Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

Read previous chapter, seems start to become strong, for female and even some males are using it too, if anything i'll not surprised if Andalus start native silk production too in the future
Yes, with the incoming Sinophilia amongst Andalusi and Maghrebi in the Asmarid Empire, silk is definitely in high demand, since it's the trendy fashion choice as of now, for both women and some men willing to defy religious rulings.

However, I still wonder if the Bataids are another huge source of silk, since the Romans managed to get silkworms during the reign of Justinian I and created an entire industry out of it. Without the Crusades, it is firmly within Constantinople's hands, assuming that the industry survived the turbulent period before the Bataids. Through that, the Romans can easily provide the Andalusi and the Maghrebi, especially the lower classes, a cheaper, but lower quality source of silk compared to the Chinese. Still, with the chafing of Chinese and Roman merchants charging exuberant prices for it, it might result in the Hajibs ordering a heist of Chinese/Roman silkworms and milkweed to produce a native silk industry for themselves. I still think it's a wonderful story idea in ACT IX, since stealing Chinese industries is often a common thing in history.....

Madhav Deval also made a good post about the potential of mashru silks or mixed silk-cotton clothing being popular in Al-Andalus, since it allows men and women to freely wear silk without being burdened with sin (Post #2501). As a result, India, being the primary producer of such clothes, could become even more important as a textile manufacturer on top of its spice trade in the global market, which could have interesting consequences down the line (*cough* Industrial Revolution *cough*).
 
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India could become even more important as a textile manufacturer on top of its spice trade in the global market, which could have interesting consequences down the line (*cough* Industrial Revolution *cough*).
Imagine if the age of revolutions/nationalism ends up uniting India and dividing China lmao. Sounds unrealistic until you realize Yugoslavia existed at one point and Belgium still does

India probably gonna be textile kings like OTL but Andalus could potentially, just like England, ban Indian imports and try to create local mills along the Guadalquivir
 
Imagine if the age of revolutions/nationalism ends up uniting India and dividing China lmao. Sounds unrealistic until you realize Yugoslavia existed at one point and Belgium still does

India probably gonna be textile kings like OTL but Andalus could potentially, just like England, ban Indian imports and try to create local mills along the Guadalquivir
I agree that Al-Andalus might just attempt to do the same thing as OTL England did and expand on their own textile industry to compete with the Indians, like making their own mashru products. As a result, it could be the primary trigger of their own industrial revolution, either learning the machinery independently from China or from the Indians themselves. This is because industrialization is probably even more relevant for the manpower stripped Andalusi/Maghrebi, whose peoples are leaving towards the colonies in substantial numbers, compared to China or India.
 
I apologize for dragging this discussion away from silk and textiles, but I just found a surprisingly incredible resource on Maya culture that I need to talk about: MayaDecipherment.com . The blog is a cornucopia of Maya studies that primarily focuses on the decipherment of the Classic Maya language, but also delves into Maya culture (with some offshoots into the greater Mesoamerican region).

The most recent post: Canonical Space and Maya Markets, explores how the ancient Maya and Mexica operated their markets, as well as the types of wares sold and the surrounding culture (and architecture) of Mesoamerican commerce. During the Late Classic to Terminal Classic period of Maya civilization (approximately 600-900 CE), it seemed as if many cities saw a period of building defensive walls, often in concentric rings around the temple-palace central plaza. There were also an explosion of what seemed like squatter settlements within the Maya cities.


(Walls and apparent squatter settlements in the Maya city of Dos Pilas, Guatemala)

However, recent archaeological surveys and reinterpretation of existing sites/artifacts bring up a different theory: those squatter settlements were in fact markets, and the walls may have been built for both defense and trade purposes as well. A walled city can monitor goods coming in and out, provide greater means of taxation, and make it easier to monitor trade. The post also points to a speculative, yet darker purpose: the walls may have been built to keep people in. Some of these facilities may have been pens, the corrals of people. As the Mayan world collapsed and the social contract disintegrated, slave-taking may have grown into a lucrative business, and the walls acted as a way to keep human cargo in place for their buyers.

In short, the collapse of the Maya civilization saw a burst in the slave trade. As the post puts it: "For a time, and perhaps among the Terminal Classic Maya, fluid [human] trade could coexist with fragmenting societies."

Coming back to MiaJ, I can't help but wonder if the same process is being repeated, especially in the Yucatan and Otomi lands. The influx of new diseases would lead to a fragmenting of regional state power, weakening or outright severing the social contract of rulers and the ruled. Couple this with the introduction of newcomers with a faith that allows enslavement of non-Muslims, and it wouldn't be odd to find slavers taking advantage of the situation by kidnapping/taking non-Muslims or people from traditional Mesoamerican states to sell them to Andalusians, or their fellow clients. Such a process would partially explain the rise of the Otomi Alliance to dominate central Mesoamerica as well as the Mixtec rulers' and other lords' nominal conversion to Islam. If you don't want your kingdom to be penned and your people be strung with rope and sticks around their necks, best pay subservience to the new masters of the world.

Anyhow, even if I or the blog are wrong, I still find this era simply too fascinating to stay silent. :relievedface:
 
India probably gonna be textile kings like OTL but Andalus could potentially, just like England, ban Indian imports and try to create local mills along the Guadalquivir
One thing I was reading a while ago is that the reason the ottomans were so ready to allow imports was that they operated on the economic policy that it's the states job to ensure that all it's subjects have access to as much basic necessities and foodstuffs as possible for as cheap as possible. For this reason, they regulated exports and tried to maximize imports, the opposite of European mercantilism. The asmarids may go towards this route especially if there emerges a large urban underclass in the capital pushing towards socialist policies, and even if they don't it is a competing economic theory that must have some influence ittl in some states.

What I mean is that European mercantilism, thought it might seem like it to us with the benefit of hindsight, was not the common sense way of managing your Economy for many actors in the early modern period.
 
If you don't want your kingdom to be penned and your people be strung with rope and sticks around their necks, best pay subservience to the new masters of the world.
Or better be the one benefit of it and get unique fabrics(clothes,tapestries), book(Qu'ran, techical ones) and weapon your rivals can't defend too...yeah there a reason why Otomi and early heterodox native muslim growth so fast...
 
Or better be the one benefit of it and get unique fabrics(clothes,tapestries), book(Qu'ran, techical ones) and weapon your rivals can't defend too...yeah there a reason why Otomi and early heterodox native muslim growth so fast...
Point, and the are also the benefits of social togetherness with the Andalusians to consider. But just as quacks and opportunists quickly come after a disaster to take advantage of local people, so too will there be local men and women who will sell out their fellow neighbors to get some extra cash. Given the frayed social contract of the region due to plague (and depressing real-life examples of human trafficking), there is a high chance of the existence of local groups that trade in fellow humans.

Fun fact: Spanish accounts say that most of the people selling slaves at the Aztec capital's market of Tlatelolco were women. Wonder if there are also women slavers in Mesoamerica ITTL.
 
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Point, and the are also the benefits of social togetherness with the Andalusians to consider. But just as quacks and opportunists quickly come after a disaster to take advantage of local people, so too will there be local men and women who will sell out their fellow neighbors to get some extra cash. Given the frayed social contract of the region due to plague (and depressing real-life examples of human trafficking), there is a high chance of the existence of local groups that trade in fellow humans.

Fun fact: Spanish accounts say that most of the people selling slaves at the Aztec capital's market of Tlatelolco were women. Wonder if there are also women slavers in Mesoamerica ITTL.
The Otomi and other Islamized peoples like the Purepecha, Nahua, or the Chichimeca could be similar to the Africans OTL and in MiaJ in terms of the slave trade, further expanding the already established practice into ludicrous levels in order to meet the demand of both the domestic and foreign markets. The acquisition of rare products like porcelain, silk, guns, and other goods are also a major motivator towards this as well like in OTL. This would be one of the reasons why they expand northwards, searching for pagans to enslave either due to raids from independent slaver bands (possibly women included) or POWs due to conflicts with the Otomi Alliance. With the adoption of cavalry, this just makes this much easier in conducting raids towards pagans like the Yaqui or the Pueblo peoples.

It would be an extremely bloody way for Algarvians to convert to Islam to save their own skin compared to the peaceful proselytization of Muslim scholars of centuries past and a source of emnity from those in Aztlan to the peoples of Anawak in the future.
 
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The Otomi and other Islamized peoples like the Purepecha, Nahua, or the Chichimeca could be similar to the Africans OTL and in MiaJ in terms of the slave trade, further expanding the already established practice into ludicrous levels in order to meet the demand of both the domestic and foreign markets. The acquisition of rare products like porcelain, silk, guns, and other goods are also a major motivator towards this as well like in OTL. This would be one of the reasons why they expand northwards, searching for pagans to enslave either due to raids from independent slaver bands (possibly women included) or POWs due to conflicts with the Otomi Alliance. With the adoption of cavalry, this just makes this much easier in conducting raids towards pagans like the Yaqui or the Pueblo peoples.
Well, there is one break on this. In this TL, the native societies are weakened, but they have not collapsed, so the incredibly large-scale slave trade of the Terminal Classic Maya isn't in the cards. However, there is also an incentive to gain money or power in part of the opportunists, given the wider markets available for them across Anawak, Tirunah and the Pearl Islands.

I think, in all, the MiaJ slave trade in the Algarves will most resemble that of Maritime Southeast Asia during the 14th to 18th centuries. There is a great incentive to capture indigenous pagan folks from the islands, mountains, and coasts into slavery, but it wouldn't be the gigantic West African or Omani slave trade either, as the regional economy wasn't into gigantic slave plantations (yet) or made of rich nobles picking off entire populations from collapsing states (and hopefully not). The Andalusis already have a supply of slaves from the Bilad-as-Sudan, which further disincentives local slavers from simply capturing entire villages.
 
Well, there is one break on this. In this TL, the native societies are weakened, but they have not collapsed, so the incredibly large-scale slave trade of the Terminal Classic Maya isn't in the cards. However, there is also an incentive to gain money or power in part of the opportunists, given the wider markets available for them across Anawak, Tirunah and the Pearl Islands.

I think, in all, the MiaJ slave trade in the Algarves will most resemble that of Maritime Southeast Asia during the 14th to 18th centuries. There is a great incentive to capture indigenous pagan folks from the islands, mountains, and coasts into slavery, but it wouldn't be the gigantic West African or Omani slave trade either, as the regional economy wasn't into gigantic slave plantations (yet) or made of rich nobles picking off entire populations from collapsing states (and hopefully not). The Andalusis already have a supply of slaves from the Bilad-as-Sudan, which further disincentives local slavers from simply capturing entire villages.
You know i realize something...the one adopting Slave plantation might not be only the andalusi but the OTOMI and others too, the land is still pagan, they need hard currency for Andalusian goods and weapons, they could get the knowledge, they are already islamized,meaning pagan neighboor are fair game, we're going to see a different scenario when Otomi become the plating elite alongside the trade one thanks the advantage of locally? we could see the scenario of Otomi later importing slaves too...
 
You know i realize something...the one adopting Slave plantation might not be only the andalusi but the OTOMI and others too, the land is still pagan, they need hard currency for Andalusian goods and weapons, they could get the knowledge, they are already islamized,meaning pagan neighboor are fair game, we're going to see a different scenario when Otomi become the plating elite alongside the trade one thanks the advantage of locally? we could see the scenario of Otomi later importing slaves too...
Or alternativley serving as an exporter of slaves to other parts of the Dar al-Islam?
 
Or alternativley serving as an exporter of slaves to other parts of the Dar al-Islam?
The Otomi won't be a massive exporter of slaves, especially in comparison to Africa, like the Sudan region, where polities like Ubinu or Nikongo can just raid the interiors or trade with local chiefs for hordes of Zanj slaves. After all, the region of Anawak is still recovering from the plagues by the 1480s and it is doubtful that native Algarvians from the North have been exposed to Old World disease. As a result, the Otomi and other ethnic groups in the Otomi Alliance might behave more like what Al-numbers described, opportunistically seeking out slaves as they expand, but not having enough to supply a significant portion of the demand.

It seems more likely that they'll become an extremely important importer of slaves. After all, they control the majority of the land necessary for the cultivation of highly prized chocolate, vanilla, and coffee. Other cash crops like cotton, indigo, and sugar are also cultivated in the region as well. The Zanj would probably constitute the majority of slave/near-slave labor in the Algarves, but Europeans could also make a significant minority within the population as well.

Imagining a native cash crop baron controlling a huge chocolate plantation staffed by blacks and whites in MiaJ is pretty wild, given what happened OTL.
 
Imagining a native cash crop baron controlling a huge chocolate plantation staffed by blacks and whites in MiaJ is pretty wild, given what happened OTL.
Talk a lot how Different are Muslim vs Nazareans are, and yeah Otomi are something without Equivalent even among TL's, a Native Muslim polity slowly could become a old world style empire in the new world

Another thing i realize, is that Andalusi could make the Carribean/Pearl Island ITTL, into the new world Nusantara...that would be interesting to see too
 
Another thing i realize, is that Andalusi could make the Carribean/Pearl Island ITTL, into the new world Nusantara...that would be interesting to see too
OTL Spain had enough interests elsewhere (Mexico, Peru) that the Caribbean kinda went to seed, not enough naval presence to keep English/French pirates and settlers from grabbing little islands here and there, so that later the parent nations can go "well, time to govern our subjects" and force Spain to give up those areas by treaty

The Andalusis don't have the big New World empire so the colonists have to make their money off Caribbean crops still, so you're not going to have stuff like western Hispaniola being nearly vacant so that French settlers could slip right in and bring the French flag with them a hundred years later. Then again, the Caribbean may lose a certain quality from not being an incomprehensible mess of competing sovereignties and co-optation of every legal/illegal institution from native chiefdoms to pirate fleets for the sake of painting some rock the right color on the map and planting sugar on that rock
 
Also who is going to colonise what. England is the only real rival, as they control the three kingdoms, but canada and the us are still there most likely target so little battle for andalusian sphere being pirates is enough. Denmark cant make big without sweden coming in to take advantage. France has to deal with the breakaway kingdom.
 
Also who is going to colonise what. England is the only real rival, as they control the three kingdoms, but canada and the us are still there most likely target so little battle for andalusian sphere being pirates is enough. Denmark cant make big without sweden coming in to take advantage. France has to deal with the breakaway kingdom.
Given the situation, Angland probably will make colonies in the Eastern Seaboard similar to OTL England but far earlier, since they have already scouted Helenia (Massachusetts), Elderbeve (Nova Scotia), and Brazil (Newfoundland) in earnest. With Muslim maps falling into Christian hands, they'll know a lot more of the Algarves like the Meshishib (Mississippi) or Kharshuf (Florida) regions. Don't forget about Alcatraz (Cuba) :openedeyewink:!

I think these colonies will be very different from OTL England, since Angland might just only be colonizing to compete with the Andalusi over fishing in the Northern Algarves, as well as be able to delve into the fur trade in the future, acting similar to OTL France or the Hudson Bay Company. Alternatively, Hats could do something different and have an Anglish land in the South, following a similar path to Jamestown, allowing them to have a greater incentive in competing with the Andalusi in the cash crop trade.

While Angland might be the big Christian European colonizer, I still believe that Denmark and Sweden could colonize and hold significant territories, since they both have sizeable navies and an incentive to explore similar to the Anglish, which is for more plentiful stocks of fish in the Northern Algarves as well as stories of gold and wealth from the Andalusi. Even France and Romania, divided and busy as they are, could also send colonists to the New World. If the Dutch and the Latvians were able to send colonists to the Americas and make stable colonies, then why not the rest of Europe like the HRE?

It's the matter of keeping those colonies long enough is of another concern. Competition in Europe is fierce, and so will the colonization of the Northern Algarves, maybe even more so than OTL. Arguably this is better for the Native Algarvians if the Europeans remain distracted and constantly fight each other instead of focusing on colonization, displacing the natives as a result. The Haudenosaunee are undeniably the big players of the colonization of the North, although I wouldn't ignore the other tribes of the region and their stories are just as interesting when it comes to dealing with the Europeans, especially when they come in droves to set up shop right up in their communal backyard.
 
Given what we'd consider standard alt-hist logic, Chechnya shouldn't be Muslim; and yet the sporadic contacts from Derbend were enough for Islam to spread and then be taken up as an organizing principle of anti-Russian rebellions. With how weird Christianity could get, even if (not a certainty) Andalus deals with the Christian colonies there may be a kind of "sequel" as native groups formerly close to the Christians raise their own fists against the Andalusis.
 
The Holy Roman Empire could also attempt colonization. In OTL, they did that, mostly via Emperor Charles V giving the area of Venezuela to a wealthy German banking family, the Welsers, as payment to cover his massive debts to them. Klein-Venedig has a fascinating potential for alt-history.
 
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Wasn't a Heavenland related post revealed that Canada wasn't colonized by the Scandinavians, and Angland, later on? Or am I connecting two separate points on that one.
 
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