Mary of Burgundy born male?

Nova_Philomena

I've thought about this for a while, but I have been preoccupied with other TL's to focus on it, but now I've found time to discuss this.

What if Mary of Burgundy (Philip of Burgundy after his grandfather in this TL) was born a male instead of a girl? One thing that would obviously change is that their would be fewer succession complications which may mean they get to keep their Ducal Lands in France instead of forcefully retreating to the lower countries, as Philip IV of Burgundy would be the undisputed heir of his father. Heck, Charles may even be able to get his grand Kingdom wish through his son.

What else do you think would happen?
 

Janprimus

Nova_Philomena said:
I've thought about this for a while, but I have been preoccupied with other TL's to focus on it, but now I've found time to discuss this.

What if Mary of Burgundy (Philip of Burgundy after his grandfather in this TL) was born a male instead of a girl? One thing that would obviously change is that their would be fewer succession complications which may mean they get to keep their Ducal Lands in France instead of forcefully retreating to the lower countries, as Philip IV of Burgundy would be the undisputed heir of his father. Heck, Charles may even be able to get his grand Kingdom wish through his son.

What else do you think would happen?
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Firstly given the wealth of mainly Flanders, but also Brabant (Antwerpen and other places) and the strongly developing Holland, in other words they spend plenty of time in the Low Countries, since that's where their wealth came from, Burgundy, though certainly not poor, was certainly their most prestigious since it made them Premier Pair de France.
It will be easier to keep their purely dynastic French holdings, problems will arise over the vassals transferred to Burgundy in France. There the Somme towns and the county of Vermandois are likely to be returned to France, others have potential to stay Burgundian and that's a bit more than IOTL the county of St Pol, the county of Boulogne is very likely, but the county of Ponthieu isn't (the former two, have historic ties to Flanders and Artois, now Burgundian, the latter hasn't), similar logic will apply to territories closer to Burgundy proper.
 
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Orcot

Guessing Charles the bold, he would have taken his son with him to Nancy, I also doubt he would have married Margaret of York in this timeline. Makes you wonder who is third wife would have been? Could it be Margaret of Austria? (I'm very bad at this),afther 1464?
Her husband and later herself was elector of saxony (one of the votes he needed). She was also the sister of the holy roman emperor and had a daughter anna who was wed with the elector of bradenburg (since 1458)

This might have helped with his desire for a crown, also without Margaret of York his relation with england would be more open ended and without her he would have had to spend more time in his dukedom preventing him from doing some of his questionable decisions
 
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BlueFlowwer

Orcot said:
Guessing Charles the bold, he would have taken his son with him to Nancy,
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I think Philip would be left behind in the Low Countries while his father went to Nancy.
Orcot said:
I also doubt he would have married Margaret of York in this timeline. Makes you wonder who is third wife would have been? Could it be Margaret of Austria? (I'm very bad at this),afther 1464?
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Probably not Margaret of Austria. I have no idea to be honest.
Orcot said:
Her husband and later herself was elector of saxony (one of the votes he needed). She was also the sister of the holy roman emperor and had a daughter anna who was wed with the elector of bradenburg (since 1458)

This might have helped with his desire for a crown, also without Margaret of York his relation with england would be more open ended and without her he would have had to spend more time in his dukedom preventing him from doing some of his questionable decisions
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Or his son would have remained behind to govern. Plus he would have been married before 1477 as well as his father's only child.
 

isabella

Orcot said:
Guessing Charles the bold, he would have taken his son with him to Nancy, I also doubt he would have married Margaret of York in this timeline. Makes you wonder who is third wife would have been? Could it be Margaret of Austria? (I'm very bad at this),afther 1464?
Her husband and later herself was elector of saxony (one of the votes he needed). She was also the sister of the holy roman emperor and had a daughter anna who was wed with the elector of bradenburg (since 1458)

This might have helped with his desire for a crown, also without Margaret of York his relation with england would be more open ended and without her he would have had to spend more time in his dukedom preventing him from doing some of his questionable decisions
Click to expand...
Margaret of York would still be an useful match for both sides, as I doubt who Edward IV would be too keen to marry his eldest daughter to the heir of Burgundy
 

Liminia1

He married Margaret of York mainly for political purposes. He really wanted to reunite his alliance with England. I do however expect, that Louis XI would force a marriage between Philip IV of Burgundy and Anne of Beaujeu. Cause Louis the Spider gotta spider. He offered Champagne and Ponthieu for Anne to marry Charles, I expect nothing to change only the age gap isn't that big and it's Philip and Anne.
 

BlueFlowwer

Liminia1 said:
He married Margaret of York mainly for political purposes. He really wanted to reunite his alliance with England.
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Also for an heir as well, as he declared her a "fit for the creation of a Prince" before the estates. But given the political situation, he probably weds Margaret regardless.
Liminia1 said:
I do however expect, that Louis XI would force a marriage between Philip IV of Burgundy and Anne of Beaujeu. Cause Louis the Spider gotta spider. He offered Champagne and Ponthieu for Anne to marry Charles, I expect nothing to change only the age gap isn't that big and it's Philip and Anne.
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She's the only princess in his age group and I can see that happen. Anne of France, Duchess of Burgundy has a nice ring to it.
 

Orcot

isabella said:
Margaret of York would still be an useful match for both sides, as I doubt who Edward IV would be too keen to marry his eldest daughter to the heir of Burgundy
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I'm not sure, theirs a succesion crisis in england and burgundy never send his army in favor of the york side (might be a interinsting ATL). Ultimatly I imagen she did more harm then good, her sensible ruling offered Charles the time and money to piss everyone in europe off and she was the daughter of a family who ultimatly lost. (You can argue that it's not fair on the lady , but succession wise Charles would have done better with a horny trainwreck of a person that couldn't be left in charge for even a minute but came from a stable family).

Liminia1 said:
He married Margaret of York mainly for political purposes. He really wanted to reunite his alliance with England. I do however expect, that Louis XI would force a marriage between Philip IV of Burgundy and Anne of Beaujeu. Cause Louis the Spider gotta spider. He offered Champagne and Ponthieu for Anne to marry Charles, I expect nothing to change only the age gap isn't that big and it's Philip and Anne.
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Wouldn't he wait a little longer to see if there is a clear victor? Even if he wanted to reunite his allience with England why not wait a couple of years. No he was forced to marry her because she was young and was most likely to produce a male heir. That was the main reason.

Anne of france might be a other candidate during a period of depression to get peace with france (If she wasn't yet married to Nicholas duke of lorraine) with mary of burgundie not existing)

I agree with BlueFlowwer, Charles would have taken Champagne and Ponthieu ??does that include Reims??) I doubt he would get that
 
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Nova_Philomena

Orcot said:
I'm not sure, theirs a succesion crisis in england and burgundy never send his army in favor of the york side (might be a interinsting ATL). Ultimatly I imagen she did more harm then good, her sensible ruling offered Charles the time and money to piss everyone in europe off and she was the daughter of a family who ultimatly lost. (You can argue that it's not fair on the lady , but succession wise Charles would have done better with a horny trainwreck of a person that couldn't be left in charge for even a minute but came from a stable family).


Wouldn't he wait a little longer to see if there is a clear victor? Even if he wanted to reunite his allience with England why not wait a couple of years. No he was forced to marry her because she was young and was most likely to produce a male heir. That was the main reason.

Anne of france might be a other candidate during a period of depression to get peace with france (If she wasn't yet married to Nicholas duke of lorraine) with mary of burgundie not existing)

I agree with BlueFlowwer, Charles would have taken Champagne and Ponthieu ??does that include Reims??) I doubt he would get that
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Margaret of York could be viable despite the age-gap, though a surviving Ursula of York would be convenient, sad there isn't much Lancastrian Princesses, though I doubt Isabel of Portugal knew any of that betrothing her son to a Yorkist Princess OTL.

Why would the King of France give away numerous crown lands, I can see him throwing money but not counties.
 

Nova_Philomena

BlueFlowwer said:
I highly doubt Louis the Spider were sincere in giving away those lands.
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Charles the Bold isn't stupid and I doubt he'd fall for that in exchange for marrying his low-dowry daughter, the only reason I could see Charles the Bold accepting that for Philip is if he wanted his son to have somewhat of a chance in gaining the title King of France.
 

BlueFlowwer

Nova_Philomena said:
Charles the Bold isn't stupid and I doubt he'd fall for that in exchange for marrying his low-dowry daughter, the only reason I could see Charles the Bold accepting that for Philip is if he wanted his son to have somewhat of a chance in gaining the title King of France.
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I vote for Anne of Savoy for Philip. Savoy and Burgundy were old friends and it makes sense geographically.
 

Nova_Philomena

Dragonboy said:
Same, better not have the damn spider strech his ling legs into burgundy even more.

And btw girl any ideas for a bride for max?
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Joanna of Aragon
Margaret of Denmark
Anne of France?
Margaret of Lorraine
Joan of France

There are numerous Jagiellon Princesses running around, but I doubt Maximilian would find much value in an alliance with Poland.
 
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