Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

Well, they didn't got out that much worse than OTL at least... Question though, what methods did the modern-day scholars use to disprove the Nationalist propaganda? The last section feels a little empty without mention of them.

Given the mention of "National Autonomous University of Mexico and the University of Buenos Aires" I wonder if we can infer that those countries remain politically sympathetic so socialism even after the Red Dawn?
 
Well, they didn't got out that much worse than OTL at least... Question though, what methods did the modern-day scholars use to disprove the Nationalist propaganda? The last section feels a little empty without mention of them.

Given the mention of "National Autonomous University of Mexico and the University of Buenos Aires" I wonder if we can infer that those countries remain politically sympathetic so socialism even after the Red Dawn?
Statistical Analysis generally speaking, interview a bunch of people, look at diaries and letters, correlation of articles about the discovery of wartime mass graves and deploying some correction factors to try and account for bias
 
5-24 Assassinations, Into the Abyss
…The death of General Jose Sanjurjo y Sacanell on the very night of the war’s end left General Francisco Franco in charge of the new Spanish government. As one of his first actions he arranged for Sanjurjo to receive a heroes funeral at the cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, the holiest site in Spain, dedicated to Saint James the Moor-Slayer…

…As the funeral party processed in a man who had entered disguised as one of the violists in the orchestra opened his case and pulled out a Thompson Submachine Gun that had been concealed American Gangland style. The Assassin managed to empty 37 of the 50 rounds in the Thompson’s drum magazine before he was wrestled to the ground. Six of those bullets struck General Franco. Franco was not killed outright but passed away two days later after heroic efforts by Spanish surgeons failed to save him…

…The Assassin one […] was a known member of the Spanish Socialist Party whose family had fled into exile in France during the fall of Catalonia. This led to the official Spanish government explanation that this was a communist influenced plot to get some measure of revenge…

…General Mola was a natural suspect for the assassination, given that he ended up inheriting power from Franco. Extensive investigation has not shown any connection between Mola and the plot…

…The murder weapon in question was part of a consignment of a hundred ordered by a front company for the Union Corse. Another seven weapons of this consignment were later found in the possession of the Italain Military Information Service. This is perhaps the strongest circumstantial evidence in the case and it lends credence to the theory that Franco was assassinated by Sanna to place the more pliable Mola in charge of Spain. Mola had a much weaker base of power and was forced to rely on the strongly Fascist influenced Falangist Party to a far greater degree than Franco would have. Furthermore Sanna had a strong intelligence network in Southern France, one perfectly capable of threatening the assassin’s family as a means of coercion…

-Excerpt from A History of Assassination, American Youth Press, New York, 2001



…On August 1st 1938 a train derailed in Manchuria, in particular one carrying the first load of crude oil from the newly opened Daqing Oil Field. Suspecting sabotage the local IJA garrison quickly rounded up a dozen men who had been found with heavy work tools. After a rapid interrogation the men confessed to being paid by some of their relatives in the KMT to sabotage the railroad.

In fact no such payment had been occurred. The men had been kidnapped days earlier precisely because of their relations. A clique of two captains, three majors and a lieutenant colonel had arranged the kidnapping and sabotage. They felt that the current Japanese government policy was too conservative on China and that in the model of the Kodoha movement they would have to lead the government into it.

A Japanese infantry battalion stationed on the border then advanced to a neighboring village where the so called “paymaster” of the operation was living. The Japanese commander then demanded the extradition of the so called paymaster. After being refused he sent some of his men in to grab the man to take back to Manchuria for a trial by the puppet Beiyang government. On the way out however a party of KMT soldiers arrived and got in a firefight with the Japanese rearguard.

The commander on the scene then requested reinforcements from the Kwangtung Army high command. The Kwangtung Army higher ups were well aware of what was going on, however they agreed with the motivations of the clique. They thought that the government was too timid in dealing with the Chinese and while not willing to start things themselves were willing to pour fuel on the flames someone else had lit. In their view the Chinese were getting stronger faster than the Japanese, it was better that a war start on their terms now rather than later.

Large scale reinforcements immediately began to pour in from both sides and a series of battles were fought along the frontier as the situation escalated. In the view of the government in Tokyo this was a disaster, while not pacifists by any means the current government wanted to wait until 1942 to start a war with China, at which point a major military modernization program would be complete. At the same time they could not back down, doing so would see the Army Minister resign from the cabinet and bring down the government given both the Army and the general population were against backing down from the Chinese.

The Prime Minister, with the blessings of the Emperor, thus authorized a major offensive to seize Peking. After this they would seek to negotiate a peace agreement where the KMT would be allowed to retain control of Hebei but it and Shantung would be demilitarized and possess Japanese garrisons. This would satisfy the militarists and popular opinion and not be too onerous for the Chinese.

A major battle raged in Beijing for six days in early September. 150,000 Japanese troops crushed half their number of Chinese troops with superior firepower and took the city, along with the neighboring port of Tientsin. The Japanese then sent envoys to negotiate with Chiang Kai Shek.

Upon hearing the terms Chiang quickly rejected them. While such a concession could have been possible earlier, the United Front made that impossible. Backing down like this would almost certainly mean a civil war and while Chiang would probably win it would leave him far weaker and vulnerable to further attacks by the Japanese who would slowly pick China apart piece by piece as the British had done to India. In this he had correctly divined the Japanese plan for China.

The only way to avoid such a fate was an immediate full scale war. China was completely unprepared for such, Chiang had 50 German trained divisions which were acceptably trained and possessed of high morale, but even they were more poorly equipped than their Japanese counterparts. Most of his Army was barely more than a warlords levy or a militia, lacking in modern weapons and in an heavy weapons more generally. Some numbers of his troops had only swords such was the shortage of arms. In the air the situation was even worse, with the ROCAF outnumbered 7 to 1 by the Japanese. At sea there was no contest at all, with the Chinese possessing only two small cruisers and some gunboats against the third largest navy on earth. The only advantages China had were in manpower and geographic size, their only option was to drown the Japanese in Chinese blood and to exhaust their stores of blood and treasure over many hard years of war.

It was a horrible strategy that would cost the Chinese oceans of blood and set back the country’s development by years even if they won, which was by no means guaranteed. Yet it was the only way forward that Chiang could see…

-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009

 
So Spain is the lacky of Italy to some degree and the Second Sino-Japanese War is starting a year later than OTL? Why do I think this will cause things to be delayed for a couple more years till WWII kicks off?
 
When the Second world war Begin later WE will See much more death and destruction because evryone has more time ro rearmorment.
 
Spain as a puppet of italy? Well given Italian fascism seemingly survives the war, we at least won't see Spain trying to nab Gibraltar probably.

2nd Sino-Japanese War starts a year later TTL it seems, wonder how much of a difference that makes.
 
I disagree, given the fact we know WW2 goes worse and even WW3 might happen, it's possible Spain does take over Gibraltar. For a while. Weather whatever hell befalls them on those wars is worth it though...
 
I disagree, given the fact we know WW2 goes worse and even WW3 might happen, it's possible Spain does take over Gibraltar. For a while. Weather whatever hell befalls them on those wars is worth it though...
Depends on what "those wars" entail. If Sanna in Italy and with him Spain stay neutral in WW3 as some much less successful version of the Fascist Block in FOM and then when the Soviets presumably start WW3 with alt-NATO which presumably includes a limited nuclear exchange also manage to stay neutral, then Spain could probably grab Gibraltar quite easy. Britain would probably be desperate enough for food and other emergency relief, that they'd sell it to Spain.
Note that there were quite a few "presumably" and "probably" in my paragraph, but I'd not rule it out either.
 
Part 5-25 Into the Abyss
…Following the seizure of Beijing and Tientsin the Japanese were content to wait while their negotiations bore fruit. Those cities and the surrounding territory was sufficient prize for a campaign. The Japanese leadership were wary of expending too much strength against the Chinese at any given time when the threat of the Soviet Union still loomed large in the North. Further advances could overstretch them to the point where Stalin might seek to take advantage.

As the weeks wore on it quickly became clear that Chiang was not interested in negotiating with them. Thus the government and military leadership planned a limited scale offensive in Northeastern China to create a land bridge to Shangtung and control the lower reaches of the Yellow River. This plan played to the relative strength of the Japanese as the open spaces of the North China Plain would let their superiority in artillery and airpower tell the most, while allowing the better trained and disciplined troops freedom to maneuver.

Chiang had however correctly guessed what the Japanese would attempt and made the decision to preempt them. He ordered his men in Shanghai to create a provocation so that the Japanese would have to respond there in force, rather than start a campaign elsewhere in China. Shanghai was chosen as it was in the heart of the KMT’s military strength in the lower Yangtze Valley, if he could inflict a severe defeat on the Japanese anywhere it would be there. The maze of waterways and wetlands surrounding the city would make Japanese maneuvers difficult while the urban terrain within the city would mitigate Japanese firepower. Finally as the most international city in China fighting there would arouse the most foreign interest and be most likely to lead to foreign intervention, something Chiang saw as the only way to avoid spilling an ocean of Chinese blood.

There was however an enormous risk inherent in bringing the fighting to Shanghai. It was the largest industrial center in China, if lost it would have an enormous impact on the Chinese ability to fight back against the Japanese. Furthermore losing it would open up the road to the Nationalist Chinese Capital at Nanking, the loss of which would be catastrophic for the KMT’s political power and Chiang’s personally. Nevertheless it was the decision that Chiang made.

On October 1st several off duty Japanese naval personnel were assaulted by an angry mob, with two killed. When the Japanese consul attempted to get those involved punished the day afterwards the Chinese “Peace Preservation Corps” stonewalled him. On October 3rd firefights broke out between the Peace Preservation Corps and the Japanese garrison in the city, escalating to exchanges of mortar fire by nightfall. The Japanese were compelled to prepare reinforcements for the city and abandon thoughts of a campaign in North China.

Before those reinforcements could arrive the Chinese struck. The Chinese plan was to push the Japanese away from the wharves on the Whangpoo river to prevent them from immediately landing reinforcements at the battle site. Any reinforcements would then have to fight their way ashore elsewhere and would be forced to assault recklessly to relieve the Shanghai garrison, and thus expose themselves to more casualties, which would allow the otherwise inferior firepower of the Chinese to bleed them white. To do this Chiang had assembled 100,000 troops to attack the 5,000 sailors and 5,000 reservists and volunteers the Japanese had garrisoning the city.

Almost immediately the Chinese attack ran into problems. The 150mm pieces that were their heaviest artillery could not defeat the concrete bunkers that the Japanese had constructed to protect their garrison. Thus the bunkers had to be suppressed with machine gun fire while men painstakingly crawled forwards with bundles of grenades or flamethrowers to knock them out. This was made even more expensive by the superiority in artillery provided by the Japanese warships in the harbor. When the Chinese air force attempted to sink some of those vessels, they instead ended up bombing the International Settlement killing several thousand civilians and costing them much of the international sympathy they were hoping to gain. Much of the painstakingly imported Chinese tank corps was lost in attempts to overrun the Japanese before reinforcements arrived, with their infantry coordination severely lacking even in the best cases.

On October 8th the Japanese reinforcements began arriving and the Chinese plan started to unravel. Able to land uncontested, rather than having to conduct assault landings they were quickly able to stabilize the lines then start pushing the Chinese back. It was at this point that Chiang made his fatal mistake in the campaign. Rather than recognize that his gambit had failed and maintain a strong reserve for the next phase of the campaign he instead sent further reinforcements into the fighting in and immediately around the city. Most fatally he sent more of his precious German trained divisions. 10 of them were fully trained and fully equipped to an equivalency with the Japanese, 10 more were trained if not equipped and 30 more were partially trained, four of the first category, two of the second and six of the third had been committed already. Chiang’s decision to now commit them all would send his best and most loyal troops into an inferno.

Fighting continued to escalate over the next month. The Japanese expanded the battlefield as they landed their troops outside of the city proper, clearing the way with levels of naval artillery fire that Chiang had not predicted. By the second week of November the Chinese air force which had thus far been able to check the Japanese was forced to retire from the combat area due to attrition and the Japanese were advancing on key logistics node at Dachang that the Chinese needed to keep fighting in Shanghai proper. Furthermore Japanese use of chemical weapons, officially at the behest of the Beiyang government to “suppress rebellion” and thus technically legal, made it difficult for the underequipped Chinese troops to stand in place.

Chiang was urged by some of his advisers to withdraw from the city and preserve his troops. Fighting further inland would stretch out Japanese supply lines and eliminate the Japanese ability to use naval artillery. For reasons of diplomacy Chiang could not do this, a Conference of the Ten Powers, established by one of the London Treaties, was ongoing. Withdrawing from Shanghai would have sent the wrong message to the various powers, while staying was an indication of Chinese resolve to keep fighting the Japanese. Given that international support was the only way to end the war without enormous Chinese casualties or to replace heavy equipment Chiang felt he had no choice but to keep fighting.

Despite ever growing numbers of Chinese reinforcements the Japanese continued to advance and on November 27th captured Dachang. This forced the Chinese to make a largescale retreat across the Woosung river, leaving a sacrificial rearguard to hold another four days in a desperate attempt to hold a warehouse at the outskirts of the city for PR reasons while the rest was abandoned. Chiang hoped to use the river to force the Japanese into costly assaults, however by this point the Chinese forces were so weak that it took a dozen of their divisions to match a single Japanese one. Worse the troops set to guard against Japanese amphibious flanking attacks had been diverted to fighting in the city. Thus on December 1st the Chinese were forced to retreat again to avoid encirclement as the Japanese threatened to both break through their front and to cut off their rear at the same time.

On December 4th the official order to withdraw was given and the Chinese withdrew from their last positions near Shanghai. What little order and organization remained quickly disintegrated in the retreat as the 70 divisions had been chewed up and spit out in the defense of Shanghai effectively ceased to exist. The best trained and equipped units in the Chinese Army ceased to exist and the way to the Chinese capital was defended only by a few low quality units…

…Chiang’s gamble at Shanghai turned into an enormous failure. The European members of the Ten Power Conference were too busy in Europe to intervene and the Americans were hamstrung by their neutrality acts, no foreign aid would be coming. The best and most loyal units and officers of the Chinese Army were lost. 95% of the city’s industry was either captured by the Japanese or destroyed, leaving only 5% to be relocated…

…Following their victory at Shanghai the Japanese looked towards taking the Chinese capital at Nanking. They hoped that if they could capture that the Chinese would sue for peace and end this expensive war…

-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009

 
I like the update in general, but I sincerely doubt the KMT had an air force powerful enough kill thousands of civilians even if they did so on purpose, let alone by accident.
 
I like the update in general, but I sincerely doubt the KMT had an air force powerful enough kill thousands of civilians even if they did so on purpose, let alone by accident.
That happened OTL, or rather the estimate was between 750-3000 dead in the "Black Saturday" bombing of August 14th 1937 depending on your source. When you drop four 550 pound bombs into a street packed almost shoulder to shoulder with shoppers you get a lot of deaths. Here details are different but Shanghai is still a dense city and the IJN is still mooring their warships in about the same places, so bombers are likely to miss in the same places
 
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Man, how does an air force aim for ships and end up bombing a shopping street instead?

Well that was bloody. I liked the narration of the battle. How different are things from from OTL though? That figure of only salvaging 5% of the industry does not sound good.
 
Man, how does an air force aim for ships and end up bombing a shopping street instead?

Well that was bloody. I liked the narration of the battle. How different are things from from OTL though? That figure of only salvaging 5% of the industry does not sound good.
Gotta remember that the city was probably on fire, covered in smoke, and the pilots were likely facing heavy flak and enemy fighters.
 
That happened OTL, or rather the estimate was between 750-3000 dead in the "Black Saturday" bombing of August 14th 1937 depending on your source. When you drop four 550 pound bombs into a street packed almost shoulder to shoulder with shoppers you get a lot of deaths. Here details are different but Shanghai is still a dense city and the IJN is still mooring their warships in about the same places, so bombers are likely to miss in the same places
Interesting didn't know that.
 
Man, how does an air force aim for ships and end up bombing a shopping street instead?

Well that was bloody. I liked the narration of the battle. How different are things from from OTL though? That figure of only salvaging 5% of the industry does not sound good.
Well when the warship in question is moored on the other side of a narrow River from that street

OTL it was 10%

Battle was slightly shorter, started with an explicit provocation ITTL, later in the year
 
Well when the warship in question is moored on the other side of a narrow River from that street

OTL it was 10%

Battle was slightly shorter, started with an explicit provocation ITTL, later in the year
Thanks, that explains it.

5% vs 10%, so only half as much industry recovered from Shanghai. Definitely worse outcome. Wikipedia tells me that "formed the core of China's wartime industry" and having only half of that would be a nasty loss, but it's Wikipedia so I have no idea how accurate that claim of the Shanghai equipment's importance is.
 
Part 5-26 Seeds of Hate, Ignition
…Serbian Ultranationalism, having emerged in the days before WWI and transformed itself in the days immediately following WWI, took on a new form during the reign of King Paul. Before that point the various Serbian nationalist organizations were concerned with assimilating the south Slavic but non Serbian populace of Yugoslavia into proper Serbs. With King Paul’s ascension to the throne any official moves in that direction stopped. Paul was a British educated liberal who had a model similar to Great Britain in mind for Yugoslavia, where Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Bosniaks and others remained separate nations working together as part of one country.

For many Serbian nationalists this was seen as a betrayal. His Father, King Arsen, had tried to run Yugoslavia as a greater Serbia, with Serbs influence being paramount at every level of government. King Paul worked to run the country as a true federation and allowed non-Serbs far greater influence. For the traditional elite of Serbia this weakened their power, influence and prestige, as rather than rulers of a nation they were now rulers of a province in a federation…

…Many Serb Nationalists saw the fact that over a million Serbs were living in Banovinas that were dominated by non-Serbs as a betrayal of their people. Only Serbs should govern Serbs they argued…

…In the late 30’s Serbian nationalist groups began coalescing under the banner of the National Chetnik Union. Originally founded as an association of Veterans of the various WWI Cheta guerilla bands in 1921, by the late 30’s it became an umbrella group for Serbian ultranationalists. Its manifesto called for an independent ethnically homogenous Serb state consisting of about 85% of Yugoslav territory, along with land from Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Italy…

…The Chetniks were heavily funded by Italain intelligence through a number of proxies. Funding them was considered a win-win for Sanna. If they took over, they would alienate all of Yugoslavia’s neighbors and allies and give Sanna a perfect causus belli to take what he desired from the country. If they failed they would weaken the Yugoslav state for whenever he got around to dealing with it.

It was Sanna’s support that made the Chetniks a true power in Yugoslavia…

…The defeat and dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire had left shockwaves in the Turkish Nation. The complete discreditation of Ottoman Imperial Institutions that had started even before the war left many turning towards secular Turkish Nationalism. The Apex of this was the movement to revise the Treaty of Sevres under Mustafa Kemal. However following the death of Kemal and the defeat of his movement by the Greeks this secular nationalism too was discredited…

…With royalism and secular nationalism both discredited many Turks increasingly turned towards religion as an answer. The extant and traditional forms of Islam practiced in Turkey were closely linked with the Ottoman regime and were thus discredited in turn. This led to the rise a bewildering variety of itinerant preachers each peddling their own unique interpretation of Islam in hopes of attracting a following at the expense of local imams and mullahs. The most infamous and successful of these was Hasim “the Arab” Demir…

…Born of an Arab concubine of an Ottoman Officer stationed in Medina Hasim the Arab followed his father into the Ottoman military in 1913. Obtaining the rank of Captain over the course of the war he was wounded in 1919, losing his left hand and two toes of his left foot, resulting in his discharge shortly before the end of the war. Lacking prospects given his wounds and the depressed economy of postwar Turkey, still nominally the Ottoman Empire, he ended up visiting his mothers extended family in the Najd.

While there he spent a great deal of time studying the Quran and was quickly accepted into a Madrassa. There he flourished and became a devout follower of the local creeds. Following his graduation with honors he returned home determined to preach the true word of the Prophet to his father’s people…

…Hasim’s preaching was radically different than the mainstream Ottoman interpretations of Islam. The Ottomans had in the main followed the liberal Maturidi theological creed and the liberal Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence. Hasim preached the strict Athari creed and the even stricter Hanbali school of jurisprudence to interpret it, in accordance with the teachings of the 18th century scholar al-Wahhab. He called for a return to the early days of Islam and an end to the decadence that brought about the fall of the Ottoman Empire, as it had so many other Islamic empires previously…

…Hasim started his preaching in the city of Kayseri in 1930 where he quickly gained a large following. Showing a keen organizational mind in addition to a powerful oratory he quickly organized his greatest adherents to spread the word to other cities and towns, while still taking direction from him…

…By the late 30’s Hasim’s movement had spread throughout the unoccupied portions of the rump Ottoman State and even within those portions to a degree. In those areas without foreign troops he was able to organize what amounted to a shadow government backed by a paramilitary militia modeled on the Arabian Ikhwan that had propelled the Saudi dynasty to power…

…By 1940 the Ottoman government effectively ruled only the international zone of the straits, with the remaining area that was not controlled by colonial powers being effectively under the control of the so called “Iron Preacher’s” shadow government…

-Excerpt from Seeds of Hate: The Origins of the Secondary Conflicts of WWII, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2018



…Over the course of the 30’s the US Army Chemical Corps scaled up the 3” Infantry Portable Rocket, or Stovepipe as it was popularly known to larger sizes. A 5” and 8” rocket would replace the 6.1” and 9.4” mortars that had proved too immobile for their limited range and payload. Primarily these were to be used to disperse various chemical agents, though Smoke was the official payload of record, with secondary roles of delivering HE and incendiaries. The 5” model had a range of 10,000 yards while the 8” possessed a range of 15,000 yards…

…By the late 30’s all three of the Germans, the British and the Soviets had rocket weapons in development. The French while having performed a great deal of research into rocketry did not have an active weapons development program for various budgetary reasons. The German and Soviet program were both focused on surface to surface use, as was the American one, while the British focused on anti-aircraft use. All three of the United States, Germany and the United Kingdom were pursuing rocket assisted takeoff as well…

…By 1939 the US Army was growing dissatisfied with the 16.5” Coast Artillery Howitzer that it planned on using as a siege weapon in future wars. While fitting the goals set out for the program, simply transporting four of the weapons to Panama in peacetime proved an endeavor and a half. Deploying these weapons offensively in wartime, along with the standard 16”/50 coastal defense gun and the prototype 9.6”/100 long range harassment gun was now seen impossible to do in a timely manner. What the Army wanted was something that could fill the same roles but be at least as transportable as the 240mm howitzer and the 8” gun scheduled to enter service in 1941.

The Chemical Corps large solid fueled rockets promised a solution to that conundrum. A goal was for three rockets, a short range weapon that could lob 400 pounds of explosive 24,000 yards or a heavy armor piercing shell 16,000 yards, a medium range weapon that could lob 200 pounds of HE 48,000 yards and a long range weapon that could lob a 50 pound charge 144,000 yards. The medium class weapon was quickly cancelled due to accuracy issues, being too inaccurate for its relatively limited payload and not serving as a mere harassment weapon as the long range rocket was…

…Despite the Army’s preoccupation with solid fuel rockets, Robert Goddard in his role as their lead rocketry expert continued to press for the development of liquid fueled rockets. He argued that they were more scalable and efficient and were the ideal solution for the Army’s needs based on his personal research that had been funded by the Guggenheims. Army officials however preferred the simpler and more storable solid rockets they were familiar with…

…Experiments in liquid fueled rocketry in Germany under Hermann Oberth as part of the Society for Space Travel were put an end to by the rise of the SVP. Despite a comfortable relationship with right wing paramilitaries getting initial funding in 1932 by 1934 Rudolf Nebel, the Society’s main contact with the government had thoroughly alienated his government handlers. Oberth, Engel, Nebel, Riedel and Ehmayr were thus treated with suspicion by the SVP government and were barred from working on weapons research before and during the war. This thus held back German rocket research in general and ended any serious work on liquid fueled rocketry in Germany…

…The beginning of WWII forced Goddard to concentrate on his work for the Army and to end his work with liquid fueled rocketry. This marked the end of serious development in that field until the mid-1950’s when the United States and Soviet Union embarked on crash programs to design Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles capable of carrying Hydrogen bombs...

-Excerpt from Ignition: A History of Rocketry, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2015
 
The Balkans are being the Balkans, no real surprise there.

Turkey, forming in the mold of the Saudis, ok that's painful.

For fuck shake H-bombs are going to fly ITL aren't they?
 
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