Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

The Mezinids collapsing was not expected at all, and it'll bring a new dynamic to the Middle East, due to the introduction of the new Irbisid Khaganate, who pose a far more dangerous threat to the Romans than before, especially if it survives. However, it could rapidly collapse as quickly as it has arisen, leaving a power vacuum that could easily lead to the Roman Empire annexing Persia into the fold or at least keeping the smaller Persian polities as vassals/tributaries. Unlike OTL, it really seems that the Persians are not in a good spot, due to the fall of the Mezinids while also being overshadowed by the Greeks as the premier cultural force in Eastern Islam.
I was certainly amused at this world's version of Tamerlane having the name of Khubilai Khan. :)
 
Persians are not in a good spot, due to the fall of the Mezinids while also being overshadowed by the Greeks as the premier cultural force in Eastern Islam.
I think Persian as a whole is still probably fairly healthy as a prestige language in eastern Islam and I'd even hazard that it's one of the prestige languages in places like Mesopotamia, despite Bataid grecophilia. The state isn't necessarily the main actor here and culture is set equally by transregional Sufi organisations and tribesmen the Bataids probably don't have absolute power over. Further Persian worked as a prestige language almost precisely because Persia itself wasn't especially hegemonic and anyway the Iranian court mainly used Turkic languages- it didn't belong to anyone it was just a cultured cosmopolitan medium with a rich and delocalised heritage. Greek is too associated with the Roman state to have those connotations. Even if the Bataids aren't patronising it as much as the ottomans, id hazard that in central Asia and India Persian is still the major prestige tongue, maybe even making some inroads into the worldview of Sanskrit literati, as was happening by this point in otl as well.
 
Given the heavy grip of the Caribbean area by Al-Andalus, it's actually likelier for the Golden Age of Piracy be based around the Newfoundland/Barshil and the American Eastern Seaboard area. Andalusian trade fleets being pirated by Anglish and Nordic pirates in the cold northern waters of the Atlantic is one interesting twist to that idea. Instead of Carib natives, it'll be the Alascan natives joining in the piracy...

Mostly since I'm basing it on the idea that foreign based pirates needs local foreign ports, which doesn't exist in the heavily Andalusian Caribbean but beginning to form with the Anglish Massachusetts in the north...

First it was the Salqabid vs Samurai, now it's the Deadliest Catch version of the Pirates of the Caribbean...
 
Thats big moves in the middle east did not see that happening. Mezinids were described as having a big army the last time and ready to fight any expansionists Bataid moves. Hashmites rallied the Bedouins and were mentioned as being powerful both powers got smashed.
 
I think Persian as a whole is still probably fairly healthy as a prestige language in eastern Islam and I'd even hazard that it's one of the prestige languages in places like Mesopotamia, despite Bataid grecophilia.
I agree that Persian would still remain a significant prestige language in Eastern Islam, especially in places east of the Levant like in Mesopotamia, Persia, Central Asia, or even in India like the Nimanni Sultanate where the Bataids have little control. Persianate culture is also still heavily entrenched in those areas, even with the fall of the Mezinids, due to the legacy that the Persians had over Islam in general.

Still, it's hard to see Persian culture achieve the same level of dominance that it enjoyed in OTL, since none of the great powers of Islam in MiaJ are Persianate, with Al-Andalus being primarily European/Amazigh while the Bataids are Greek. Islam in the future would probably look radically different from our own with the absence of Persian cultural domination in both Eastern and Western Islam.

There's still hope for a Persian revival though in the 16th century, especially if the Irbisid Khaganate collapses shortly after the Snow Leopard Khan's death. If the power vacuum is not filled by the Romans rolling into Iran, it is possible that a new Persian dynasty could rise once again to unify the disparate states back into a single empire.

What that future Iranian state could follow is really interesting, because they could take radically different paths, depending on who takes over the region. They could follow the Abbasid Caliph once again like the Mezinids or follow the path of the Egyptians and rally under the Umayyads. A Shia dynasty like the OTL Safavids could even assert themselves and make Iran a Shia state like in our timeline, opposing both the Asmarids and the Bataids.

I was certainly amused at this world's version of Tamerlane having the name of Khubilai Khan. :)
Man, these series of events really does mirror the Timurids, doesn't it? :)
 
I have a question about Russia, but if Russia has a different origin, shouldn't it have a different name?
Nah, Kievan Rus' existed before the POD. The name "Russia" is a pretty common derivation of "Rus'."

Man, these series of events really does mirror the Timurids, doesn't it? :)
Khubilai Khan is probably the last of the Turkic conquerors. Even OTL, there were a few of these guys who came out of nowhere and formed large but fleeting empires almost without warning.
 
I have a question about Russia, but if Russia has a different origin, shouldn't it have a different name?
As Planet of Cats say, the name exist since the viking era, maybe before, you need an early POD to destroy the Rus/Rusland/Russia name
 
What are the endonyms of Russia and Ruthenia? How do Ruthenians and Russians refer to themselves in their native language(s)?
 
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Hmm, polandball based on the latest map...

EDIT: How much of a improbability that the death of Snow Leopard Khan would result in a rise of a Zoroastrian Persian dynasty?
 
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EDIT: How much of a improbability that the death of Snow Leopard Khan would result in a rise of a Zoroastrian Persian dynasty?
Fairly improbable, even impossible, given most Zoroastrian noble families have been converted to Islam or have perished since the 800 years between the takeover of the Sassanid Empire and now, so there's very little basis of a new Zoroastrian dynasty. There would be very little support for a Zoroastrian ruler either, since most Persians are Sunni, with some Shia in Persia or in Mesopotamia. It's infinitely more likely for an Umayyad Sunni dynasty or a Twelver Shia dynasty to arise in Persia than a Zoroastrian one, quite sadly.

Given the heavy grip of the Caribbean area by Al-Andalus, it's actually likelier for the Golden Age of Piracy be based around the Newfoundland/Barshil and the American Eastern Seaboard area. Andalusian trade fleets being pirated by Anglish and Nordic pirates in the cold northern waters of the Atlantic is one interesting twist to that idea. Instead of Carib natives, it'll be the Alascan natives joining in the piracy...

Mostly since I'm basing it on the idea that foreign based pirates needs local foreign ports, which doesn't exist in the heavily Andalusian Caribbean but beginning to form with the Anglish Massachusetts in the north...

First it was the Salqabid vs Samurai, now it's the Deadliest Catch version of the Pirates of the Caribbean...
Given the existing competition between the Andalusians and the Anglish for highly prized cod fishing grounds and the tendency for the Anglish to raid Andalusian ships from the colonies to the Maghurins and other islands for goods and possibly slaves, it is definitely possible that piracy is concentrated in Helenia and the rest of the Eastern Seaboard. Of course, the Andalusians will respond in kind as it is already being done with the increasing resistance to Anglish piracy. With even greater incentives for Andalusi and Maghrebi to pick up the sword against the infidels, we could see corsairs raiding Christian colonies for goods and slaves as well (After all, what happened to the original Anglish colonists that went to the Maghurins...hmmmm???).

All of this increased contact with foreigners will inevitably have an effect on the Native Algarvians who could support the Christian Nordics or the Muslim Andalusi for their own reasons.

Another thing that could emerge from this is the formation of joint-stock companies in Al-Andalus, since before, ships could travel from the Algarves to Europe relatively unscathed but now with the increased risks from Nordic piracy, it seems likely that the merchant class, especially the big merchant families like the Banu Angelino will follow this path and pool their investments together to spread that risk. Wu China already has joint-stock companies, so the idea will inevitably trickle back into Europe, primarily Al-Andalus, who are the biggest trading powers at the moment.

EDIT: Reply to Yama951 on the nature of piracy in the Algarves (Deadliest Catch is rather ominous...) plus the possibility of early joint-stock companies.
 
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Given the heavy grip of the Caribbean area by Al-Andalus, it's actually likelier for the Golden Age of Piracy be based around the Newfoundland/Barshil and the American Eastern Seaboard area. Andalusian trade fleets being pirated by Anglish and Nordic pirates in the cold northern waters of the Atlantic is one interesting twist to that idea. Instead of Carib natives, it'll be the Alascan natives joining in the piracy...

Mostly since I'm basing it on the idea that foreign based pirates needs local foreign ports, which doesn't exist in the heavily Andalusian Caribbean but beginning to form with the Anglish Massachusetts in the north...

First it was the Salqabid vs Samurai, now it's the Deadliest Catch version of the Pirates of the Caribbean...
Spain had claimed and officially colonized the Caribbean area and yet, that didn't stop pirates and privateers from establishing themselves there. The Asmarids seem to have colonized the Caribbean as much as the Spaniards or less aggressively than them. There are LOTS of hidden coves and islands for pirates to base themselves in. It's why the Golden Age of Piracy stemmed from there.

I can see it still happening here.
 
EDIT: How much of a improbability that the death of Snow Leopard Khan would result in a rise of a Zoroastrian Persian dynasty?
Another thing that could emerge from this is the formation of joint-stock companies in Al-Andalus, since before, ships could travel from the Algarves to Europe relatively unscathed but now with the increased risks from Nordic piracy, it seems likely that the merchant class, especially the big merchant families like the Banu Angelino will follow this path and pool their investments together to spread that risk. Wu China already has joint-stock companies, so the idea will inevitably trickle back into Europe, primarily Al-Andalus, who are the biggest trading powers at the moment.
Muslim itself don' do traditional stock..but expect european sytle cooperatives in why both sailors and merchant invest to bring back the cargo safe..if anything we could see a way when farisi and other soldiers would do money...as soldiers in the ships
 
Muslim itself don' do traditional stock..but expect european sytle cooperatives in why both sailors and merchant invest to bring back the cargo safe..if anything we could see a way when farisi and other soldiers would do money...as soldiers in the ships
Eh, Islamic Finance makes an art out of dodging religious interdict, I expect the same will happen here, joint ownership by the propertied class is just way too useful to the development of capitalism to be passed up.
 
Spain had claimed and officially colonized the Caribbean area and yet, that didn't stop pirates and privateers from establishing themselves there. The Asmarids seem to have colonized the Caribbean as much as the Spaniards or less aggressively than them. There are LOTS of hidden coves and islands for pirates to base themselves in. It's why the Golden Age of Piracy stemmed from there.

I can see it still happening here.
I recall reading that part of the reason on why other nations got a piece of the Caribbean pie was due to Spain focusing more on the gold of the New World and the New Spain colony than the islands between Spain and New Spain in tanking its gold based economy.

Given that Andalus is focused on trade than stealing gold and later cash crop plantations, they would be more focused on taking control of the islands than inland plantations.
 
I recall reading that part of the reason on why other nations got a piece of the Caribbean pie was due to Spain focusing more on the gold of the New World and the New Spain colony than the islands between Spain and New Spain in tanking its gold based economy.

Given that Andalus is focused on trade than stealing gold and later cash crop plantations, they would be more focused on taking control of the islands than inland plantations.
Valid point. I'd still think that the lucrative trade through the Caribbean would still mean piracy appearing among its islands and coves.

Here's to the Pirates of the Moorish Main!
 
Valid point. I'd still think that the lucrative trade through the Caribbean would still mean piracy appearing among its islands and coves.

Here's to the Pirates of the Moorish Main!
It's still certainly possible that Nordic and Andalusi pirates could use the many caves and coves in the Pearl Islands as hiding spots or even bases of attack against enemy ships in the Pearl Seas, since even with the increased patrolling of the Asmarid Navy, it's still a huge body of water. Still, I don't think we'll see any form of Pirate Republics or major bases happening because of it, as the Asmarids could just choke out the pirates if they ever make a major settlement. Instead, we might see them popping up in King Robart's Land or the surrounding areas for the Anglish, Danish, and Swedish while the Andalusi or the Maghrebi might settle around the OTL Bahamas, the Kharshuf, or even in the OTL American South.

EDIT: Since we have Jewish sailors and explorers already, either through Sephardic/Mizrahi lines, does that mean we could potentially see Jewish pirates attacking the Nordic Christians? That is certainly a possibility.... :evilsmile:

EDIT #2: YES, THIS IS A THING.
 
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It's still certainly possible that Nordic and Andalusi pirates could use the many caves and coves in the Pearl Islands as hiding spots or even bases of attack against enemy ships in the Pearl Seas, since even with the increased patrolling of the Asmarid Navy, it's still a huge body of water. Still, I don't think we'll see any form of Pirate Republics or major bases happening because of it, as the Asmarids could just choke out the pirates if they ever make a major settlement. Instead, we might see them popping up in King Robart's Land or the surrounding areas for the Anglish, Danish, and Swedish while the Andalusi or the Maghrebi might settle around the OTL Bahamas, the Kharshuf, or even in the OTL American South.
As people say..rather the carribea/pearl island...north america/atlantic algravez would be the pirate sea, i always call vikes as ice pirates(because that is what they where), now this might be a reality
 
Great chapter, and thx for the map .
I hope the Andalusia start spying on wu to steel some tech 😈 and they really need to increase the population to face the Abbasid's.. Just in case.
Also I hope the new Turkich warlord can go conquering India and Persia to forme the Mughal Empire ittl
If you look at it Persia now is not that strong and the sultans of India are not that different in power to Persia
Instead of fighting the bataids he can call for a war to spread the word of Allah in India, it will give him a lot of prestige and a lot of the warriors will come to serve him because if I remember the Pakistani and Afghanistan regions have a lot of martial history.
 
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ACT VIII Appendix B: Supplemental Mapdate
I'm at a point where I feel like there are a million tiny details that I nee to keep track of now as we move into the modern world.

Re. the Algarvian polities: I'll have a lot to say about them in a future post that should warrant more detail. But I guess this one will drill down into a few lesser lights that aren't super obvious on the map.

* The Low Countries: OTL, unity in this area was fostered by the Burgundian and Habsburg interlude, but with this TL's Geroldsecks concentrated in Swabia and Bohemia, the big mover in the Low Countries is Frederick III, Duke of Brabant and Count of Holland. Frederick's family - the House of Antwerp - is a cadet branch of the Reginarids and has been accumulating power steadily over the years, managing to unify a lot of smaller fiefs under their own rulership through both marriage and internecine warring. Marriage alliances have also ensured that Frederick has claims on Flanders, which is still a French territory, albeit one that tends to go its own way a lot. It's likely that Frederick's desire for Flanders will bring the Holy Roman Empire and France to blows at some point, a war France would struggle to win considering that the HRE is riding high right now. The dialect of German here is becoming very heavily influenced by Brabantine, earlier so than OTL, leading steadily towards a language with some vague similarities to Dutch but with more accusative forms and a few different phrases you wouldn't hear in the OTL Dutch language. What's also driving prosperity here is trade: The coastal cities in Brabant and Holland do brisk trade with the Nordic countries, especially Angland. At the moment, Antwerp is one of the most prosperous cities in the Holy Roman Empire, with a thriving and cosmopolitan mercantile class embracing new ideas about trade and travel. If any HRE colonization occurs, it is likely to be spearheaded by sailors out of Brabant.

* The Archduchy of Swabia: As Denliner noticed, the home of the Geroldsecks. While they also control Bohemia right now, they've elevated their holdings in Swabia to a special status: Archduchy. They control Baden and a huge chunk of Transjurania as well as much of the area east of Baden. The big city of note in this area is actually Strassburg, and one of the less publicized conditions of the HRE's trouncing of the Pope recently was abrogating the "Prince" part of the Prince-Bishopric there and bringing the city under control of the Geroldsecks, ostensibly as an Imperial City, in fact because the Geroldsecks wanted the tax revenue from the region's largest municipality. The centrality of this area and the dominance of the Geroldsecks here will likely ensure that Swabia will have some sort of special status long into the future, even if the Geroldsecks lose control of Bohemia - or lose control of Swabia and remain in Bohemia.

* The Duchy of Rugen: The House of Strahl rules this area, the most prosperous region in the HRE's northeast. While the population here were originally Slavs subjugated by the Germans, German culture has spread rapidly here, and many families of old Slavic stock consider themselves German now. Rugen itself has become something of a private island for the wealthy and noble, controlled directly from the city of Strahl right across from it and covered in beautifully manicured gardens and elegant manors. In the hinterlands, you can still find Slavic-speakers descended from the Veleti, known as Wiltzen to the Germans, but most of society has been Germanized. This area is quite prosperous, doing a brisk trade with other northern cities and serving as a key receiving port for furs shipped down from places like Tavastia, Prussia and Russia. There's a lot of wealth accumulating around here, and a lot of power to go with it.

* Vienne: A major bone of contention between the Holy Roman Empire and the rising Kingdom of Romania. Guy the Great views Vienne and its surrounding region as a de jure holding of his, as ruler of what was once the Arelat, but the Holy Roman Empire considers the old Arelat to be long-time German territory. The Geroldsecks stand on this point strongly, as losing the Dauphine area would put Romania closer to the core of the Geroldseck demesne. It's one of many flashpoints between Romania and the HRE, one that's likely to get caught up in future disputes about who is and is not the successor of the Romans. The Geroldsecks do not like that their southern neighbour is claiming the name "Romania," despite the fact that the Provencal language is increasingly just called "Romance" and despite the fact that the Romanians justify it by their control over the Roman Province. Now that the HRE again controls northern Italy, their claim is strengthened, but Romania's control of southern Italy gives them another card in their deck, too.

* Ireland: Decidedly not happy with being under the thumb of Angland, but with little leadership capable of making hay about it. The Anglish ate Ireland piecemeal, with the island divided into little counties and chiefdoms unable to truly oppose the takeover. For the most part, Ireland is controlled by Anglish landholders who treat the Irish like serfs, or by Irish petty kinglets who sold out to the Anglish to save their own skins. There are periodic rebellions here, but they're mostly of a peasant nature: Now and then groups of serfs will rise up with pitchforks and torches, obligating the Anglish to come in and stomp them down. As yet, there has been no great unifying rebel leader able to bring the Irish together to mount a serious rebellion.

* The Bataids: Actually the most ethnically diverse power on Earth right now. Islam is beginning to take root in conquered lands, though rather more slowly than it did in Iberia. Greek culture is proving fairly resilient, and even nearly 300 years after the fall of Constantinople, there is no Muslim majority in Hellas - something like 40% of Greeks have converted. The Bataids don't mind that, because the Greek lands are wealthy and the dhimmi tax is quite lucrative. Those Greeks who did convert are developing a distinctly Arabic and Persian-influenced form of Greek culture, one the Patzinaks are embracing elements of as well. Arabic is the language of state and religion, though Greek is commonly written in an Ajami script. Notably, a lot of Arabs, Persians and Berbers HATE the Bataids and view their rule as the captivity of the Caliphate by Turks and Greeks.
 
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