Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

Thry get too caught up on sadistic torture to remember shit like "take notes" and "ensure the experiemnt has a purpose".
 
Thry get too caught up on sadistic torture to remember shit like "take notes" and "ensure the experiemnt has a purpose".
If they even care. In some cases they may take notes and come up with some BS cover for the purpose, but the idea is just sanctioned sadism for them. It's where the kinds of people who previously would have worked in the King's Dungeons as official Pain Technicians (torturers) end up going once having an 'Official Torturer' no longer becomes acceptable.
 
Splitting firewood, banged my foot, a bit sore but otherwise fine

Yes it did, also led by Senator Nye. The Devil is however in the details, or more relevantly the lack of certain details
Glad your issues were minor. I know nothing about the OTL Nye committee, so I don't know what details are lacking because they're actually lacking, and which are lacking because the update is only briefly discussing things. Were its results still released to the public? It doesn't seem to have amounted to much in the grand scheme of things OTL anyway.
 
Glad your issues were minor. I know nothing about the OTL Nye committee, so I don't know what details are lacking because they're actually lacking, and which are lacking because the update is only briefly discussing things. Were its results still released to the public? It doesn't seem to have amounted to much in the grand scheme of things OTL anyway.
It seems to me that the detail that is missing is the OTL finger-pointing at Wilson doesn't occur in TTL.
 
This is one of the most bone-chilling updates yet in my opinion. All this talk of chemical warfare and sadistic human experimentation- I know a lot of it is adapted from OTL but it’s still sickening to hear about. Plus the fact that it’s being mentioned in this “make the world wars way worse” timeline does not inspire much optimism.

And I noticed that it is specifically mentioned that “not much is known” about the Soviet chemical warfare research program. I don’t remember if it’s been discussed earlier in the thread, but to me this seems to hint at a Soviet loss in the war? An epically disastrous, apocalyptic “there is no Russia anymore” kind of loss? I’m not a TNO fan but that’s the kind of imagery that’s coming to mind for me right now.
 
…Little is known about the Soviet biological weapons program. It was established mere months after the USSR signed the Convention banning it. The program received priority in 1929 and tests were first carried out on the Aral Sea in 1936…
Well for a good while they experimented mostly with disease warfare, including anthrax and (shudder) medicine-resistant smallpox, both pre and post war. Another famous example was Semyon Zlatogorov's experiments and usage of pneumonic [lagues, of which he was perhaps the most experienced in the world in. As for chemical/gas, the Soviet Union made use of Lewisite and Mustard gas, and from what I can gather they either knew about or had some access to Soman gas, as well as knowing about Sarin gas during WWII from the Lucy Spy Ring.

Of course almost none of this was known until Kanat Alibekov defected to the USA in 1992 and spilled the beans. It was (and is) still highly classified in Russia and not much more than Alibekov's account is known. There are a few MI6 articles from the 1920's that are mostly speculation, which are reasonably accurate but not known for sure and Barbarossa changed the Soviet weapons program heavily after several moves to either avoid German capture or change testing environments.
 
And I noticed that it is specifically mentioned that “not much is known” about the Soviet chemical warfare research program. I don’t remember if it’s been discussed earlier in the thread, but to me this seems to hint at a Soviet loss in the war? An epically disastrous, apocalyptic “there is no Russia anymore” kind of loss? I’m not a TNO fan but that’s the kind of imagery that’s coming to mind for me right now.
Our current guess is the red win the WW2, but than WW3 happened in 60s, in which Soviet, along with large swath of Europe was destory in nuclear hellfire.
 
Our current guess is the red win the WW2, but than WW3 happened in 60s, in which Soviet, along with large swath of Europe was destory in nuclear hellfire.
Seems to me that it would be that way instead. The USSR, even with a later start on industry, still has a massive advantage as the war gets longer. I don't think Germany will just be able to skate through Europe like OTL, and face the Soviets at full strength. There will be a butcher's bill before facing the Russians, who themselves will probably have an equally, or moreso, arduous march through Europe.
 
Oh, chemical weapons and biological ones? Wonder how high the casualties will be... especially the ones that survive but will have disabilities after nerve gas exposure.

I forgot where I read it but in regards to the Japanese... guys... well, for many of the experiments it was mentioned that the scientists had a child like curiosity when starting or doing them, what would happen if we boil a pregnant woman type of curiosity

(Would this mean the British decide to simply annihilate life in Europe with Anthrax?)
 
And I noticed that it is specifically mentioned that “not much is known” about the Soviet chemical warfare research program. I don’t remember if it’s been discussed earlier in the thread, but to me this seems to hint at a Soviet loss in the war?
There's been mention of Soviet, along with most other Mainland Europe, records being destroyed at some point. Current leading hypothesis is a nuclear World War 3. (in part based on hints of a massive downturn in opinions and status of communism in the 1960s)
 
There's been mention of Soviet, along with most other Mainland Europe, records being destroyed at some point. Current leading hypothesis is a nuclear World War 3. (in part based on hints of a massive downturn in opinions and status of communism in the 1960s)
Don't forget the apparent mainstream of being ok with non-Hitler style Fascism in the history books.
 
Part 5-22 Into the Abyss
…As 1938 wore on the weakness of Stiedle’s position as Chancellor grew ever more apparent. The Austrian SVP increased their pace of rabble rousing. Riots, violence and agitation increased in lockstep with German propaganda about the oneness of the German people. In February after requesting that Germany cease supporting the actions of the SVP in Austria and receiving a negative response, Stielde launched a crackdown on the SVP.

Stiedle actions were met with more than just the expected condemnation from Germany. Sanna in Italy rapidly condemned the campaign as an unnecessary escalation that risked the fragile relations between Germany, Italy and Austria to Stiedle’s shock, having assumed that for reasons of realpolitik that Sanna would still back Austria. Without Sanna’s support Stiedle’s gamble failed as President Miklas and the rest of the cabinet came out against Stiedle’s actions. What little credibility Stiedle had began to evaporate.

In order to avoid precipitous action by Germany Stiedle was forced to bring elements of the SVP into the cabinet, most prominently appointing Austrian SVP head Arthur Seyss-Inquart to the vacant position of Vice-Chancellor. This placed Stiedle in a very weak position and risked the SVP taking over should he be killed.

Stiedle realized that this was merely a prelude to a German attempt to annex Austria. A fervent Austrian nationalist he spent the remainder of March and April attempting to rebuild a right wing coalition against the SVP. Despite support from President Miklas he soon found that there was little appetite to support him against the SVP in the ruling fatherland front. The Heimwehr paramilitary he had helped found was outside of his home province against him, the monarchists while against the SVP were pro unification and most of the other conservative groups saw the SVP as the lesser of two evils.

Stiedle would have been content to try and keep working on the right had he not been placed under an effective time limit by Hitler. On April 24th Hitler declared on the radio that he would no longer tolerate the suppression of ten million Germans right next door to Germany. This was an implicit threat to Stiedle and he realized that he had to do something drastic if Austria was going to stay independent.

Stiedle in May then decided to make a surprising move for someone of his background, he reached out to the left and far left. His Austrian Nationalism proved stronger than his conservatism and hatred of socialism and communism. He offered to legalize the Social Democrats and end the laws against them, even attempt to bring them into the government. In exchange he wanted them and the far left to support a referendum in June enshrining the principle of Austrian Independence.

This was Stiedle’s big gamble, a statement of the Austrian people that they did not want to join Germany would allow him to remove the SVP from the cabinet and would deter Hitler from militarily intervening by making any attack look like blatant aggression. Of course Stiedle was aware that a significant portion of the Austrian population, if not a majority, wanted Austria to join Germany, even if that number was not quite so high in 1938 as it had been in years past. Stielde thus planned on manipulating the voting age to exclude as many disproportionately young SVP voters as possible and to use a variety of other legal tricks to discourage pro-independence turnout. Even with all of this Stiedle was quite aware that his gamble was likely to fail. In that event he planned to go into exile in Finland at the court of King Charles.

Despite having a leader, Karl Renner, who was pro unification the Social Democrats agreed to Stiedle’s plan. Renner while wanting a united German state also thought that a better time would be after the SVP government fell and was replaced with a moderate regime. Thus the stage was set for an independence referendum on June 10th.

News of this referendum outraged Hitler when it was announced. Even if the pro unification side won the referendum, a strong possibility even with Stiedle’s attempts at tilting the odds, it would be by a reasonable margin, not the overwhelming support that Hitler craved. It would be a blow to his ego and prestige that his homeland would have significant resistance to him.

On May 25th Hitler ordered the Austrian SVP and German intelligence to work their utmost to create civil disorder in Austria. Following this German propaganda began announcing that the June 10th Plebiscite would be rigged and that there was large scale rioting in Austria on the 27th. The Austrian government fervently denied that the rioting was anything more than isolated provocations by the SVP the Germans were blowing out of proportion in an attempt to dissuade Hitler from intervening.

On May 29th Hitler sent an ultimatum to Austria, Stielde would resign by noon on May 31st or else he would invade to restore order. Stiedle and Miklas spent the 30th attempting to drum up support from Italy, France and Britain, but quickly found that no help would be coming from that quarter. At 11:00 on May 31st Stiedle officially resigned and Arthur Seyss-Inquart was appointed Chancellor of Austria.

On June 1st German armored columns entered Austria on Seyss-Inquart’s invitation to cheering crowds. Hitler followed later that day, beginning a four day triumphal tour that started at his hometown of Branau-am-Inn and ended at Heroes Square in Vienna. At the end of the tour Hitler and Seyss-Inquart officially announced the abrogation of the treaty articles forbidding the Anschluss and the official entrance of Austria into the Third German Reich…

…On August 1st Hitler held a plebiscite to legitimize his annexation of Austria. An unbelievable 99.3% of the votes were for union with Germany in a blatantly rigged election. This was wholly unnecessary, as support was estimated at least 75% in August 1938, given that the senior representative of the Catholic Church in Austria and the head of the main opposition, the social Democrats, endorsed the Anschluss as both a done deal and in support of pan-German sentiments. Furthermore Hitler had purged 400,000 from the Austrian voter rolls, left wing supporters, Jews and Gypsies primarily, something that would further increase his margin. However Hitler wanted to show almost total support, even at the cost of believability…

…Karl Renner of the Austrian Social Democrats was rewarded by Hitler for his support of the Anschluss and the subsequent antisemitic laws that followed with arrest and incarceration at Mauthausen concentration camp in 1941. He was later executed there in 1943…

…Reaction to the Anschluss was fairly tepid internationally. While most governments recognized that it was not entirely voluntary, there was an undercurrent of acceptance that it was a done deal and most Austrians were satisfied with the new arrangements. Only Mexico protested vociferously as a matter of principle…

…The Anschluss came at a necessary time for Germany. German foreign exchange reserves were down to six weeks’ worth. Based on their current balance of payments deficit they would have likely run out in four months and thus suffered an economic crash that would have wrecked their rearmament program. Acquiring Austria saw those reserves instantly triple and their balance of payments deficit be reduced substantially. Germany now had over a year at current rates of expenditure…

…With France and Britain distracted by the Anschluss little note was taken when Italy occupied Albania on June 20th following a missed debt payment and effectively took control of the country…

…The largest effect of the Anschluss was what it had on Czechoslovakia. The country had a 3 million strong German minority concentrated in the area known as the Sudetenland. This minority was growing increasingly restive as the Depression had killed the export industries that employed them and the Czech majority attempted to impose Czech on them. The government in Prague was well aware that Germany under Hitler might want to take those areas as part of his pan-German rhetoric.

A large series of border fortifications were thus constructed effectively as strong as the Maginot line in France. Combined with a large army equipped by Czechoslovakia’s strong defense industry they would allow the Czechoslovaks to bleed any German invasion white, ideally long enough for international aid to materialize. The annexation of Austria provided the German Army with a route that avoided those fortifications, which placed the Czechoslovaks at a distinct disadvantage.

The Stage had been set for the next step on the road to war…

-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009

 
Well that was one chaotic ATL austria annexation. It will make it easier later on to portray Austria as the "first victim" given the leadership ran away with a German gun barrel behind them. I worry what the legacy of an Austrian social democrat leader supporting the Nazi Anschluss will be....

Speaking of lead-up to war and fights involving minor countries, what are Greece and Turkey up to? Since Kemal died in the post-WW1 struggles Greece probably holds Smyrna and Istanbul. Are the Turks leaning towards Germany in hope of getting back at the Greeks and perhaps Russia for taking land? (where is the TTL Turkish-Soviet border?)
 
Well that was one chaotic ATL austria annexation. It will make it easier later on to portray Austria as the "first victim" given the leadership ran away with a German gun barrel behind them. I worry what the legacy of an Austrian social democrat leader supporting the Nazi Anschluss will be....

Speaking of lead-up to war and fights involving minor countries, what are Greece and Turkey up to? Since Kemal died in the post-WW1 struggles Greece probably holds Smyrna and Istanbul. Are the Turks leaning towards Germany in hope of getting back at the Greeks and perhaps Russia for taking land? (where is the TTL Turkish-Soviet border?)
I mean In regards to Renner he supported the Anschluss otl as well
 
Well that was one chaotic ATL austria annexation. It will make it easier later on to portray Austria as the "first victim" given the leadership ran away with a German gun barrel behind them. I worry what the legacy of an Austrian social democrat leader supporting the Nazi Anschluss will be....

Speaking of lead-up to war and fights involving minor countries, what are Greece and Turkey up to? Since Kemal died in the post-WW1 struggles Greece probably holds Smyrna and Istanbul. Are the Turks leaning towards Germany in hope of getting back at the Greeks and perhaps Russia for taking land? (where is the TTL Turkish-Soviet border?)
In OTL that legacy was to be the first post WWII Chancellor of Austria, he supported it OTL as well

Turkey got the full Sevres treatment with some negligible differences, with the "Wilsonian Armenia" being absorbed into the USSR as SSRs (an Armenian and a Pontic Greek one). Constantinople (not Istanbul) is still Turkish but demilitarized and under LoN occupation as part of the Straits zone. More on them later
 
Part 5-23 European Wars, Butchers Bill, Revisionist Viewpoints
…Following the unexpected rout and collapse of the Popular Front forces in the Southern Pocket the Nationalists moved up their plan to crush the remnants in Catalonia. This was not by as much as one would think, despite the conquest of the main Popular Front pocket being 3 months ahead Franco could only move up the offensive from August to July, given the need to garrison the liberated area and to replace expended munitions and fuel.

The military leadership of the Popular Front was well aware that once this happened the Nationalists would win by the end of August. By this point while they had a quarter of a million men, only half had rifles, they had 30 planes, 20 tanks and 50 artillery pieces and morale was poor. The Nationalists had three times as many men, all with proper weapons, 500 aircraft, 200 tanks and 700 artillery pieces, furthermore their morale was great. The military leaders of the Popular Front thus called for a negotiated surrender to the Nationalists, figuring that the Nationalist Junta would rather the war end in May than in August and with a smaller butchers bill.

This was vetoed by Prime Minister Juan Negrin, who had taken over from Manuel Azaña after the fall of Madrid. Negrin, or more precisely his Communist handlers was unwilling to consider peace. The exact reasons for this remain unknown but peace negotiations were explicitly off the table and the order of the day was to drag the war out as long as possible.

The Communist refusal to consider negotiations alienated the other parties that made up the Popular Front. In previous times this would not have been a problem, given that the Communists had used Soviet weapons deliveries and volunteers as leverage to marginalize the other parties. Combined with some well timed assassinations, thuggery and blackmail and the Communists had by fall of 1937 taken almost complete control of the Popular Front. However with the collapse of the southern pocket it was clear that the cause was lost and Soviet arms deliveries slowed to a trickle while their volunteers withdrew. Furthermore the Popular Front was now confined to Catalonia, which was strong anarchist territory and had a local political base that the communists had utterly infuriated.

This gave the Popular Front Military a base of support to prepare a coup. The Anarchists militias, such as they remained could seize control while the anti-communist military elements could neutralize the communist ones. The Communists could be removed from government and peace negotiations could occur while the Popular Front still had leverage. Planning for a coup took place during May with a planned launch date of June 6th.

Unfortunately the Communists got word of the coup on June 3rd and launched a major roundup on the 5th, capturing most of the senior plotters. Despite this the coup still went off the next day, but in an uncoordinated manner more like a popular uprising. Communist loyal forces moved to intercept and a civil war within a civil war broke out. The Communists were able to take control of the cities, but the countryside rapidly fell to Anarchist militias.

This miniature civil war had a deleterious effect on the front line which was quickly noticed by the Nationalists. On June 21st they launched their victory offensive. With the exception of certain hard core communist units the Popular Front Army evaporated. Most soldiers decided that they no longer cared who won and simply wanted to live to see the end of the war. By the 30th the Nationalists had reached the sea and only a handful of cities with Communist holdouts remained, and even those were few as many units shot their commissars and surrendered.

By July 14th the last holdout surrendered and the Spanish Civil War was over. General Sanjurjo however would not live to lead the postwar government as he died of a heart attack at a victory party that night…

-Excerpt from European Wars for Americans, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2004



…In terms of military dead the Popular Front suffered approximately 110,000 while the Nationalists suffered 80,000. A further 10,000 foreign volunteers were killed fighting for the Popular Front, while the Nationalists lost about 2,000. The military death toll however is the easy part of the equation.

Officially only about 100,000 civilians died during this period, of which the Spanish government attributes 90% to the Popular Front. This itself is a noted change from previous figures supported by the Spanish government that were both lower and further weighted against the Popular Front, but remains an underestimate according to most non-Spanish scholarly sources…

…Based on Demographic estimates Latin American scholars have concluded the true civilian death toll of the Spanish Civil War is in the range of 250,000-350,000, from both deliberate killing and from causes such as malnutrition and exposure. The typical attribution is 60% of civilian deaths were caused by the Popular Front while 40% are attributable to the Nationalists…

-Excerpt from The Butcher’s Bill: An Incomplete History of Wartime Casualties, New American Press, Chicago, 1996



…Work by modern scholars has conclusively disproved the 90% Republican caused death toll in the Spanish Civil War. Further analysis indicates that the 60:40 ratio, created in the late 80’s by a number of Latin American researchers is itself a flawed underestimate. Based on newly released scholarship from the National Autonomous University of Mexico and the University of Buenos Aires it is clear that at a minimum the commonly accepted ratio must be reversed and the Nationalists be given responsibility for at least 60% of the civilian casualties of the Spanish Civil War…

…Modern estimates are that in addition to wartime casualties a further 100,000-200,000 deaths are attributable to the Nationalist regime in the period immediately following the war of […]. Combined with the wartime civilian deaths attributed to them and the civilian death toll attributable to the nationalists Nationalist is as much as ten times as great as that attributed to the Republicans…

-Excerpt from Revisionist Viewpoints in History Volume XXIX, University of California Press: Berkley, 2019
 
Fascism kills tons of people and then pretends they didn't. News at 11.

But interesting that modern Spain did tone it down a little even if still making the Nationalists look better
 
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