Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

maybe he isn't antisemitic?
With no camps, the eastern front is just 'War' and all the atrocities, well, the soviets are the soviets. (that is to say, there is room to pretend it was just war, and to degree it wasn't, nobody cares about the soviets).
That's what I'm thinking as well. Instead of the Jews it's the commies he puts the full blame for Germany's defeat on while keeping his OTL beliefs on the Slavic people.
 
But it was mentioned that antisemitism was a major problem at the fascist conference in Italy, even if Sana didn't have that problem himself, purportedly
 
It's simple really, something will overshadow Hitler the same way that hitler overshadowed Kaiser Wilhelm in OTL (like how kaiserboos tend to seen as slightly better than wehraboos).
 
But it was mentioned that antisemitism was a major problem at the fascist conference in Italy, even if Sana didn't have that problem himself, purportedly
That doesn't mean its genocidal levels of it though. It's quite possible Germany still puts them in ghettos but doesn't have it as an actual goal to kill them all.
 
It's simple really, something will overshadow Hitler the same way that hitler overshadowed Kaiser Wilhelm in OTL (like how kaiserboos tend to seen as slightly better than wehraboos).
This, combined with earlier hint that all European documents on WW1 casualties sans Britain were destroyed, led to me believed that instead of a worse WW2, we will have a WW3 which involves tactical use of nukes, and future historians saw the radioactive mess that is former Europe, say "well fascists are bad but at least they didn't destroy the continent like those commies did."
 
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This, combined with earlier hint that all European documents on WW1 casualties sans Britain were destroyed, led to me believed that instead of a worse WW2, we will have a WW3 which involves tactical use of nukes, and future historians saw the radioactive mess that is former Europe, say "well fascists are bad but at least they didn't destory the continent like those commies did."
hmmmmm yeah, the subtitle is 'the united states in the world wars' not 'the united states in wwi and wwii', after all
 
That doesn't mean its genocidal levels of it though. It's quite possible Germany still puts them in ghettos but doesn't have it as an actual goal to kill them all.
If you avoid Reinhard Heydrich, you avoid the OTL Holocaust. While he's not the architect per se, he was the guy who made the Nazis what you think of when you hear that word.
 
If you avoid Reinhard Heydrich, you avoid the OTL Holocaust. While he's not the architect per se, he was the guy who made the Nazis what you think of when you hear that word.
I've read that his brother, previously a hard-core Nazi, read something in his papers that made the brother then turn hard against the Nazis.
 
I've read that his brother, previously a hard-core Nazi, read something in his papers that made the brother then turn hard against the Nazis.
Heinz Heydrich is interesting to me just because he sort of shows the limits of ideology. As you said, he was a legitimate admirer of Hitler, which must have come with some sort of extreme antisemitism and support for Drang nach osten, but at the same time he knew evil when he saw it and when he saw what his brother had been doing it fundamentally didn't matter that the victims were Jews, he knew it was wrong and that he had to fight it with everything he had. His story is honestly one of the most uplifting things in WWII to me despite how it ended; he shows that, from being a cog in the greatest evil in history, legitimate redemption- not the lies of Speer or the self interest of most of the nobility but a man actually giving his life to save as many from the evil he had been a part of as possible- is real, not just something out of Star Wars or Avatar.
 
Part 5-1
Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

A TL by RamscoopRaider

Part V: The Downwards Stairs




The road to hell is paved with good intentions-Portuguese Proverb

By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes- William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV Scene I

As thou sowest, so shalt thou reap- Cicero, De Oratore II. 65

If you would have peace prepare for war- Vegetius, De Re Militari

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure- Benjamin Franklin, Philadelphia, 1736

He who hesitates is lost- Joseph Addison, Cato: A Tragedy




…Adolf Hitler quickly proved himself to be a rather different sort of dictator than Erasmo Sanna, with whom he was often compared. Indeed in the early days Hitler was considered to be functionally a German knock off of Sanna by most observers, a notion seen as ludicrous today. The SVP had a great deal of similarity in aesthetics to the Fascist party, and in the broad sense the two regimes did resemble each other more than strictly necessary for authoritarian regimes.

Personally however Hitler was a much different man than Sanna and that showed in his administration. Sanna was a careful and pragmatic schemer with a view to the long term and a clear picture on how others thought. He was careful to always have some sort of opposition visible if powerless, and in his massaging of electoral results never pushed the Fascists above 65%. He was careful to assure foreign diplomats that he really didn’t mean that rhetoric about Italian irredentism and it was all red meat for the voters. He gave every impression that he could be worked with and was a reasonable man.

Hitler by contrast rigged margins of 81% in the 1933 Reichstag election and 93% in the subsequent referendum on the German withdrawal from the Versailles treaty. He soon made all other parties illegal and began quashing dissent on a level not seen outside the Soviet Union. His bellicose rhetoric raised alarms across Europe and he did little to reassure foreign politicians about his intentions.

Furthermore Hitler immediately began an unsustainable military buildup along with an extensive public works program. Unlike the program in Italy aimed at capital improvements and long term buildup, Hitler’s program was aimed more at showing off. Hitler funded grandiose new buildings and a massive highway network in a country where few people owned cars. His military buildup, while more practical, still was rather more wasteful than the Italian version…

…Hitler, despite his rigging of the votes, erosion of civil rights, suppression of dissent and bellicose rhetoric was genuinely popular in the early days of his regime. His public works programs while built on glorified IOUs from the very beginning, a practice admittedly continued from Weimar, did reduce unemployment to minimal levels and provide a number of bragging points. He publicly pulled out of the Versailles treaty and got away with it. He cleaned up Berlin, turning it from a modern Sodom to a respectable city once more and doing the same to parts of northern Germany that were arguably even worse than Berlin…

…Hitler’s first concentration camps opened within a matter of months of him taking power. Originally meant to hold the hordes of communists arrested in the post Kaiserhof attack. This was soon followed by Socialists and Anarchists, then Social Democrats and Trade Unionists, then homosexuals, dissidents and certain religious minorities…

…Hitler was a great admirer of the American Eugenics movement and quickly put Eugenics laws into place stricter than those of most American states. These laws would tighten and eventually include compulsory euthanasia for certain cases, a step no American state would or could take. Revulsion at this was part of the reason for the temporary rollback of eugenics laws in the 50’s and early 60’s and their abolition in the 90’s and 2000’s …

…One of the most dramatic areas where Hitler differed from his predecessors was Poland. Unlike the Weimar government Hitler was willing to recognize the Polish state and deal with them. He ended the ongoing trade war and normalized relations. Soon afterwards he signed a short term non-aggression pact with Polish strongman Józef Pilsudski. Given his later behavior and the private thoughts revealed in his diaries this is surprising, however it served as the start of the gradual erosion of the post WWI security order in Europe and temporarily secured one border of the German state…

-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009



…One of the greatest questions people have when learning about the leadup to the Second World War is why no one did anything about Hitler. Up until the very eve of the war Germany was substantially weaker than France and could not hope to win even or short war with her, thus why didn’t the French do something about Hitler. There were ample provocations, starting with the referendum rejecting Versailles, or even the halt in reparations before that. Given a causus belli and the presence of a belligerent revanchist surely a preemptive attack was the right thing to do?...

…France’s political instability and financial weakness, along with the massive losses she took in the first war, left her unwilling to act without Britain. Britain for her part thought the Versailles Treaty was unfair and that Germany was right to withdraw from it, thus she was doing nothing wrong. Furthermore with Germany out of the way elements in Britain saw France, Britain’s traditional enemy, as her next likely foe and viewed France’s attempt to build an anti-German coalition with alarm. This combined with the Depression saw the German withdrawal from Versailles being met with nothing.

The financial climate meant that there was not even an increase in military spending to match Hitler’s military buildup…

…Given the trauma of the Frist World War no one thought anyone would be willing to risk putting the world on the road to another hell like that…

-Excerpt from Why did they do THAT!?! Historical Madness in Context: Volume III, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2015
 
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…Hitler was a great admirer of the American Eugenics movement and quickly put Eugenics laws into place stricter than those of most American states.
Thank you for including this line; it's becoming more acceptable to shine the spotlight on this, but it's still a rare person that knows and admits it.

Well done reveal on Hitler, seems like he's doing a bit better at his plans this time around - reckless spender but not having a lot of pushback yet compared with Britain and the US's OTL 1930s realization of the Second Charnel House upcoming.
 
Would eugenics laws really be abolished if they staid in place till early 2000s? It should’ve become a normalized practice with minimal outrage if they were in place for a century. Especially if American never went as far as Hitler.
Also considering German Eugenics is what caused outrage and is so prominent does that mean Holocaust doesn’t happen in this timeline or that it’s never found out?
 
Would eugenics laws really be abolished if they staid in place till early 2000s? It should’ve become a normalized practice with minimal outrage if they were in place for a century.
Yeah no, laws that repress any major group of people will always have people fighting them. If we're going by your logic Jim Crow laws should've never been abolished as they'd become a normalized practice.
 
Hm. Hitler cutting deals with Poland? Now that's just strange as all get-out.
As @RedSword12 stated, this actually happened OTL. For Hitler, he seemed to do this to, at first, deal a blow to the French alliance system, and then later on, pave the way to make Poland a subordinate ally of Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union. Poland itself was willing to agree to the declaration as during the 1930s when the Versailles order was disintegrating and the western powers were inclined towards appeasement, it was seeking to normalize relations with both Germany and the Soviet Union (of course, not at the cost of territorial integrity or independence) to disincline either of them from attacking Poland.
 
As @RedSword12 stated, this actually happened OTL. For Hitler, he seemed to do this to, at first, deal a blow to the French alliance system, and then later on, pave the way to make Poland a subordinate ally of Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union. Poland itself was willing to agree to the declaration as during the 1930s when the Versailles order was disintegrating and the western powers were inclined towards appeasement, it was seeking to normalize relations with both Germany and the Soviet Union (of course, not at the cost of territorial integrity or independence) to disincline either of them from attacking Poland.
Yes, I was already corrected about my misapprehensions. The point was made.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
…The scar faced former Senior Private known as Adolf Hitler was an unlikely leader for Germany. Born in Austria to a minor customs official he never completed high school and lived the life a starving artist for several years after failing to get into the prestigious Vienna School of Fine Arts eventually drifting into Munich. Medically exempted from service in the Austrian Army he volunteered for the Bavarian one and was accepted due to an administrative error. He spent the war as a courier attached to a regimental headquarters, was wounded in 1915, 1917 and 1919, and decorated with the Iron Cross Second Class in 1914 upgraded to First Class in 1919. He was hospitalized during the last Entente offensives from the shell burst that left him with his distinctive facial scarring and only released after peace broke out.

Discharged in Munich in 1920 he drifted around Bavaria after having to leave Munich due to high cost of living. In 1922 he attended a meeting of the German Socialist Parts in Ingolstadt and was immediately hooked. The party leadership in turn discovered his unique talent for oratory and he rose to lead the party’s propaganda department by the end of 1923. At this time he met the failed writer Joseph Goebbels and recruited him into the party. The two men formed a formidable team and Hitler’s charisma along with Goebbels skills enabled the explosive growth of the German Socialist Party.

Hitler however did not get along with the leadership of the party for both ideological and personal reasons and from 1926 on was increasingly excluded from administrative matters, kept on only for the brilliance of his oratory and fear of splitting the party. The creation of the German National Front in 1931 enabled the party leadership to begin working to squeeze out Hitler without fear of him defecting to another far right party. By the Kaiserhof meeting in 1932 this was almost complete, with Hitler’s dismissal planned for right after the 1933 elections, hence Hitler’s absence from it on that fateful day…

…Hitler’s elevation to Chancellor saw him immediately issue an emergency decree banning the German Communist Party and suspending freedom of the press and habeus corpus. He then had an enabling act passed by the Reichstag to transfer legislative powers to the cabinet for a matter of years. With the Communist deputies absent only the SPD voted against it as the other parties decided it was necessary to put a damper on the chaos of the Weimar Republic…

…Following the Enabling Act Hitler took the chance to merge the German Peoples Party along with the other parties of the National Front into the Socialist Volks Party, the SVP. It was this party that would contest and win the election of 1933, which Hitler allowed to give his new party a sense of legitimacy…


-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009


…Avoiding Hitler is of course the biggest WWII related POD there is as he is responsible for starting it. Utopian Counterfactuals often start with avoiding him, WWI often being seen as enough of a horror to avoid another world war without someone like him. Other better thought out ones, usually from Britain or the European continent have a more nuanced view of what a world without Hitler would look at, though of necessity far better for Europe than ours.

Mostly however replacing Hitler is used to make things worse in popular counterfactuals. It is something of a trope that attempts to improve history by removing Hitler always fail miserably. Either a more competent Volkist or Psuedo-Volkist replaces him or worse his absence leads to Germany becoming Communist.

This of course misses the parts of Hitler that made him so dangerous. His success was not the result of careful planning and manipulation but recklessness backed by freakish levels of luck. A “competent” dictator of Germany would not have ran the German economy to the edge of default multiple times in a hideously rushed militarization. A “competent” dictator would not have risked war with half of Europe with an underprepared army against the advice of his own generals not once or twice but three times. Thus most “competent Hitler replacements” do almost everything the same as Hitler in order for a Second World War to occur with only a few details…

…A somewhat worrying trend is for authors on the far-right to have “like Hitler in every way but not genocidal” Hitler stand ins that lead Germany to glorious victories….

…Similarly Hitler has a habit of showing up in positions of power in counterfactuals he has no right to be in. His becoming chancellor was due to his being at the right place at the right time, no more. He had a talent for oratory and winning the respect of his underlings, but his time in the DSP showed his difficulties working with equals and superiors, along with a somewhat lacking work ethic and notable personal foils. Outside the very specific circumstances that occurred he has no path to becoming Chancellor of Germany, let alone some of the odd positions he keeps being found in…

…While unlikely to come into being and even less likely to survive any length of time a Communist Germany is perhaps the only thing that could be realistically worse than real life’s Volkist Germany. German industry and science mated to Russian resources and manpower would be a nightmare scarcely imaginable…


-Excerpt from Sideways: An Examination of Common Divergences in Counterfactual History, Gate Publishing, Atlanta, 2016




This Concludes Part IV of Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

Part V: The Downward Stairs will begin shortly









Okay here is what I think is the most implausible part of the TL, at least so far, Hitler still ending up Chancellor. Basically to get a 1940's WWII as nasty as possible for the US with what I see as a reasonable 1914 POD that still results in an Entente victory in WWI you need a German leader who acts more like Hitler than is reasonable, and rather than just create another Notler, I decided screw it I'm going with Hitler even if the plausibility sucks

No, no, if nothing else as the resolution to a drawn out mystery, that was great. Threw back my head and laughed.

Probably influenced by the guessing game central to the timeline: How does post-'90s historiography become what it does?

Speaking of which, it's been amazing to binge and watch Certain Pointed Hints be totally ignored. "Hilariously wrong," was it?
 
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