Francis III, Duke of Brittany and Mary I of England?

[ordinarylittleme]

The two were betrothed as children before this arrangement was broken off. What if it hadn't been broken off? What if the two married in 1533, right before Mary was declared illegitimate?

And because Francis' father and brother had seven and ten children, respectively, and Mary's mother was pregnant six times, I reached the conclusion that five children for Francis and Mary isn't particularly impossible.

Francis III, Duke of Brittany (b. 1518) m. Mary, Princess of England (b. 1516)

1) Louis (b. 1534)
2) Katherine (b. 1535)
3) John (b. 1536)
4) Francis (b. 1538)
5) Isabella (b. 1539)

What changes from this point onwards?

 

[pandizzy]

Most likely, mary would not be declared illegitimate

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Most likely, mary would not be declared illegitimate

Well, no, she couldn't be without causing massive offence to France. But what will Henry do when she starts popping out his grandchildren who will have a strong claim to England's throne?

 

[kasumigenx]

Most likely, mary would not be declared illegitimate

Francis' allies could get rid of Kate of Aragon.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Francis' allies could get rid of Kate of Aragon.

Why would they do THAT?

 

[kasumigenx]

Why would they do THAT?

People who wanted to have the hand of Renee of France for Henry VIII...those are the ones that I am talking about.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

People who wanted to have the hand of Renee of France for Henry VIII...those are the ones that I am talking about.

Except by 1533, Renée's already married

 

[kasumigenx]

Except by 1533, Renée's already married

Perhaps he will wait for Kate's death.

 

[Victoria]

Francis' allies could get rid of Kate of Aragon.

That's not in his interests. If Henry VIII remarries, he can have a son and Mary is no longer heiress. And if Henry VIII got married to Renée, he would try to claim Brittany through her so that marriage isn't convenient for the French either.

 

[kasumigenx]

That's not in his interests. If Henry VIII remarries, he can have a son and Mary is no longer heiress. And if Henry VIII got married to Renée, he would try to claim Brittany through her so that marriage isn't convenient for the French either.

Perhaps Henry VIII can marry a French proxy in exchange for support for annulment.

 

[dragonstoned]

Perhaps Henry VIII can marry a French proxy in exchange for support for annulment.

But why would the French support the annulment? Mary staying legitimate and heiress is better for them, as one of her sons with Francis could one day rule England.

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

The two were betrothed as children before this arrangement was broken off. What if it hadn't been broken off? What if the two married in 1533, right before Mary was declared illegitimate?

I think you need to give Mary at least one healthy (full) brother in order for a match with the dauphin to go through. And it certainly wouldn't go through in 1533 if the situation is as IOTL. Like, it's highly implausible that anyone is going to get to marry Mary in 1533, the same year in which her father married Anne Boleyn and in which the future Elizabeth I was born.

 

[Titania's Rose]

Hortense is right. Henry's only going to allow Mary to marry as high as the Dauphin of France if he's got at least one healthy son. Catherine's position as Queen needs to be relatively (or completely) secure as well. France wouldn't react well to any shenanigans over the Dauphine's legitimacy after all.

Say that either the 1513 son survives his infancy (he's likely named Henry given Hal's naming tendencies iOTL) or that the Duke of Cornwall doesn't actually die in infancy. If you want one of Mary's kids to inherit England it'll get more difficult once Prince Henry's an adult but he can always have an accident jousting or hunting and die as a young man.

Depending on when this happens it might either break Henry's spirit (to lose a beloved and cherished only son) or result in him attempting to set aside Catherine (if she's still alive at this time) and remarry. Which would threaten Mary's chances at inheriting.

 

[ranichi17]

The only way I can see France not throwing a fit over Henry attempting an annulment is if Henry promises to keep to the "good faith" clause and keep Mary legitimate even if the annulment pushes through.

Now the question will be how Charles reacts to England allying with France via his cousin's marriage.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I think you need to give Mary at least one healthy (full) brother in order for a match with the dauphin to go through. And it certainly wouldn't go through in 1533 if the situation is as IOTL. Like, it's highly implausible that anyone is going to get to marry Mary in 1533, the same year in which her father married Anne Boleyn and in which the future Elizabeth I was born.

Why would she require a full brother for the match to go through? They were betrothed when she did not have any brother. 1533 is a stretch, I rationalized it in that Henry and Anne would rather Mary get out of the country while they marry and produce (hopefully for them) sons so nobody can fight for her claim tbh

 

[ordinarylittleme]

People who wanted to have the hand of Renee of France for Henry VIII...those are the ones that I am talking about.

If Henry's daughter is already married to Francis' son, he has the English alliance already, why would Renee then marry Henry 8th

 

[kasumigenx]

If Henry's daughter is already married to Francis' son, he has the English alliance already, why would Renee then marry Henry 8th

Because that is what the people who want a French alliance want.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Because that is what the people who want a French alliance want.

OK, true. I read earlier responses stating that a 1533 marriage is unlikely. But it's the earliest that the Dauphin Francis will get to marry, I think, any earlier and he's a little too young to consummate this marriage

 

[curlyhairedhippie]

Why would she require a full brother for the match to go through? They were betrothed when she did not have any brother. 1533 is a stretch, I rationalized it in that Henry and Anne would rather Mary get out of the country while they marry and produce (hopefully for them) sons so nobody can fight for her claim tbh

Yes, Mary was betrothed to the dauphin in 1519 but I don’t think Henry had any intention of keeping that arrangement in place. It was just to seal the peace with France for the time being. Besides, I do not believe that he and Katherine had yet given up hope of a son by then either. And as for this scenario, I think it would be absolute folly for Henry and Anne to allow Mary to marry in France. Because the minute that their (or their descendant’s) relationship with France sours, the French can pull out Mary’s claim (or that of her children) to threaten Henry and Anne (or their children).

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Yes, Mary was betrothed to the dauphin in 1519 but I don’t think Henry had any intention of keeping that arrangement in place. It was just to seal the peace with France for the time being. Besides, I do not believe that he and Katherine had yet given up hope of a son by then either. And as for this scenario, I think it would be absolute folly for Henry and Anne to allow Mary to marry in France. Because the minute that their (or their descendant’s) relationship with France sours, the French can pull out Mary’s claim (or that of her children) to threaten Henry and Anne (or their children).

And that'd cause the ton of drama that I live for tbh because can you imagine Francophile Anne Boleyn who served the former queen Claude having to realize "oh shit this is going to be a threat". There was another thread that involved Mary fleeing to France to marry Francis I think

True. I suppose the only way this match happens is if either France threatens to link with Spain, or Mary has a full brother. Let's go with HDoC doesn't die in infancy because that's easier...