"If They Want It They Can Have It": Ulster's Tragedy.

Just the fact that they want to hold on to Londonderry (70%+ Catholic) and Omagh (also 70%+) illustrates just who much of a really (even for the UDA) REALLY bad Idea this was. The map doesn't have enough detail to be sure, but it looks line they actually used the River Foyle (which runs through the center of town) as the border.

Most of the city is actually on the far bank (if you're coming from the Northern Ireland side of the city). There's not much on the near bank - Drumahoe and New Buildings (if you want to count them as both being part of Stroke rather than separate villages as they really are) are both Prod so if you're going to redraw the borders it makes sense for them to stay in the UK. Oher than that, all you're leaving in the UK is Altnagelvin Hospital, the Waterside estate (majority Prod) and Ebrington Barracks (which the British are unlikely to want to lose as it's the only major barracks in the area and a Brigade HQ. From memory, once we closed Ebrington down in the 2000s the HQ moved to Ballykelly but the Army may not want all that hassle back then). That plan also keeps Strathfoyle (where the docks for Londonderry are) and the City of Derry airport (the old RAF airfield at Eglington) in the UK.
 
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CalBear

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Most of the city is actually on the far bank (if you're coming from the Northern Ireland side of the city). There's no much on the near bank - Drumahoe and New Buildings (if you want to count them as both being part of Stroke rather than separate villages as they really are) are both Prod so if you're going to redraw the borders it makes sense for them to stay in the UK. Oher than that, all you're leaving in the UK is Altnagelvin Hospital, the Waterside estate (majority Prod) and Ebrington Barracks (which the British are unlikely to want to lose as it's the only major barracks in the area and a Brigade HQ. From memory, once we closed Ebrington down in the 2000s the HQ moved to Ballykelly but the Army may not want all that hassle back then). That plan also keeps Strathfoyle (where the docks for Londonderry are) and the City of Derry airport (the old RAF airfield at Eglington) in the UK.
Your last couple sentences rather illustrate what I mentioned. The docks (income generation/jobs), airport (income generation/jobs), and a major hospital (that has one of only five specialized cancer treatment centers in the North) stay in the North while the population.

That sort of division is exactly what one would expect from the UDA in any sort of "reasonable agreement" that would be propsed if they were faced with a complete defeat (which is the only way they woulde cede an acre of clay). Not that I expect any of the flavors of the IRA to be any more reasonable (same coin, different faces). It brings to mind the "peace deals" the Japanese offered late in WW II, let us keep what we conquered in China, leave our military untouched, and we'll decide who, if anyone, deserves to be punished.
 
Your last couple sentences rather illustrate what I mentioned. The docks (income generation/jobs), airport (income generation/jobs), and a major hospital (that has one of only five specialized cancer treatment centers in the North) stay in the North while the population.

That sort of division is exactly what one would expect from the UDA in any sort of "reasonable agreement" that would be propsed if they were faced with a complete defeat (which is the only way they woulde cede an acre of clay). Not that I expect any of the flavors of the IRA to be any more reasonable (same coin, different faces). It brings to mind the "peace deals" the Japanese offered late in WW II, let us keep what we conquered in China, leave our military untouched, and we'll decide who, if anyone, deserves to be punished.
Any suggestion of a “repartitioning” of NI is always going to end in tears for everyone’s sake, but yeah the idea of keeping such a zone from the UDA was never going to work.
 
Your last couple sentences rather illustrate what I mentioned. The docks (income generation/jobs), airport (income generation/jobs), and a major hospital (that has one of only five specialized cancer treatment centers in the North) stay in the North while the population.

That sort of division is exactly what one would expect from the UDA in any sort of "reasonable agreement" that would be propsed if they were faced with a complete defeat (which is the only way they woulde cede an acre of clay). Not that I expect any of the flavors of the IRA to be any more reasonable (same coin, different faces). It brings to mind the "peace deals" the Japanese offered late in WW II, let us keep what we conquered in China, leave our military untouched, and we'll decide who, if anyone, deserves to be punished.

I doubt there'd be much income or jobs from the docks or the airport to be fair, the docks aren't massive and the airport was still actually a flying club in the 1970s (the local council bought it in 1978 to become the airport - I thought it was earlier than that). I think you'd still have working docks on the Republic side of the water too (by the Craigavon bridge if you're looking at a map, the second bridge if you're heading into the city from the sea), the wiki page isn't particularly clear about the timeline of the move out of the original city centre docks and up to the current location outside the city but both locations seem to have been running simultaneously for quite a while.

The hospital is an issue either way - it's basically in the middle of the Waterside so you either keep the hospital in it's "natural" home on the UK side of the new border (and hopefully agree a grown up solution to sharing access for people on both sides of the border as they do now) or you transfer a lot of newly angry Unionists over to the Republic.
 
Any suggestion of a “repartitioning” of NI is always going to end in tears for everyone’s sake, but yeah the idea of keeping such a zone from the UDA was never going to work.
My point was with the movement of people as a result of the UD,I the people may have been separated into different areas by the events into areas that look like what is in the maps.
The question is will people be able to go back to their homes or will what was an emergency response to the DUI become a long term defacto arrangement.
 
I doubt there'd be much income or jobs from the docks or the airport to be fair, the docks aren't massive and the airport was still actually a flying club in the 1970s (the local council bought it in 1978 to become the airport - I thought it was earlier than that). I think you'd still have working docks on the Republic side of the water too (by the Craigavon bridge if you're looking at a map, the second bridge if you're heading into the city from the sea), the wiki page isn't particularly clear about the timeline of the move out of the original city centre docks and up to the current location outside the city but both locations seem to have been running simultaneously for quite a while.

The hospital is an issue either way - it's basically in the middle of the Waterside so you either keep the hospital in it's "natural" home on the UK side of the new border (and hopefully agree a grown up solution to sharing access for people on both sides of the border as they do now) or you transfer a lot of newly angry Unionists over to the Republic.
In terms of the Port you also have the issue of the access channel being disputed between the Republic and the UK the channel is on the Irish side hence the Republic claims the ownership is split down the middle of the Lough, while the UK claims all of the Lough up to the shoreline.

As to the hospital as you say nowadays we have an agreement on usage and funding (think for example the Republic paid for the upgrades to the Cancer wing), but that's part of a much larger agreement with the NHS/HSE and NI and Republic, with more services being all island. That's not likely at this time in the TL.
 
My point was with the movement of people as a result of the UD,I the people may have been separated into different areas by the events into areas that look like what is in the maps.
The question is will people be able to go back to their homes or will what was an emergency response to the DUI become a long term defacto arrangement.
Or will the people want to even go back? With everything that's happen I don't doubt that many Nationalists won't have any faith in Northern Ireland or it's institutions after this, short of the UK basically ripping the status quo apart.
 
Or will the people want to even go back? With everything that's happen I don't doubt that many Nationalists won't have any faith in Northern Ireland or it's institutions after this, short of the UK basically ripping the status quo apart.
I suspect their homes will have been burnt out or unionists displaced from nationalist areas will have moved it to them.
So they may not have homes to go back to.
Much of the housing at the time was provided by the housing executive(council houses) so would only be rented by them.
It will take a long time to rebuild the burnt-out houses.
 
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Or will the people want to even go back? With everything that's happen I don't doubt that many Nationalists won't have any faith in Northern Ireland or it's institutions after this, short of the UK basically ripping the status quo apart.
Yeah, that's kinda the rub of it. I wouldn't wanna move back and risk a repeat a few years down the line. Much less given the discrimination and such they faced before, let alone the violence.
 
Yeah, that's kinda the rub of it. I wouldn't wanna move back and risk a repeat a few years down the line. Much less given the discrimination and such they faced before, let alone the violence.
Pretty much, I mean the UK is going to have to utterly gut the RUC, end the Special Branch, maybe disband the Ulster units (depending on what they've been up to during this time of course), root and branch reform of Stormont... Maybe having to get the Republic involved in someway (though this is more unlikely after Lynch's actions)...
NI is going to be an utter pain for London after this.
 

CalBear

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Yeah, that's kinda the rub of it. I wouldn't wanna move back and risk a repeat a few years down the line. Much less given the discrimination and such they faced before, let alone the violence.
Yep. Once bitten...

After WW II there was not a influx of Jews who had managed to escape the Reich who rushed back "home" (and in this scenario it seems that it was, at least, somewhere between Krystallnacht, which resulted in massive property destruction but relatively few actual deaths, and Rwanda 1994 on the open rampage scale).

From the perspective of ethnic cleansing this likely worked quite well, at least for those who don't wind up lynched or spending their declining years in the H Blocks.
 

CalBear

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Or at least pitchforks.
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You are right. Pitchforks, or at least some other pointy farm implements ,along with cricket bats and hurling sticks.
 
You are right. Pitchforks, or at least some other pointy farm implements ,along with cricket bats and hurling sticks.
No hurling sticks, American baseball bats were the sports gear of choice on both sides.
Only the official IRA used hurling sticks. Provos said it bought the national game in to disrupte and banned their use as weapons.
There were shops in Northern Ireland that sold baseball bats, but not baseballs or catch mitts.
No one in Northern Ireland played baseball. Rounders was played and was one of the sports played by the GAA.
 
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CalBear

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No hurling sticks, American baseball bats were the sports gear of choice on both sides.
Only the official IRA used hurling sticks. Provos said it bought the national game in to disrupt and banned their use as weapons.
There were shops in Northern Ireland that sold baseball bats, but not baseballs or catch mitts.
No one in Northern Ireland played baseball. Rounders was played and was one of the sports played by the GAA.
A baseball bat, especially an aluminum one, is an exceptionally nice bit of kit. Even as I type their is a really nice Little League one (its about a foot shorter than a full sized bat, makes it quite handy), beside the front door. Purely there in case I get attacked by a honey badger when I go out to get the mail, of course.
 
A baseball bat, especially an aluminum one, is an exceptionally nice bit of kit. Even as I type their is a really nice Little League one (its about a foot shorter than a full sized bat, makes it quite handy), beside the front door. Purely there in case I get attacked by a honey badger when I go out to get the mail, of course.
Put some holes in it and 6-inch nails.
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Sports fans Northern Ireland style.
 
Long term impact.
How does the UDI affect Great Britians long term intentions about keeping Northern Ireland as part of the union?
Will it lead people in Great Britain to wonder why are they spending so much to keep the place if even the unionist rebel.
I suspect that Westminister might start planning an exit strategy.
In the good old days, they could have sent them to new south wales or some other distant part of the empire.;);)
 
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Will it lead people in Great Britain to wonder why are they spending so much to keep the place if even the unionist rebel.

I can't answer for how the Great British public of the period or the Powers That Be in Westminster might react. I'll leave that to others more qualified than myself.

I can answer for what the British troops of the period thought.

They'd gone in to protect the Catholic minority; pretty much right from the start, the Catholic minority reacted as though it was an invading army, for all that the troops were protecting them. (It was commonplace for troops to insert themselves between Unionist rowdies and Nationalist protectees, and for bricks and bottles filled with urine to be thrown at the troops from the Nationalist side. Troops quickly learned to face in both directions). The Unionist troublemakers disliked the presence of the troops because this stopped them driving out the Nationalists.

Very quickly, the troops found themselves basically keeping Orange and Green maniacs apart from each other, and being vilified for it from both Orange and Green communities. The average soldier would have quite cheerfully left the province to its own devices. It was, as we saw it, an unpleasant little hell-hole with no redeeming features, where the biggest industry was sitting around collecting the dole and demonising the other side.
 
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