Habsburg Lorraine

[Jan Olbracht]

Title lacks hyphen, but that is not mistake, as POD is not about Das Haus Habsburg-Lothringen.

IOTL Emperor Frederick III seeks for wife with connections to Kingdom of Naples (IDK why, perhaps to strenghten his claim to Hungary?) and before he married Eleanor of Portugal (niece of Alfonso V of Aragon, who was also King of Naples) he also considered marriage with daughter of Alfonso's rival, Rene of Anjou (Yolande or Margaret), so if René is victorious (perhaps to more disastrous for Aragonese side Battle of Ponza) he is likely so stick to that original plan (perhaps Yolande is widowed early and marries HRE Frederick as second husband around 1450). Assume, that Nicholas dies like IOTL (yes, yes, I know-dense butterfly net required) that makes Holy Roman Empress his successor. Vaudemonts are screwed-they could still present their claim, but Lorraine is part of HRE and their rival would be Emperor himself. So in 1473 Lorraine is inherited by Habsburgs, what happens then? What would relations between Habsburg Lorraine and Burgundy look like? I guess Charles the Bold would not be mad enough to try to conquer it? Not that Habsburgs were invincible (Matthias Corvinus proved that they were not) but having both King of France and Holy Roman Emperor as enemies certainly would not be wise.

 

[Clandango]

My, hard to find good maps of the period. Perhaps something for with the Burgundy Wars? Apparently some involved wars agains the Swiss, and Burgundy and the Hasburgs could... Unify to fight against them? No, that would be really reaching it. Who do you see as governing Lorraine here? So often the Austrian Habsburgs split then up with de facto viceroys, so Lorraine may go with the conglomeration that was Further Austria. If the Emperor does marry Yolande, does he also use it for claiming all her land and claims? This means the Duchy of Anju and the County of Provence. Which was a part of the old Duchy of Burgundy, wasn’t it? No wait, that was around Switzerland. ...

Burgundian Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jan Olbracht]

My, hard to find good maps of the period. Perhaps something for with the Burgundy Wars? Apparently some involved wars agains the Swiss, and Burgundy and the Hasburgs could... Unify to fight against them? No, that would be really reaching it. Who do you see as governing Lorraine here? So often the Austrian Habsburgs split then up with de facto viceroys, so Lorraine may go with the conglomeration that was Further Austria. If the Emperor does marry Yolande, does he also use it for claiming all her land and claims? This means the Duchy of Anju and the County of Provence. Which was a part of the old Duchy of Burgundy, wasn’t it? No wait, that was around Switzerland. ...

Burgundian Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By 1473 HRE Frederick may have adult son by Yolande, whom he could send to Lorraine. Things would be even more interesting if Good King René have no other legitimate descendants other than Habsburg grandchildren (which is not given, as René as rulling King of Naples may remarry differently).

 

[CaptainShadow]

What would relations between Habsburg Lorraine and Burgundy look like?

I think Charlie would betroth his daughter to the alt heir of Frederick ASAP, and keep it at that. Unless he gets a son, in which case he probably goes on an enemy making spree like a mad lad.

My, hard to find good maps of the period

The Holy Roman Empire 1477 - The Map Archive

In 1477 the Holy Roman Empire, a multi-ethnic jigsaw of principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities and other domains within central Europe, was under the rule of the Habsburg Emperor Frederick III, and was poised on the brink of a conflict with Hungary.

www.themaparchive.com

File:Map France 1477-fr.svg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

Might come in handy.

Apparently some involved wars agains the Swiss, and Burgundy and the Hasburgs could... Unify to fight against them? No, that would be really reaching it.

Idt so, getting the Swiss under Habsburg control would likely be appealing in such an ATL coz that way all of their territories would be connected.

If the Emperor does marry Yolande, does he also use it for claiming all her land and claims? This means the Duchy of Anju and the County of Provence.

Provence possibly, Anjou is ehhh at best.

 

[UnaiB]

@curlyhairedhippie

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Charlie would betroth his daughter to the alt heir of Frederick ASAP, and keep it at that. Unless he gets a son, in which case he probably goes on an enemy making spree like a mad lad.

The Holy Roman Empire 1477 - The Map Archive

In 1477 the Holy Roman Empire, a multi-ethnic jigsaw of principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities and other domains within central Europe, was under the rule of the Habsburg Emperor Frederick III, and was poised on the brink of a conflict with Hungary.

www.themaparchive.com

File:Map France 1477-fr.svg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

Might come in handy.

Idt so, getting the Swiss under Habsburg control would likely be appealing in such an ATL coz that way all of their territories would be connected.

Provence possibly, Anjou is ehhh at best.

no, Rene is loyal to the Valois.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think it sounds plausible. After all, Friedrich and Marguerite d'Anjou were actually engaged for a brief spell OTL (1430s, I believe, since the match was engineered by Yolande of Aragon).

Some of what has rooted her to Anjou has been the fact that marriage negotiations were considered by Yolande, but much of that was connected to Rene’s captivity, in which Yolande was closely involved. The negotiations that weren’t – the future Frederick III, Holy Roman Emperor, for example – could also have been managed by Yolande without necessarily indicating Marguerite was under her roof.

Oh, the possibilities of such a match. King Sleepyhead married to the "Bad Queen"... @RedKing

 

[RedKing]

I think it sounds plausible. After all, Friedrich and Marguerite d'Anjou were actually engaged for a brief spell OTL (1430s, I believe, since the match was engineered by Yolande of Aragon).

They were? I have heard she was floated around as a spouse for Friedrich, but never that they were actually betrothed. That would have been one hell of a match though.

Oh, the possibilities of such a match. King Sleepyhead married to the "Bad Queen"... @RedKing

I have no clue how that match would go but considering Frederick liked waiting things out to see how the situation evolved, I could see Margaret getting into arguments with Frederick about what they should be doing. Especially since Frederick probably won't be a pushover like Henry VI.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I think it sounds plausible. After all, Friedrich and Marguerite d'Anjou were actually engaged for a brief spell OTL (1430s, I believe, since the match was engineered by Yolande of Aragon).

Oh, the possibilities of such a match. King Sleepyhead married to the "Bad Queen"... @RedKing

I'm more for Yolande to keep things in England more or less like IOTL, but...

Imagine, how would relations between Charles the Bold and Friedrich looks like, when former is married to Yorkist Princess and the latter is Edward of Westminster's uncle by marriage?

 

[Clandango]

Provence possibly, Anjou is ehhh at best.

I was thinking more of diplomatic squabbles, but a claim over Anjou would probably not come into claim outside of appearing on a list of dozens of titles, much like how Czar Nicholas II had Heir of Norway as one of his titles. Maybe they try taking the claim of being King of Jerusalem from Naples. It was an old claim the first Angevin King bought from someone, but the Pope was all for it, so what can you do? Might actually be interesting, having another Archbishop somewhere who is seen as the head of the church inside the Holy Land, like how each of the ecclesial Electors in the HRE were Arch-Chancellors for Burgundy, Italy, and Germany. Only the one related to Germany seemed to have much power involving that job.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was thinking more of diplomatic squabbles, but a claim over Anjou would probably not come into claim outside of appearing on a list of dozens of titles, much like how Czar Nicholas II had Heir of Norway as one of his titles. Maybe they try taking the claim of being King of Jerusalem from Naples. It was an old claim the first Angevin King bought from someone, but the Pope was all for it, so what can you do? Might actually be interesting, having another Archbishop somewhere who is seen as the head of the church inside the Holy Land, like how each of the ecclesial Electors in the HRE were Arch-Chancellors for Burgundy, Italy, and Germany. Only the one related to Germany seemed to have much power involving that job.

Lorraine already had their own Jerusalemite claim via Godfrey of Bouillon IIRC, so there'd be no reason to take that from Naples.

 

[Janprimus]

I'm more for Yolande to keep things in England more or less like IOTL, but...

Imagine, how would relations between Charles the Bold and Friedrich looks like, when former is married to Yorkist Princess and the latter is Edward of Westminster's uncle by marriage?

Given the patient nature of Friedrich, not much different than IOTL. "Austria Est Imperare Orbi Universo" is paramount, he's practically enough to ignore those English matters. Now Charles/Karel wanting to take over Lorraine, is a very different matter.
OTOH a match between TTL Maximilian of Austria and TTL Mary of Burgundy is still very much in both interests. In the end the interests of the house of Austria (Habsburg) and the Empire will trump those of English relatives. And the fact of the matter is that imperial fiefs, like Brabant, Holland, Luxemburg, Hainaut, Limburg, Gelre (Guelders), Zeeland, Franch Comté etc. are way too valuable. So any change to tie those back closer to the Empire and to combine the Imperial pedigree of the Habsburg with the wealth of Valois-Burgundy, won't be denied.
Of course, the patient and sly Friedrich will still make it so, that the rash Charles will be forced into a deal not too favourable for him.

 

[Janprimus]

Lorraine already had their own Jerusalemite claim via Godfrey of Bouillon IIRC, so there'd be no reason to take that from Naples.

Which is a bit odd, since Godfried was duke of Lower Lorraine, not Upper Lorraine. And good old Godfried did not have any heirs, which didn't help the position of the duke of Lower Lorraine, in fact he sold quite some bit to the church to finance his Crusade. The position duke of Lower Lorraine, which Brabant-Leuven and Limburg fought over, was not the same one, as the one before Godfried.

 

[Monter]

The Jerusalemite claim comes from Naples, or rather Sicily through Frederick II, Charles of Anjou appropriated his non-Imperial titles to legitimize his rule.