License built copy?

SealTheRealDeal

Gone Fishin'
The Skoda power trains were not developed well. The armor was rivetted onto a frame and offered little advantage over the Fiat. Same for the suspension and track running gears. The Italian tanks were actually BETTER in that regard as were the main guns. There might be something in the Gubureaux machine guns which were better than the strange Breda M38s.
Interestingly, it seems Italy did acquire the licence to produce Gebauer guns, but only in 1943.

The T-21 had a bad power train? Interesting, I wasn't able to find anything on the Turans having breakdowns or other mechanical failures, but then again it's hard to find anything on them.
 
The Hungarians fixed the engine issues in the Turans with their own engines. Incidentally, since Fiat would be the probable tank builders for Italian licensed production, it would almost certainly be rivetted plate on frame and not welding as at Skoda.

A nation builds according to what it can do. Ansaldo was the welding outfit in Italy. They were building warships.
 
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Did the Germans just forget about Sturmtruppen tactics in WW2?
The idea of refighting WWI was anathema to them.
They forgot a lot of other things from WWI, like fighting in eastern Poland onwards had few railroads of a different gauge that they never had enough locomotives or rolling stock for even after regauged, it was a sea of mud twice a year, and cold as hell in between.
 

SealTheRealDeal

Gone Fishin'
The Hungarians fixed the engine issues in the Turans with their own engines. Incidentally, since Fiat would be the probable tank builders for Italian licensed production, it would almost certainly be rivetted plate on frame and not welding as at Skoda.
The Skoda ones were also of riveted construction.


A nation builds according to what it can do. Ansaldo was the welding outfit in Italy. They were building warships.
Later on they made tanks as well, but they seem to have adopted Fiat's production techniques verbatim.
 
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I was referring to the T-25, since that would be the one most likely to excite Italy's interest as a done deal through Berlin as the DB engines were.
 
Your third link mentions the T-21,T-22, and T23M.
Nowhere did it ever mention the T-15 or T-25.
Please review your sources before you use them.

I know there were a few (>50) made. But the main thing is that the Germans could just buy the blueprints from the Nationalists who have absolutely no use for such a rifle.
And by studying the blueprint they could draw some conclusions, like don't make the switching system for the

I've already covered this under U-boats, and in a thread about just what would be needed to improve the Weimar Navy. Being successful in a poorly run and equipped navy is not the metric. What are the metrics when compared to a great navy with its back to the wall and when it is fighting for its nation's life?
By that logic the North Vietnamese should have just surrendered because they were facing the world's largest and most powerful in a direct confrontation.
Guess what happened?
The US lost.

I made the calculations off the in-service type used in area air defense. So refute those calculations.
And so I will.
"A small production run of three Fw 187 A-0 followed in the summer of 1939, based upon the V3 prototype and using the Jumo 210G engines."
"An Industrie-Schutzstaffel (Industry-Defense Squadron) comprising the three Fw 187 A-0s was manned by Focke-Wulf test-pilots in defense of the factory in Bremen."
There were only 3 made, so I assume they were the same three aircraft.
Jumo 210G engines vs DB 601s.
Shriveled oranges vs plump juicy apples.
Check your sources.

If you raise an army of 300 divisions and your base COMPETENT fighting population is 14,000,000 in levee and 7,000,000 is skimmed off the top for the cadres and support I listed, and you need at least 3,000,000 to man the factories, you are left with what again? You have 180 effective combat days per man of the 4,000,000 left and you can guarantee 40% KILLED and MAIMED unfit to fight in the remainder as a result of expected combat past that5 180 days. On top of that you want to employ tactics and procedures now guaranteed to top 50% killed and maimed. You see the problem? You have to dip into the 8,000,000 physically barely able INCOMPETENTS you have to make up the infantry shortfalls and you have to adjust tactics for loss rates and for their lesser ability to improvise, adapt and overcome.
That is the Herrenamt's reality.
Which is why they should have started training women as soon as the Nazi came to power. Instead they removed women from position because of their retarded Nazi chauvinist ideology. But then they put those same women back in their old jobs because they suddenly realized that they had a massive shortage of trained personnel.
Ideally (for the Nazis), if the Nazis had a couple hundred more brain cells, they would started training women in various factory and manufacturing jobs ASAP to replace male workers who were bound for the front when the war starts.
Meanwhile, all those female Jews that the Nazis were going to keep in ghettos are now put to work in fields, while the males are used as laborers in construction projects and stuff like that, jobs that are impossible to sabotage. Unlike the absolutely idiotic OTL plan to use slave labor in factories, which was literally asking for sabotage and garbage quality products.
EDIT: I am not advocating slavery here. This is only a hypothetical solution to Nazi Germany's problems based on the behaviour of the Nazis in OTL.

And start training earlier for those so called incompetents under the guise of police units, border guards, or reservists. If you can teach a dog tricks, you can teach your so called incompetents Sturmtruppen tactics given enough time. I think a couple years should be long enough, just gotta drill the procedure into their heads.

It is why the Americans designed their own army the way it was, to spend bullets instead of men. Germans, in charge, were "stupid" about the numbers of human beings they needlessly murdered; because they knew these manpower truths from WWI lessons learned and they did it anyway.
America had a massive population, plenty of natural resources, and a massive industrial base.
Germany was automatically doomed when Hitler chose to draw the US into the conflict.
 
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Eh maybe, I was thinking of a pre/early war M13 substitute rather than a mid war P26 substitute.
Without welding Italian tanks will stay the shitty deathtraps they are.
The Czechs quickly figured out that welding was the way and did that ASAP.

Overall the Italian military was a rather funny joke in both World Wars with a few exceptions like the Arditi in WW1 and Decima Flottaglia MAS in WW2.
Folds like wet cardboard when confronted with serious opposition, Caporetto and the invasion of Greece.
 
Your third link mentions the T-21,T-22, and T23M.
Nowhere did it ever mention the T-15 or T-25.
Please review your sources before you use them.

Read it again.

I know there were a few (>50) made. But the main thing is that the Germans could just buy the blueprints from the Nationalists who have absolutely no use for such a rifle.
And by studying the blueprint they could draw some conclusions, like don't make the switching system for the

Not on point.

By that logic the North Vietnamese should have just surrendered because they were facing the world's largest and most powerful in a direct confrontation.
Guess what happened?
The US lost.

Completely off point. The only valid point is that if you are stupid, you lose and you deserve to lose.

And so I will.
"A small production run of three Fw 187 A-0 followed in the summer of 1939, based upon the V3 prototype and using the Jumo 210G engines."
"An Industrie-Schutzstaffel (Industry-Defense Squadron) comprising the three Fw 187 A-0s was manned by Focke-Wulf test-pilots in defense of the factory in Bremen."
There were only 3 made, so I assume they were the same three aircraft.
Jumo 210G engines vs DB 601s.
Shriveled oranges vs plump juicy apples.
Check your sources.
You did not run the numbers, so what was the point of this? (^^^)

Which is why they should have started training women as soon as the Nazi came to power. Instead they removed women from position because of their retarded Nazi chauvinist ideology. But then they put those same women back in their old jobs because they suddenly realized that they had a massive shortage of trained personnel.

Women would not have mattered.

Ideally, if the Nazis had a couple hundred more brain cells, they would started training women in various factory and manufacturing jobs ASAP to replace male workers who were bound for the front when the war starts.

Women would have not mattered.
Meanwhile, all those female Jews that the Nazis were going to keep in ghettos are now put to work in fields, while the males are used as laborers in construction projects and stuff like that, jobs that are impossible to sabotage. Unlike the absolutely idiotic OTL plan to use slave labor in factories, which was literally asking for sabotage and garbage quality products.

You know something? Advocating SLAVERY in any form is nothing I would advise as a position. Just saying...

And start training earlier for those so called incompetents under the guise of police units, border guards, or reservists. If you can teach a dog tricks, you can teach your so called incompetents Sturmtruppen tactics given enough time. I think a couple years should be long enough, just gotta drill the procedure into their heads.

But they DID use those unfit for military service cadres as concentration camp guards and internal security terror troops. And drills are no substitute for the ability to adapt, improvise or overcome.

America had a massive population, plenty of natural resources, and a massive industrial base.
Germany was automatically doomed when Hitler chose to draw the US into the conflict.

Stupid earns its deserved results.

McP.
 
The idea of refighting WWI was anathema to them.
They forgot a lot of other things from WWI, like fighting in eastern Poland onwards had few railroads of a different gauge that they never had enough locomotives or rolling stock for even after regauged, it was a sea of mud twice a year, and cold as hell in between.
If they wanted to avoid redoing WW1, they should have taken notes and learned lessons from WW1.
Sturmtruppen tactics, Russian winter, railroad gauge issue, the vastness of Russia, the tenacity of Russian troops (attack of the dead men).
I'm just going to say that the Germans got amnesia during the interwar period and the Nazis only made it worse with their rabid, animal-like screeching.
 
Read it again.
Your third link.
"They were not accepted for general service because of the problems I mentioned."
Has nothing to do with the T-15 or T-25.
The reason they weren't accepted is because of the stupid racial theory the Nazis had and the fact that they were completed too late to make a difference.
There was in fact an upgraded design of the T-15 with more sloped armor and provisions for a 47mm gun but it was made in 1943, at a time which it was already obsolete.

Not on point.
Avoid the point doesn't mean it ceases it exist.

Completely off point. The only valid point is that if you are stupid, you lose and you deserve to lose.
I was making an analogy, one you clearly did not understand.

You did not run the numbers, so what was the point of this? (^^^)
My point is that your numbers are skewed because you are not comparing the 2 aircraft from an equal playing field.

Women would not have mattered.
Women would have not mattered.
Women wouldn't have mattered? Are you joking here or something? Your saying that a few extra million trained women in the wartime workforce wouldn't have mattered.
You know something? Advocating SEXISM and MISOGYNY in any form is something I would never advise as a position. Just saying...

You know something? Advocating SLAVERY in any form is nothing I would advise as a position. Just saying...
I am not advocating slavery in any way. I am just simply making up a hypothetical solution to Nazi Germany's manpower problem based on the behaviour of Nazis in OTL (they can't suddenly become Notzis obviously). I am sorry if I didn't state the obvious fact that my above point is NOT AN ADVOCACY for slavery but rather a hypothetical solution for Nazi Germany's manpower problem based on their OTL behaviour.

But they DID use those unfit for military service cadres as concentration camp guards and internal security terror troops. And drills are no substitute for the ability to adapt, improvise or overcome.
It's more a matter of poor or incorrect training than your so called incompetence theory.
It's also the problem of accepting innovations, one that plague the conservative German officer corps.
For example, many German officers despised the Brandenburger Kommandos, the special forces unit run by the Abwehr and later the SS because they weren't "conventional" soldiers.
Those so called incompetents could have been valuable soldiers if more innovative training methods were employed earlier and to a longer extent.
 
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Which is why they should have started training women as soon as the Nazi came to power. Instead they removed women from position because of their retarded Nazi chauvinist ideology. But then they put those same women back in their old jobs because they suddenly realized that they had a massive shortage of trained personnel.
Ideally (for the Nazis), if the Nazis had a couple hundred more brain cells, they would started training women in various factory and manufacturing jobs ASAP to replace male workers who were bound for the front when the war starts.
This kind of goes against a major part of how the Germans looked at life though. (Note I say Germans not Nazi's as it long predates them) It's a German attitude that was mocked in the English speaking world even before WWI.


 
This kind of goes against a major part of how the Germans looked at life though. (Note I say Germans not Nazi's as it long predates them) It's a German attitude that was mocked in the English speaking world even before WWI.


Idiot chauvinists. (Yes I am a man and I support equality FYI)
Though I found this extremely funny, from your own source.
"During World War II in Germany, women eventually were put back in the factories because of the growing losses in the armed forces and the desperate lack of equipment on the front lines."
Change is gonna happen, whether you like it or not.
Either you use it to your advantage or it gonna slap you in the face.
 

SealTheRealDeal

Gone Fishin'
Without welding Italian tanks will stay the shitty deathtraps they are.
And yet even OTL's rather unimpressive selection of Italian tanks were competitive with contemporary British designs into 1942.

The Czechs quickly figured out that welding was the way and did that ASAP.
>the Czechs
>quickly
No, the Czechs didn't figure it out. The Germans told them they had no interest in any more riveted designs. And it wasn't until late 1941 that they built a welded hull tank.

Overall the Italian military was a rather funny joke in both World Wars with a few exceptions like the Arditi in WW1 and Decima Flottaglia MAS in WW2.
Folds like wet cardboard when confronted with serious opposition, Caporetto and the invasion of Greece.
As an Austriaboo I'm inclined to trash talk the Italians where ever possible, but I think you're underrating them by quite a bit.
 
Your third link.
"They were not accepted for general service because of the problems I mentioned."
Has nothing to do with the T-15 or T-25.

The reason they weren't accepted is because of the stupid racial theory the Nazis had and the fact that they were completed too late to make a difference.

There was in fact an upgraded design of the T-15 with more sloped armor and provisions for a 47mm gun but it was made in 1943, at a time which it was already obsolete.

Technical faults are not racial theories. Neither is failure to address technical faults in time.

Avoid the point doesn't mean it ceases it exist.

Non sequitur, since the argument was not addressed by your claim. I was entirely on point.

I was making an analogy, one you clearly did not understand.

I understood the invalid analogy just fine. It was an analogy that was invalid.

My point is that your numbers are skewed because you are not comparing the 2 aircraft from an equal playing field.

I'm comparing the FW187 to a true heavy fighter requirement, not what "you" assert.

Women wouldn't have mattered? Are you joking here or something? Your saying that a few extra million trained women in the wartime workforce wouldn't have mattered.

In the midst of a severe infantry shortage? Nope. Factory workers were called on to fill in line infantry after the manpower cohorts were used up. You might check into the German 1945 manpower crisis about that one.

You know something? Advocating SEXISM and MISOGYNY in any form is something I would never advise as a position. Just saying...

Red Herring. I am not the one advocating putting women into slave labor camps... or Jewish people in general. (You should carefully READ what you wrote.).

Meanwhile, all those female Jews that the Nazis were going to keep in ghettos are now put to work in fields, while the males are used as laborers in construction projects and stuff like that, jobs that are impossible to sabotage. Unlike the absolutely idiotic OTL plan to use slave labor in factories, which was literally asking for sabotage and garbage quality products.

Funny how that got back edited, once I pointed it out, isn't it?

I am not advocating slavery in any way. I am just simply making up a hypothetical solution to Nazi Germany's manpower problem based on the behaviour of Nazis in OTL (they can't suddenly become Notzis obviously). I am sorry if I didn't state the obvious fact that my above point is NOT AN ADVOCACY for slavery but rather a hypothetical solution for Nazi Germany's manpower problem based on their OTL behaviour.

Not buying it.

It's more a matter of poor or incorrect training than your so called incompetence theory.
It's also the problem of accepting innovations, one that plague the conservative German officer corps.
For example, many German officers despised the Brandenburger Kommandos, the special forces unit run by the Abwehr and later the SS because they weren't "conventional" soldiers.
Those so called incompetents could have been valuable soldiers if more innovative training methods were employed earlier and to a longer extent.

Not buying that either.
 
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And yet even OTL's rather unimpressive selection of Italian tanks were competitive with contemporary British designs into 1942.
30mm of front armor is getting one no where in WW2. The density and stubbornness of the Italian tank force is just riveting. x'D

>the Czechs
>quickly
No, the Czechs didn't figure it out. The Germans told them they had no interest in any more riveted designs. And it wasn't until late 1941 that they built a welded hull tank.
Oops. I forgot about that little detail. But still, their newer designs were decent.
One thing though. Do you think the T-25's autocannon system would have worked properly under combat conditions?
AFAIK the US had a 75mm autocannon used on their B-25 and it worked well enough.

As an Austriaboo I'm inclined to trash talk the Italians where ever possible, but I think you're underrating them by quite a bit.
Invasion of France= 2000+ frostbite victims. Looks like someone learned NOTHING from Alpine warfare in WW1. Only the Germany victory saved their skins.
Invasion of Greece=Greek counterattack drove the Italians back into Albania. Only the intervention of Germany in 1941 saved their skins.
Invasion of Egypt=UK counterattack drove the Italians back into Libya. Only the intervention of Germany in 1941 saved their skins.
I'm not even going any further. The further one goes, the more ridiculous it gets.
 
Technical faults are not racial theories. Neither is failure to address technical faults in time.
The final design of the T-15 and the T-25 had no technical faults. The only problem was that they were finished too late in the war to matter.

Non sequitur, since the argument was not addressed by your claim. I was entirely on point.
No, you're deliberately avoiding my point that the Germans obtaining General Liu rifles before WW2 could have lead them to develop the OTL Gewehr 43, which was made after lessons from the Gewehr 41 were learned. And the problems faced by the Gewehr 41 were similar to those faced by the General Liu rifle.

I understood the invalid analogy just fine. It was an analogy that was invalid.
Your point is that a good weapon in a shitty army would have matter, especially if was up against a superpower. This is the exact situation the North Viets were in, yet they turned the tables and drove the US outta 'Nam.

I'm comparing the FW187 to a true heavy fighter requirement, not what "you" assert.
And said requirement changes based on doctrine.
Goering's OTL "one plane does all" doctrine certainly didn't work because if it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In the midst of a severe infantry shortage? Nope. Factory workers were called on to fill in line infantry after the manpower cohorts were used up. You might check into the German 1945 manpower crisis about that one.
Did you even bother reading my point? I said that the Nazis should start training women to replace male workers ASAP, which means starting 1933.
6 years of training should be sufficient for women to replace men completely in many jobs.

Red Herring. I am not the one advocating putting women into slave labor camps... or Jewish people in general. (You should carefully READ what you wrote.
"Women would not have mattered." Are you arguing that a woman isn't capable of doing the same factory job as a man because they are a woman? Because that is what you are implying here.

Funny how that got back edited, once I pointed it out, isn't it?
I thought it was obvious that I was just making up a hypothetical solution for the Nazi manpower problem based on OTL facts, something that I assumed people would understand until someone displayed that they did not understand the word "Ideally". Because suddenly turning the Nazis into Notzis would have provoked a similar outcry, I decided to make the hypothetical solution more realistic, only to find that apparently someone doesn't understand that there are things which should be obvious or the word "Ideally". In that post, the word "ideally" meant the best possible scenario for the Nazis, which is obviously going to be a nightmarish hell for everyone they persecuted.

Not buying that either.
I'm not buying your so called incompetence theory either.
Just seems like a teleporting set of goalposts to me.
 
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The final design of the T-15 and the T-25 had no technical faults. The only problem was that they were finished too late in the war to matter.
That is a technical fault.


No, you're deliberately avoiding my point that the Germans obtaining General Liu rifles before WW2 could have lead them to develop the OTL Gewehr 43, which was made after lessons from the Gewehr 41 were learned. And the problems faced by the Gewehr 41 were similar to those faced by the General Liu rifle.
One piece of crap leads to another piece of crap? Okay.
Your point is that a good weapon in a shitty army would have matter, especially if was up against a superpower. This is the exact situation the North Viets were in, yet they turned the tables and drove the US outta 'Nam.
My point is that if you fight stupid and you lose, the weaponry does not matter. What was your point?

And said requirement changes based on doctrine.
Goering's OTL "one plane does all" doctrine certainly didn't work because if it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Goering can be blamed for a lot, but he had more than one plane doing the same job, so you kind of have an invalid thesis.

Did you even bother reading my point? I said that the Nazis should start training women to replace male workers ASAP, which means starting 1933.
6 years of training should be sufficient for women to replace men completely in many jobs.

Read it, did not care, because it meant nothing about the manpower crisis example.

"Women would not have mattered." Are you arguing that a woman isn't capable of doing the same factory job as a man because they are a woman?

Read that too and I do not care, because it has nothing to do with the manpower crisis. The Germans yanked their male factory workers out of the factories to fill their ranks.
I thought it was obvious that I was just making up a hypothetical solution for the Nazi manpower problem based on OTL facts, something that I assumed people would understand until someone displayed that they did not understand the word "Ideally". Because suddenly turning the Nazis into Notzis would have provoked a similar outcry, I decided to make the hypothetical solution more realistic, only to find that apparently someone doesn't understand that there are things which should be obvious or the word "Ideally".

Not buying it.

I'm not buying your so called incompetence theory either.
Just seems like a teleporting set of goalposts to me.

Since this needed; I will tell you plainly that I am not shifting goalposts, asserting red herrings or projecting my attitudes or attacking the man. I will let others decide who is doing what.

The theses you present in this thread, generally are not supported by the evidence you claim for the theses, and what you claim you never write is (^^^), well I quoted you, and I will leave it at that.

ENDIT.
 

SealTheRealDeal

Gone Fishin'
30mm of front armor is getting one no where in WW2. The density and stubbornness of the Italian tank force is just riveting. x'D
Neither was the 30-40mm common to most of Britain's early war cruiser tanks.

Oops. I forgot about that little detail. But still, their newer designs were decent.
Yes, with the caveat that none of them saw service giving little evidence or testimony to their performance and no indicator as to how suited to mass production they were.

One thing though. Do you think the T-25's autocannon system would have worked properly under combat conditions?
Seems like something that would have been ditched pretty quickly to put more tanks in the field faster.

AFAIK the US had a 75mm autocannon used on their B-25 and it worked well enough.
Thing with a plane is that you can generally assume that it'll be back at base with a dedicated crew of engineers pampering it before the end of the day (or before dawn breaks in the case of night operations). Tanks can be out on operation for a much longer time, and I'm not sure servicing the autoloader would be one of the simple things the crew could be expected to do on their own.

Invasion of France= 2000+ frostbite victims. Looks like someone learned NOTHING from Alpine warfare in WW1. Only the Germany victory saved their skins.
Less "no lessons learned" and more the army was told to invade France at the drop of a hat, despite the army's protests.

Invasion of Greece=Greek counterattack drove the Italians back into Albania. Only the intervention of Germany in 1941 saved their skins.
Another case of Mussolini forcing the army to do something with basically no preparation that the army really didn't want to do, and in this case the Italian Army couldn't adequately reinforce Albania after the war broke out because its attentions had to be on Africa. And Greek counter attack turned out to have been a terrible mistake as they needed to completely abandon their fortifications along the Bulgarian border to mount the offensive.

Invasion of Egypt=UK counterattack drove the Italians back into Libya. Only the intervention of Germany in 1941 saved their skins.
And the massive injection of reinforcements, especially armoured divisions, from mainland Italy. For every single one of Rommel's victories most of the axis soldiers and all of the logistical officers were Italian.

I'm not even going any further. The further one goes, the more ridiculous it gets.
On the contrary Italy did fairly well in 1941-42, and Italian soldiers performed well on both sides of the Italian campaign.
 
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