies still may need to take a fortress or two.
 
He may end up getting Podolia or something else just to demonstrate the tangible gains from what otherwise is a pure cabinet war.

Yea that's what I thought when I brought up territorial exchange. Basically Peter Showing up new ancestral lands to his subjects for propaganda points. Not that he needs them but still nice to have.
 
Yea that's what I thought when I brought up territorial exchange. Basically Peter Showing up new ancestral lands to his subjects for propaganda points. Not that he needs them but still nice to have.
Exactly. It is all about the image: Peter is bragging about returning the ancestral Orthodox lands (very good for the domestic PR regardless real values; look at CII and the 1st Partition) and August/PLC Senate is getting credit for bringing back some historic Polish and Lithuanian lands.
 
Getting ahead of myself…
Just general thoughts regarding the future developments ….

Honestly, I started having serous doubts about the post-war arrangement. To start with, it requires almost napoleonic warfare and then starts looking too much like the classic Russian proverb about “punishment of the innocents and awarding of uninvolved” [1]

1. Danish-Holstein solution seems reasonable because it removes the major source of the future conflicts from the table by switching from the existing mess and conflicting interests to the reasonably clear cut consolidated possessions and making “Gottorp” completely independent from Denmark.
2. Swedish-Danish solution seems to be preservation of the status quo with Denmark giving up on the idea of returning Scania.
3. Swedish-Prussian solution is somewhat disproportionally harsh (comparing with Denmark, which is getting off easily) but:
  • The whole Pomerania can be considered a harsh but realistic compensation for the Prussian aggression (if Prussia is beaten really seriously). However, there is a way to soften the blow.
  • Memel - not a big issue due to its economic and military insignificance and it is close to the Swedish Courland so no serious problems with maintaining it.
  • Pillau - I have some doubts because for the Sweden it is just one more isolated fortress to maintain and its main purpose is to keep Prussia annoyed. It is not big enough to withstand a dedicated siege for any considerable period of time.
4. PLC-Prussian solution seems much more problematic because so far the only clear reason for it is to provide Peter with some territorial gain:
  • Lithuanian part - a narrow strip of land between the Nieman and Courland. Nobody was going to notice due to the economic irrelevance of the area but for the Grand Duchy (or rather whoever is ordering a music in it at this specific time) this is a boost of a prestige because for many decades it was only losing the territories.
  • Polish part starts looking gratuitously generous because it is seemingly based upon an assumption that Peter has to please the Poles. But why would he even consider such a notion? He wants something from the PLC to justify domestically his participation in the BFW without it looking as a completely unjustified land grab because this may negatively impact political position of his Polish clients. The PLC did not participate in a war and, while it did not prevent Russian army from marching through it territory, it did not prevent the Prussians from doing the same either. Lithuania already got its “fair share” (hurrah! we now have an access to the Curonian Lagoon and can do fishing there [2]) and the Polish compensation does not have to be too generous. Marienwerder region has to be enough because it is cutting East Prussia from the Wistula (hurrah! the Wistula is a Polish River again!) and for this he is getting Podolia, which, besides being populated predominantly by the Ukrainians (aka not “true Polish land”), also was, with the short interruptions, a war theater for many decades (the Ottomans had been owning it for 27 years and could not squeeze enough income to pay their garrisons). As for its immediate economic value, “Podolia is known for its cherries, mulberries, melons, gourds, and cucumbers.” As far as Peter is concerned, the PLC must be happy with the exchange and if some specific individuals are not, they can be explained the wrongfulness of their ideas in some details.
5. Swedish-Hannover solution. In OTL, IIRC, George promised to pay Sweden 1,000,000 reichsthalers for Bremen and Verden. In this TL Charles is still around and may (or may not) refuse an offer. As of right now I’m considering a completely different solution.
6. Saxon-Prussian solution. Cottbus may end up being its compensation for doing little or nothing (depending upon the scenario). Strengthening August’s position vs. the PLC by providing him with a direct access may produce absolutely unnecessary ideas regarding the self-importance, and a right to make the wrong alliances (with the Hapsburgs, for example). His position within the PLC is already strengthened by the return of the lost territories.
7. Russia and Prussia. Strictly speaking, Peter has nothing against Prusssia except that he considers Frederick I to be excessively aggressive and too pro-Austrian (but look at the dates involved). If Prussia is reasonably domestic-oriented, is not trying to interfere into the PLC affairs and is ready to scale down its excessively cozy relations with the Hapsburgs, it start looking as a feasible ally conveniently situated to block potential “wrong” activities of Saxony. Yes, it is going to be squeezed by the “dear brother” (but not Peter, who may offer a carrot for the lost territory in East Prussia) but it still can expand within the HRE. Peter does not have a magic ball showing the future (which may not happen) and his relations with FWI were quite good. If Prussia can digest the loss of Pomerania, the relations with Sweden can be patched as well (for example in support of some expansionist schema or a mutually acceptable land swap).


[1] And the good maps supplied helped to figure this out so my sincere gratitudes.
[2] Not a joke: the Lagoon was (probably still is) rich of various types of fish, including expensive ones like sturgeon).
[3] From Peter’s and Charles’ perspective it is a matter of “when” and “how” rather than “if” and there are no illusions regarding his successor so it is better not to have a solid pro-Austrian block on the Swedish Southern border.
 
Last edited:
4. PLC-Prussian solution seems much more problematic because so far the only clear reason for it is to provide Peter with some territorial gain:

a war theater (the Ottomans had been owning it for 27 years and could not squeeze enough income to pay their garrisons). As for its immediate economic value, “Podolia is known for its cherries, mulberries, melons, gourds, and cucumbers.”


Wait a minute, i seem to have mixed Podolskie with Polockie and city of Polock in Belorussia , i was under impression that Peter will go for northern lands for more strategic depth to his northern territories and it borders Sweden and PLC (plus that River that goes towards Riga looks valuable). Also
Polock was more valuable. But yea I'm not so sure about the further expansion in the south as it unnecessarily expands borders with the Ottomans which while giving Peter more ancestoral clay creates potential security headache.

(This map lied to me!!! Though you can't blame me for mistaking the two given that names are similar. Like i didn't even notice Podolskie down there).

1200px-Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1772.PNG


Now that I do have right picture I'm really not so sure about necessity of the exchange, on one hand getting territories to justify the war would be good, but on other hand it's not particularly worth of Giving August to much of a bost and undoing all the work in LNW to shake up Augustus position in PLC for (Peter doesn't want August getting to powerful)... Plus once again it extends Russian border with the Ottomans more than necessary potentially creating more headaches than necessary as Russian border on the south is mostly fine.

Edit:

Also yea i was occupied with Swedish position and more clay that I forgot to think about Russian position. Now to think about it correctly you do strike a point about Russo/Prussian relationship , from Russian perspective as of now Prussia has potential to be an ally and even more so when we consider that it was among first countries to acknowledge Peter's imperial title. Generally I'm not so sure anymore that more clay is good idea for Peter when he doesn't really need it and Russia ultimately has different interest than Sweden so continuing to maintain good relationship with Prussia does have merits. Maybe reparations are fine in this case combined with Diplo points to press opening of the Danish strait's for Russia (and one more friend in Baltic to back that claim would be good idea).
 
Last edited:
Top