Henry Holland has a son

The Professor

The Professor

Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter, had a plausible claim to the English throne being a local legitimate descendant of John of Gaunt. However he was considered such a douche by both Yorkists and Lancastrians that noone seriously raised his claim. And he eventually "drowned" in 1475.
He had a sole daughter by his estranged wife Anne of York c1461.

But what if that daughter was a son?
How does this effect the reign of Edward IV and perhaps of Richard of Gloucester?
What about the Tudors and Stafford/Buckingham?
What possibilities do you see?
 

glore7

As long as his son isn't a complete douche like his father I suspect that instead of Henry Tudor, the Lancastrians will rally around him as the potential Lancastrian claimant to the throne, as he has a far better claim then Henry Tudor. This is also further helped by the fact that his mother is Anne of York meaning he has undeniably legitimate Yorkist blood. I think considerably more dissatified Yorkists would defect from Richard III to Henry Holland's son as a result of this.

If Henry Holland's son does defeat Richard III and become King, he will have some differenct challenges that Henry Tudor didn't face. Henry Holland's son won't be able to marry Elizabeth of York, meaning that whoever Elizabeth of York or her various sisters marry will have a strong claim to the throne of England which he will have to deal with. Presuming Edward of Warwick is captured, I suspect he will be executed like OTL eventually.

I'm not sure how this will effect what the De La Poles do and their actions, I suspect they would probably still rebel.

Overall it would be extremely interesting to see a Holland ruled England, and how this would effect things such as the reformation going forwards.
 

VVD0D95

glore7 said:
As long as his son isn't a complete douche like his father I suspect that instead of Henry Tudor, the Lancastrians will rally around him as the potential Lancastrian claimant to the throne, as he has a far better claim then Henry Tudor. This is also further helped by the fact that his mother is Anne of York meaning he has undeniably legitimate Yorkist blood. I think considerably more dissatified Yorkists would defect from Richard III to Henry Holland's son as a result of this.

If Henry Holland's son does defeat Richard III and become King, he will have some differenct challenges that Henry Tudor didn't face. Henry Holland's son won't be able to marry Elizabeth of York, meaning that whoever Elizabeth of York or her various sisters marry will have a strong claim to the throne of England which he will have to deal with. Presuming Edward of Warwick is captured, I suspect he will be executed like OTL eventually.

I'm not sure how this will effect what the De La Poles do and their actions, I suspect they would probably still rebel.

Overall it would be extremely interesting to see a Holland ruled England, and how this would effect things such as the reformation going forwards.
Click to expand...
Why would t the son be able to marry Elizabeth of York? If the son is takin the daughters place in 1461, then he’s still of the right age to marry her no?
 

glore7

VVD0D95 said:
Why would t the son be able to marry Elizabeth of York? If the son is takin the daughters place in 1461, then he’s still of the right age to marry her no?
Click to expand...

Because Henry Holland's sons mother is Edward IV's sister so I'm pretty sure they won't be able to get Papal dispensation for a potential marriage as this in the age before the Habsurgs and those marriages had become commonplace.
 

VVD0D95

glore7 said:
Because Henry Holland's sons mother is Edward IV's sister so I'm pretty sure they won't be able to get Papal dispensation for a potential marriage as this in the age before the Habsurgs and those marriages had become commonplace.
Click to expand...
Cousin marriages still happened though... hell Richard of Gloucester and Anne Neville were first cousins and they got the dispensation and married as did George abd Isabel
 
The Professor

The Professor

Would Richard of Gloucester still be able to become King here?

And if Ned is raising John wouldn't he be married off to Catherine Woodville instead of Stafford?
 

Tyler96

I've had a bit of a look at Henry Holland for an upcoming article as part of my War of the Roses series on the SLP blog.

I think some permutation of Exeter Jnr gets involved in the rebellion against Richard in 1483, goes into exile, plots with the other anti-Richard exiles and potentially the Lancastrian dregs still roaming around, and launches an invasion in a few years when Richard's regime is looking shaking, is broadly plausible.

If we're going with the 1461 birthdate then he'd be 22, possibly still unmarried, and can pledge to marry Elizabeth of York and unite the claims. I don't think the first cousin thing would be too big an impediment, unless the Pope has some reason to be obstructionary.

A Holland-centric invasion probably goes through the West Country, given that was the centre of Holland influence, so that'd effect the geography of any campaign against Richard, probably having both advantages and disadvantages compared to the Tudor route through Wales.

The important question is probably how the existence of Exeter Jnr as a plausible (arguably pre-eminent) Lancastrian claimant effects the behaviour of both Marg Beaufort (and by extension the Tudors) and Buckingham in 1483. This goes into the murky motives of Buckingham- if he was aiming at the throne, would he still entertain that delusion if there's a legitimate Lancastrian candidate in England? If his motive was ''this rebellion looks serious, Richard's doomed, I'm jumping off a sinking ship'' then he might behave as OTL. As for Marg, restoration of Henry Tudor as Earl of Richmond would be compatible with a King Exeter, is that enough for her to risk her head?

Arguably if things go right Exeter might be able to find his way to the throne with the Rebellion in 1483, being a potentially more powerful rallying figure than the exiled Tudor and the uninspiring dolt Buckingham, but if he messes up he could also lose his head. Alternately, if he stays loyal to his uncle- you could sprinkle in some dislike for the Woodvilles or some territorial rivalry with Dorset (if Dorset still marries Cecily Bonville he and Exeter would have interests in the same area?)- he might also potentially be in the running to be named heir after Edward of Middleham dies.
 

VVD0D95

Tyler96 said:
I've had a bit of a look at Henry Holland for an upcoming article as part of my War of the Roses series on the SLP blog.

I think some permutation of Exeter Jnr gets involved in the rebellion against Richard in 1483, goes into exile, plots with the other anti-Richard exiles and potentially the Lancastrian dregs still roaming around, and launches an invasion in a few years when Richard's regime is looking shaking, is broadly plausible.

If we're going with the 1461 birthdate then he'd be 22, possibly still unmarried, and can pledge to marry Elizabeth of York and unite the claims. I don't think the first cousin thing would be too big an impediment, unless the Pope has some reason to be obstructionary.

A Holland-centric invasion probably goes through the West Country, given that was the centre of Holland influence, so that'd effect the geography of any campaign against Richard, probably having both advantages and disadvantages compared to the Tudor route through Wales.

The important question is probably how the existence of Exeter Jnr as a plausible (arguably pre-eminent) Lancastrian claimant effects the behaviour of both Marg Beaufort (and by extension the Tudors) and Buckingham in 1483. This goes into the murky motives of Buckingham- if he was aiming at the throne, would he still entertain that delusion if there's a legitimate Lancastrian candidate in England? If his motive was ''this rebellion looks serious, Richard's doomed, I'm jumping off a sinking ship'' then he might behave as OTL. As for Marg, restoration of Henry Tudor as Earl of Richmond would be compatible with a King Exeter, is that enough for her to risk her head?

Arguably if things go right Exeter might be able to find his way to the throne with the Rebellion in 1483, being a potentially more powerful rallying figure than the exiled Tudor and the uninspiring dolt Buckingham, but if he messes up he could also lose his head. Alternately, if he stays loyal to his uncle- you could sprinkle in some dislike for the Woodvilles or some territorial rivalry with Dorset (if Dorset still marries Cecily Bonville he and Exeter would have interests in the same area?)- he might also potentially be in the running to be named heir after Edward of Middleham dies.
Click to expand...
Given Anne was Edward abd Richards eldest sister it does make sense that Holland would be considered Richards heir after middleman dies no? If so could we see Holland helping to put down Buckingham’s aborted uprising?
 

Tyler96

VVD0D95 said:
Given Anne was Edward abd Richards eldest sister it does make sense that Holland would be considered Richards heir after middleman dies no? If so could we see Holland helping to put down Buckingham’s aborted uprising?
Click to expand...

Yeah, assuming you buy the ''Clarence's attainder rules out Warwick'' argument he'd be the heir by primogeniture. There's a question as to whether Richard might be wary to promote him too much given he possesses his own claim and independent powerbase (though not a huge one, given the Hollands were always rather poor), compared to Lincoln who was more dependent on Richard.

If he does help put down Bucky that might help him get in Richard's good books. Things might be awkward if he's close with his step-dad Thomas St Leger, who was executed for his part in the Rebellion IOTL.
 

VVD0D95

Tyler96 said:
Yeah, assuming you buy the ''Clarence's attainder rules out Warwick'' argument he'd be the heir by primogeniture. There's a question as to whether Richard might be wary to promote him too much given he possesses his own claim and independent powerbase (though not a huge one, given the Hollands were always rather poor), compared to Lincoln who was more dependent on Richard.

If he does help put down Bucky that might help him get in Richard's good books. Things might be awkward if he's close with his step-dad Thomas St Leger, who was executed for his part in the Rebellion IOTL.
Click to expand...
This is very true, I assume Anne abd St legera marriage was a love marriage then? Thus unlikely to be butterflies then presence of Edward Holland?
 

Tyler96

VVD0D95 said:
This is very true, I assume Anne abd St legera marriage was a love marriage then? Thus unlikely to be butterflies then presence of Edward Holland?
Click to expand...

There's speculation they were lovers before they married, and he was of relatively humble station.

From St Leger's POV, the existence of Edward Holland means his (hypothetical) kids won't get the whole Exeter inheritance, so if he's mercenary-minded that might change things (can you read anything into him and Anne of York only marrying in 1474, the year Anne Holland died?)- but I'm sure he'd still expect to do well out of becoming the king's brother-in-law.
 

VVD0D95

Tyler96 said:
There's speculation they were lovers before they married, and he was of relatively humble station.

From St Leger's POV, the existence of Edward Holland means his (hypothetical) kids won't get the whole Exeter inheritance, so if he's mercenary-minded that might change things (can you read anything into him and Anne of York only marrying in 1474, the year Anne Holland died?)- but I'm sure he'd still expect to do well out of becoming the king's brother-in-law.
Click to expand...

Hmm this is true, I do imagine that if Edward Holland is around, he'd be getting the whole of the Exeter inheritance no? I mean Edward IV was shady, but was he that shady?
 

Tyler96

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm this is true, I do imagine that if Edward Holland is around, he'd be getting the whole of the Exeter inheritance no? I mean Edward IV was shady, but was he that shady?
Click to expand...

I mean, Edward IV's shady dealing in this matter IOTL was granting the entire Exeter inheritance to Anne (and her heirs)- so, as Anne's eldest son, Edward Holland would inherit everything regardless of his father's attainder, I think?

And I don't see Edward having any especial motive for screwing his nephew out of the inheritance?
 

VVD0D95

Tyler96 said:
I mean, Edward IV's shady dealing in this matter IOTL was granting the entire Exeter inheritance to Anne (and her heirs)- so, as Anne's eldest son, Edward Holland would inherit everything regardless of his father's attainder, I think?

And I don't see Edward having any especial motive for screwing his nephew out of the inheritance?
Click to expand...

This is very true, especially if his dad still dies as he did otl, thus meaning the lad is probably going to be a fixture at court.
 

Tyler96

VVD0D95 said:
This is very true, especially if his dad still dies as he did otl, thus meaning the lad is probably going to be a fixture at court.
Click to expand...

Who'd be raising him?

Even if we assume he initially stays in his mother's custody, after her death in 1476 (assuming IOTL) a few years of wardship would be required.
 

VVD0D95

Tyler96 said:
Who'd be raising him?

Even if we assume he initially stays in his mother's custody, after her death in 1476 (assuming IOTL) a few years of wardship would be required.
Click to expand...

The King could probably bring him to court no? Or if not, maybe give him to Richard, or maybe the Wydevilles?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top