Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

what an epic conclusion
again you proved that you are excellent writer
I digress the cats are to much cute for may week heart 😊
So is the inheritance in al-andalus still a risky thing like in the European kingdoms or the hajib stabilised the process little bit
 
However, I am praying that someone like a Guru Nanak is born in MiaJ to make a Sikh-like religion in the Punjab,
While Nanak and Sikhism are definitely butterflied, all of north India was rife with Nirguni saints teaching about the one formless God who denies the Vedas, caste etc. The only special thing about Sikhism until the Khalsa in 1699 was a more or less successful mechanism for transferring spiritual authority down the generations and rhetoric that specifically appealed to (long distance) traders and bankers. Aside from those it was very much like the sects of Dadu, Kabir etc.
 
hopefully the dog becomes the symbol of Europe and Christianity due to how focused muslim is focused on cats, someone needs to love the dogs.

Can we also get some bataids and asmarid interaction. We haven't had any yet. Morroco and ottomans both were not friends This should apply here maybe andalusia supports the harabids.
 
hopefully the dog becomes the symbol of Europe and Christianity due to how focused muslim is focused on cats, someone needs to love the dogs.

Can we also get some bataids and asmarid interaction. We haven't had any yet. Morroco and ottomans both were not friends This should apply here maybe andalusia supports the harabids.
The Bataids and the Asmarids have had differing foci. The Bataids have had their eyes on Eastern Europe, Persia and the Levant, and their trade is largely based on overland connections with China and India, while the Asmarids circumvent the Bataids completely. The early modern era will see these two powers come into more regular contact, though.
 
It is inevitable that the Asmarids and the Bataids are going to clash with each other, given the territorial ambitions of the Bataids to reclaim formerly Roman territory from both Islam and the Christians, especially Rome, which is something that no one besides the Romans actually want. The Asmarids also follow the Umayyad Caliph while the Bataids champion the Abbasid Caliph, and given the mutual hatred of both Caliphs, conflict is going to be even more likely, once the Bataids look at Ifriqiya and Italy with intense hunger.

If there's any time that cements the Umayyad-Abbasid Schism, it would be this period.

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Yeah...no one wants a strong Roman Empire back again...
 
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I wonder why they even keep them, why just not marry a female Abbasid and claim it more directly
I think it's direct male line of descent. Which is the reason why the Prophet Muhammad's daughter Fatima wasn't made Calipha after her father's death. Though I'm not sure.
 
It is inevitable that the Asmarids and the Bataids are going to clash with each other, given the territorial ambitions of the Bataids to reclaim formerly Roman territory from both Islam and the Christians, especially Rome, which is something that no one besides the Romans actually want. The Asmarids also follow the Umayyad Caliph while the Bataids champion the Abbasid Caliph, and given the mutual hatred of both Caliphs, conflict is going to be even more likely, once the Bataids look at Ifriqiya and Italy with intense hunger.

If there's any time that cements the Umayyad-Abbasid Schism, it would be this period.

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Yeah...no one wants a strong Roman Empire back again...
Unironically i Wanted to wrote a TL the Ummayd Pulled a mini Roman Reunification...just to be usurped by greeks, my division was more north south thand west-east

I think it's direct male line of descent. Which is the reason why the Prophet Muhammad's daughter Fatima wasn't made Calipha after her father's death. Though I'm not sure.
Unironically the Abbasadid claimed descendant of the prophet(PUBH) because his daugthers
 
I wonder why they even keep them, why just not marry a female Abbasid and claim it more directly
Maybe more legitimacy is needed till usurping, also hashmites and mezinids of iran are still strong, doing so gives these states reasons to invade and make their own claim.

Or wild theory bataids did generally believe they are doing the right thing, and not actually trying to usurp it, rather protect it.
 
Unironically i Wanted to wrote a TL the Ummayd Pulled a mini Roman Reunification...just to be usurped by greeks, my division was more north south thand west-east
Suddenly reminded of a what-if idea where instead of the Sassanids being conquered, it was the Byzantines that were conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate.
 
I think it's direct male line of descent. Which is the reason why the Prophet Muhammad's daughter Fatima wasn't made Calipha after her father's death. Though I'm not sure.
Tbf didn't she die not long after him? Also didn't muhammad give fatima alot of land and power in his will which the some of the sahaba disagreed with causing the early strife? Also all claims of descent from muhammad came through fatimah a woman. Also the fatimids are named fatimids not alids so claiming her heritage in stead of ali. Isn't this just the shia position fatimah and ali were the true heirs not the rashidun.
 
Suddenly reminded of a what-if idea where instead of the Sassanids being conquered, it was the Byzantines that were conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate.
Yeah i was inspired by that one, and how would have been a More European Centric Caliphate and one Become More Romanize/Latinize than OTL, and later on that pull the division between a more greco-roman philosphy influenced Islam and a more Sunni based one, i'm still researching on that one.
 
The last Abbasid Caliph bequeathed the Caliphal title to Selim I OTL, so the Bataids could've done the same, although I think there are reasons why the Bataids continue to keep the Abbasid Caliphate.

The Abbasids are probably far stronger in terms of religious authority and prestige in MiaJ compared to OTL, due to them living far longer in Baghdad while also not being consistent puppets of secular rulers like the Seljuks and the Mamluks. In fact, they actually had a small resurgence where they actually owned territory in Mesopotamia due to the failing Turkmen states before the Bataids ate them up. If the Bataids tried to claim the Caliphate now, then the Arabs or the Persians won't recognize them as the Caliph, seeing them as even more of an usurper than now, when they propped up a pretender Caliph.
 
The last Abbasid Caliph bequeathed the Caliphal title to Selim I OTL, so the Bataids could've done the same, although I think there are reasons why the Bataids continue to keep the Abbasid Caliphate.

The Abbasids are probably far stronger in terms of religious authority and prestige in MiaJ compared to OTL, due to them living far longer in Baghdad while also not being consistent puppets of secular rulers like the Seljuks and the Mamluks. In fact, they actually had a small resurgence where they actually owned territory in Mesopotamia due to the failing Turkmen states before the Bataids ate them up. If the Bataids tried to claim the Caliphate now, then the Arabs or the Persians won't recognize them as the Caliph, seeing them as even more of an usurper than now, when they propped up a pretender Caliph.
Or wild theory bataids did generally believe they are doing the right thing, and not actually trying to usurp it, rather protect it.
Under this line of thought is very unique, the Roman Empire of the Abbasid Caliphate(i put roman first for a reason) sound something straight of the old late Merovigean Dynasty or the Japanese Shogunate, we've the Caliph as the nominal Spiritual Leader but the Bataids dynatoi as the true defacto power
 
Under this line of thought is very unique, the Roman Empire of the Abbasid Caliphate(i put roman first for a reason) sound something straight of the old late Merovigean Dynasty or the Japanese Shogunate, we've the Caliph as the nominal Spiritual Leader but the Bataids dynatoi as the true defacto power
Which itself is a copy of the Umayyad Caliph and the Hajib relations.
 
Bataids to reclaim formerly Roman territory
One thing I'm interested to see is how much Romanness drives the political culture of the Bataids. Obviously there's the Greek language, Greco-Roman history and possibly various strands of Hellenistic philosophy being more widely known but what about ideas like the Roman Empire having to last until judgement day? Do they see the Holy Roman Empire as being just like any other kingdom or do they recognise a particular imperial dignity? Do they see involvement with the city of Rome as a core part of Romanness, or do they operate more on the principal that since Caracalla, everyone living in the borders of the old empire is a Roman? If the latter, it could be interesting if they take the high imperialist approach adopted by some advocates of the HRE otl in that the Kings of Europe are by definition illegitimate, they can exist de facto but never de jure because according the old Roman law codes the powers of the emperor are absolute and universal, there is no other position that can have any "imperium" or power to rule.

Side question, what's the legal stance of the Bataids now? Do they take an active position updating and maintaining old Roman laws, even if they're only binding to Christians? Are they operating under the assumption that because it's the same empire all laws from then are still valid now unless they have been superceded by hadith, scripture or a more recent emperor? Are there movements to make Muslims follow some updated sharia friendly law codes? It would have some pretty big implications to have a sultanates ulemma officially base fatwas on this particular source. What do juridical proceedings look like? Do Christians get a civil law based system or do they have to make do with the government appointed qadi?

Also language questions, is greek being written in Arabic script now? Is all high culture still in Koine or is there a recognition Demotic is a different language, descended from Koine? I think the latter may be a little more likely when you look at the distinction between middle and new Persian.
 
Also language questions, is greek being written in Arabic script now? Is all high culture still in Koine or is there a recognition Demotic is a different language, descended from Koine? I think the latter may be a little more likely when you look at the distinction between middle and new Persian.
Interesting points you bring up. I would assume that diglossia or trig loss is of some sort exists between the commonly spoken language and the language taught in schools. The language spoken by the Kaisars might be really conservative due to their Romanophilic ways. The regular Helleno-Patzinak and Converso probably speaks in the way Hats mentioned earlier on in the thread with a lowering of the vowels. The Epirote Catholics probably speak a dialect with a mild Norman and Italian influence if they still exist as a distinct group. Then I would assume the Jewish communities would have their own variant. I would say that all but the ruling class speak something possibly derived from Demotic as the ruling class might want to try and sound somewhat more Roman/educated but even then conversationally its somewhere in between, the closest equivalent would be like Katharevousa with a few Arabic and Patzinak words here and there.

With the existence of Byzantine texts written in a very conservative manner, I guess the Bataids would try their best in emulating that same style. So the Middle Persian - New Persian analogy may exist more as a spectrum with some modern dialects being used for literature while more conservative dialects are preserved for ceremonial and specific scholarly purposes. Over time, the older dialects might be phased out for the sake of standardization and uniformity as states begin to centralize in the Early Modern Period if OTL is anything to look at.
 
The Bataids are trying to be heirs to both the Romans and the Abbasids. IMO this would lead to bit of split-personality.

The Greeks: The Mediterranean is ours by timeless right! Let's show those Latins whose boss, and drive the Umayyads out of the most important body of water in the world!
The Iraqis: The Hindu heathen is resurgent in India, and the Ismailis are left to run rampant by the limp-wristed Mezinids! We must expand through the Indian Ocean, and drive the Umayyads out of the most important body of water in the world!
The Fasiliyus: Well if you both let me raise taxes more we could probably do bo-- *is assassinated*
 
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