Medieval America Mark III

What does "Laura Secord form the jaws of the Opo-Pogo" refer to? And what is a molenna ?
Laura Secord is a Canadian historical figure who became famous for alerting British soldiers about an American advance during the War of 1812. In neo-Medival Canada, she's been remembered as a sort of paramour for Jesus Christ and stories emerged of Jesus rescuing her from the Ogopogo, the infamous cryptid of Okanagan Lake. As for the molennas, they're a sort of small church common in Poland and are also used by modern Dukhobors as houses of worship.
 
Last edited:
So what's happening with Jersey?

My take:

The elites of Jersey are descended from the mob. They style themselves with Mob descended titles like Don, Capo, Soldato. However, they aren't speaking Italian. Even today, Italian Americans seldom speak Italian outside of elderly people who were first-gen immigrants or their eldest children. The courtly language will be Church English. Peasants will speak a descendant of the Jersey Accent.

Along the Atlantic Seaboard, where the USA holds the most sway, elites are speaking Church English because they need a way to communicate to each other. If we want to get funky, the Church might speak in a Transatlantic Accent, to really differentiate themselves from the peasantry, In this case, the courtly language of the Midwest would be general American because the Ohioan president wants to distinguish himself from Baltimore.
In another scenario, Church English might just sound like general American. In which case, Midwestern courtly languages could be General American or derived from an Ohioan dialect.
I don't think that the New Jersey nobility are going to be speaking Italian or an Italian descended language because
1. Noone speaks Italian in New Jersey nowadays so there is nowhere to pick it up from
2. Church English is prestigious and the nobility will want to attach themselves to that symbol of power
3. The Nobles want to sound "Noble" and not like peasants. And sounding noble means sounding different. Because of 1 and 2, the nobility would probably speak what other Nobles are speaking which would probably be Church English.


In terms of the history of New Jersey, the Catholic wars across the Mid Atlantic and New England were not super organized affairs. The Non-Denom Church wasn't the most organized entity at this point. It probably consisted of low-level raiding, escalating over 150 years until large scale wars broke out.

Based on this map
1598383126787.png

Full res version here

There would be Catholic States along Long island and in Rhode Island, Massachusetts and New Jersey. These areas are now a part of the USA. This suggests to me that towards the end of the Catholic Wars, when the USA became a power again, the USA conquered several Catholic States, probably as part of a crusade. The USA probably also subjugated New Jersey in this final Catholic war making the state officially non-denom in the process.

Also many of the universities of America have been coopted by the Church and turned into seminaries and schools for noblemen. This might explain why the North East has dominated the Church. Aside from having more district Supervisors, many churchmen are educated in the Northeast, by virtue of being a relatively peaceful region with alot of seminaries.
 
Last edited:
Coordinated dances like the macarena could be really popular. Especially in a tavern environment. Might be something that survives. Line dances are also probably something thats popular in the Midwest. What else to do when your entire village is in a longhouse in the dead of winter?

 
Still think the elite of Jersey should speak Giorsian as the prestige language. Perhaps "Italian Conlang is too far, but I just aesthetically like them remaining distinct from the rest of the nobility of the Northwest.

Also, I don't think there were many major Catholic crusades in the rest of the Northeast - the Church integrated without a fight in most of the coutnry, it was only in Jersey where it was tied to the mob that they remained adamant.
 
Still think the elite of Jersey should speak Giorsian as the prestige language. Perhaps "Italian Conlang is too far, but I just aesthetically like them remaining distinct from the rest of the nobility of the Northwest.

Also, I don't think there were many major Catholic crusades in the rest of the Northeast - the Church integrated without a fight in most of the coutnry, it was only in Jersey where it was tied to the mob that they remained adamant.
Maybe the people who created the Giorsian Conlang found a damaged English-to-Italian dictionary. So the prestige Giorsian dialect could basically be a mix of English, mispronounced Italian, and vaguely Italian gibberish to fill in the cracks.
 
Whether or not the Jerseyans are Catholic (I think it's realistic for there to be a Catholic plurality in the population at large, maybe more Non-Denom majority among the burghers and nobles) or outright speak Italian, the fact that they have basically the whole Delaware Valley makes them a sort of geographic unit with the potential for great wealth and interconnectedness, but also makes them a distinctive zone surrounded by foothills that fence them off from other river valleys and their people. So yeah it would definitely be a weird and distinctive place with a high quantity of Italian loanwords (maybe leavened with some Puerto Rican Spanish grammar?) in its High Vernacular (the most prestiguous vernacular dialect, not to be confused with Church English).

They might also possibly be just as capable of empathizing with the Quebeckers as the New Englanders on the topic of the Maine/Ontario Wars, maybe seeing the Quebeckers as a necessary thing that keeps New England from picking a fight with the Giorsians
 
Last edited:
I’m thinking that New England could be in the tottering first steps of the second attempt to federate. It’d certainly add some drama to the region. It’d be interesting to see the interplay between New Englanders who want to unify to stand up to America and Giorsians seeking to stop it.
 
I’m thinking that New England could be in the tottering first steps of the second attempt to federate. It’d certainly add some drama to the region. It’d be interesting to see the interplay between New Englanders who want to unify to stand up to America and Giorsians seeking to stop it.
Would the New Englanders be federating to force the Americans out, or are they being consolidated under the Americans?
Once there exists a structure by which the New Englanders are led by a single entity, the Americans will attempt to hijack or coopt it.
 
Would the New Englanders be federating to force the Americans out, or are they being consolidated under the Americans?
Once there exists a structure by which the New Englanders are led by a single entity, the Americans will attempt to hijack or coopt it.
That's a good idea. I was thinking that they were trying to unify because they'd have more influence on America together than they would apart. Maybe it's a mutually beneficial kind of arrangement. I still would love to read about the "Second Commonwealth of New England".
 
Last edited:
Still think the elite of Jersey should speak Giorsian as the prestige language. Perhaps "Italian Conlang is too far, but I just aesthetically like them remaining distinct from the rest of the nobility of the Northwest.

Also, I don't think there were many major Catholic crusades in the rest of the Northeast - the Church integrated without a fight in most of the country, it was only in Jersey where it was tied to the mob that they remained adamant.
Well, as the only real Feudal state in the North East, with titles like Don, Capo, Soldato instead of Sheriff, Governor, Presiden, Mayor etc, they are warlords surrounded by merchants, priests and mayors. They are lancers and cataphracts surrounded by pikemen and militas. They probably dress differently, retaining dark woolen cloaks instead of bright robes that other nobles wear. Lancers/Soldato's have to be initiated with Mob traditions, join secret elite societies, maybe even have duels of honor too.

E.g. an knighting ceremony has a public portion and then a secret portion.

If you make them carry on mob traditions they will already be distinct from the rest of the Northeast.

The elite of Jersey can be look, and act differently, but the only thing I object to is the separate language for public use. The elites of Jersey communicate with other power in the region who speaks primarily Church English. If they didn't learn church english then they'd need a translator to speak to their priests, their merchants and emissaries from the USA.

Perhaps, they have a written code for use amongst themselves, a version of that exists already, but a separate spoken language that 10000-20000 people can speak at most seems unlikely to me.
 
Last edited:
I’ll back up that New Jersey outside of certain flairs like feudal titles is more or less as Americanized as the rest of east of the Mississippi and speaks English:

1) for all the Italian-American blood there was still a ton of Anglo settlement within it and likely still the definitive majority,

2) the Italian-American community in our time has fully Americanized in daily life even with pride in ethnic heritage, which includes speaking English,

3) they are surrounded by powerful, majority-English speaking nations and several of the biggest cities pre-and-post event, which will do wonders for cultural pressure,

4) and The Godfather films make a huge point of how the Coreolones specifically assimilate to American culture and the Don himself “believes in America”. I would imagine if THE mob story of all time pushed that and not even in a subtle manner, it would be remembered amongst the mobsters-come-feudal lords.

I have no doubt via the mob taking over, New Jersey has some unique flairs, but it’s still ultimately pretty Americanic in daily life for common and noble alike. It is to me still Jersey, not Giorsi.
 
Idea:

With all the universities and colleges in the northeast, New Englander nobility dress up in academic robes or something similar. If you can't be bright and frilly with all the money and prestige you have, why bother?

A couple of the New England Republics are probably descended from colleges banding together in the Regression.


Harvard


Yale


UVM


MIT
 
Certainly having what would likely be the finest universities in medieval America would be an advantage for New England. Their major weakness being political disunity.
 
Last edited:
So what's happening with Jersey?

My take:

The elites of Jersey are descended from the mob. They style themselves with Mob descended titles like Don, Capo, Soldato. However, they aren't speaking Italian. Even today, Italian Americans seldom speak Italian outside of elderly people who were first-gen immigrants or their eldest children. The courtly language will be Church English. Peasants will speak a descendant of the Jersey Accent.

Along the Atlantic Seaboard, where the USA holds the most sway, elites are speaking Church English because they need a way to communicate to each other. If we want to get funky, the Church might speak in a Transatlantic Accent, to really differentiate themselves from the peasantry, In this case, the courtly language of the Midwest would be general American because the Ohioan president wants to distinguish himself from Baltimore.
In another scenario, Church English might just sound like general American. In which case, Midwestern courtly languages could be General American or derived from an Ohioan dialect.
I don't think that the New Jersey nobility are going to be speaking Italian or an Italian descended language because
1. Noone speaks Italian in New Jersey nowadays so there is nowhere to pick it up from
2. Church English is prestigious and the nobility will want to attach themselves to that symbol of power
3. The Nobles want to sound "Noble" and not like peasants. And sounding noble means sounding different. Because of 1 and 2, the nobility would probably speak what other Nobles are speaking which would probably be Church English.
Maybe the people who created the Giorsian Conlang found a damaged English-to-Italian dictionary. So the prestige Giorsian dialect could basically be a mix of English, mispronounced Italian, and vaguely Italian gibberish to fill in the cracks.
Whether or not the Jerseyans are Catholic (I think it's realistic for there to be a Catholic plurality in the population at large, maybe more Non-Denom majority among the burghers and nobles) or outright speak Italian, the fact that they have basically the whole Delaware Valley makes them a sort of geographic unit with the potential for great wealth and interconnectedness, but also makes them a distinctive zone surrounded by foothills that fence them off from other river valleys and their people. So yeah it would definitely be a weird and distinctive place with a high quantity of Italian loanwords (maybe leavened with some Puerto Rican Spanish grammar?) in its High Vernacular (the most prestiguous vernacular dialect, not to be confused with Church English).

They might also possibly be just as capable of empathizing with the Quebeckers as the New Englanders on the topic of the Maine/Ontario Wars, maybe seeing the Quebeckers as a necessary thing that keeps New England from picking a fight with the Giorsians
Well, as the only real Feudal state in the North East, with titles like Don, Capo, Soldato instead of Sheriff, Governor, Presiden, Mayor etc, they are warlords surrounded by merchants, priests and mayors. They are lancers and cataphracts surrounded by pikemen and militas. They probably dress differently, retaining dark woolen cloaks instead of bright robes that other nobles wear. Lancers/Soldato's have to be initiated with Mob traditions, join secret elite societies, maybe even have duels of honor too.

E.g. an knighting ceremony has a public portion and then a secret portion.

If you make them carry on mob traditions they will already be distinct from the rest of the Northeast.

The elite of Jersey can be look, and act differently, but the only thing I object to is the separate language for public use. The elites of Jersey communicate with other power in the region who speaks primarily Church English. If they didn't learn church english then they'd need a translator to speak to their priests, their merchants and emissaries from the USA.

Perhaps, they have a written code for use amongst themselves, a version of that exists already, but a separate spoken language that 10000-20000 people can speak at most seems unlikely to me.
I’ll back up that New Jersey outside of certain flairs like feudal titles is more or less as Americanized as the rest of east of the Mississippi and speaks English:

1) for all the Italian-American blood there was still a ton of Anglo settlement within it and likely still the definitive majority,

2) the Italian-American community in our time has fully Americanized in daily life even with pride in ethnic heritage, which includes speaking English,

3) they are surrounded by powerful, majority-English speaking nations and several of the biggest cities pre-and-post event, which will do wonders for cultural pressure,

4) and The Godfather films make a huge point of how the Coreolones specifically assimilate to American culture and the Don himself “believes in America”. I would imagine if THE mob story of all time pushed that and not even in a subtle manner, it would be remembered amongst the mobsters-come-feudal lords.

I have no doubt via the mob taking over, New Jersey has some unique flairs, but it’s still ultimately pretty Americanic in daily life for common and noble alike. It is to me still Jersey, not Giorsi.
Alright, here's the compromise I'm going to make on Jersey:

Giorsian as a language exploded in the period between the Mob takeover and the conclusion of the Jersey Wars. Dialectical drift, combined an active desire by the Catholic and Mafia-ruled New Jersey to distinguish itself and its people from the rest of the Northeast lead to its development. Largely, it was just derived from New Jerseyan dialectical English - however, it does have a number of Italianate flairs and loanwords, somewhat more than would be absolutely realistic but certainly not to the point that it is the main component of the language. This was combined with a few loanwords from Church Latin and Puerto Rican Spanish.

Cultural dominance and ascendance by Italian Americans led to it becoming the common vernacular language, despite Italian Americans not being an absolute majority.. The most analagous event would be the widespread adoption of English by the Britons despite Anglo-Saxons likely never having formed an absolute majority. I'm aware that the dynamics of the birth of English are misty, same goes here.

The nobility and merchants were generally able to speak Church English, but still held their form of Giorsian as the prestige language. From the beginning of the Jersey Wars to tis conclusion, the prestige language shifted to Church English, but Giorsian remains "High Vernacular." Most nobles are able to understand it, and in fact freely mix Classical Giorsian with Church English both in their every day speech and in poetry/art. Some of the more 'mystical' Mafia ceremonies are conducted in Giorsian.

It's not totally realistic, but I think this is the best middle-ground between realism and aesthetic.
 
Alright, here's the compromise I'm going to make on Jersey:

Giorsian as a language exploded in the period between the Mob takeover and the conclusion of the Jersey Wars. Dialectical drift, combined an active desire by the Catholic and Mafia-ruled New Jersey to distinguish itself and its people from the rest of the Northeast lead to its development. Largely, it was just derived from New Jerseyan dialectical English - however, it does have a number of Italianate flairs and loanwords, somewhat more than would be absolutely realistic but certainly not to the point that it is the main component of the language. This was combined with a few loanwords from Church Latin and Puerto Rican Spanish.

Cultural dominance and ascendance by Italian Americans led to it becoming the common vernacular language, despite Italian Americans not being an absolute majority.. The most analagous event would be the widespread adoption of English by the Britons despite Anglo-Saxons likely never having formed an absolute majority. I'm aware that the dynamics of the birth of English are misty, same goes here.

The nobility and merchants were generally able to speak Church English, but still held their form of Giorsian as the prestige language. From the beginning of the Jersey Wars to tis conclusion, the prestige language shifted to Church English, but Giorsian remains "High Vernacular." Most nobles are able to understand it, and in fact freely mix Classical Giorsian with Church English both in their every day speech and in poetry/art. Some of the more 'mystical' Mafia ceremonies are conducted in Giorsian.

It's not totally realistic, but I think this is the best middle-ground between realism and aesthetic.
In a world with a Scientology-dominated California absolute realism is a bit absurd in itself. Better to make the absurdity seem natural rather than try to make it 100% true to life. It does seem plausible enough that a language formed from a "thickened" New Jersey dialect and a smattering of Italian and Spanish would form in New Jersey.

Makes me realize that New England's dialect probably has quite a bit of Irish in it. Or that there might be a bit of Chinese influence on whatever governments are in New York. At least some evolution that coincidentally resembles Imperial China to some degree.
 
Last edited:
Idle thought: Pilgrims are no doubt called "Tourists" in the Non-Denominational Church, and pilgramages borrow heavily from the culture of Roadside America.
 
Top