England Actually Enslaves the Irish

Ficboy

Banned
Note: This is not meant to promulgate the Irish slaves canard. We already know that it is a myth used by specific groups and certain unsavory types created by an anti-Semite not to mention built on exaggerated and outright fabricated information . This is only to meant hypothesize what if England had actually enslaved all of the Irish when they sent them to their colonies in the Caribbean and North America.

In OTL, England took control of Ireland in the 1500s-1600s during the Tudor conquests though they were already present there as early as the late 1100s when the Normans established a lordship. By the 1620s, Irish laborers were being sent to English colonies in the Caribbean albeit this was by choice. In the 1640s during the Cromwellian Commonwealth period, the Irish were rising up against the English and Scottish which were easily crushed and led to forced migration to the New World consisting of political prisoners, vagrants and so-called "desirables" which were men, women and children. Barbados in particular was where many of these Irish indentured servants were being sent and thus it gave birth to the expression "Barbadosed" though they were also sent to other places such as the Leeward Islands (Antigua, Montserrat, Nevis and St. Kitts) and to an extent America. Irish indentured servants in the Barbados and the Caribbean were treated terribly by their English planters and even though they weren't slaves nevertheless their conditions could more or less be considered as such and there were even some runaways no less. Montserrat was the only exception where Irish actually came here by choice. In general almost all Irish sent to the Caribbean and America were indentured servants that were mistreated by the English.

Let's just say that England actually did commence a slave trade of Irish in the Caribbean and North America as punishment for their constant rebellions. How would this affect Irish culture, race relations and the Irish diaspora in general.
 

Dolan

Banned
Trying to enslave Irish Catholics would meant France, Spain, HRE, and basically everyone who professed as Catholics to Europe will go on Crusade against Evil English Heretics.

Africans were enslaved IOTL because basically nobody cares about them.

Irish? Well, it would go on for a couple of years until a large Crusading Army land on British Isle and installed a Catholic Monarch there, probably also set up an independent Irish Kingdom too.
 
Trying to enslave Irish Catholics would meant France, Spain, HRE, and basically everyone who professed as Catholics to Europe will go on Crusade against Evil English Heretics.

Africans were enslaved IOTL because basically nobody cares about them.

Irish? Well, it would go on for a couple of years until a large Crusading Army land on British Isle and installed a Catholic Monarch there, probably also set up an independent Irish Kingdom too.

I doubt it, we are long past the age of crusading y this time and these countries have their own problems.
 

Dolan

Banned
I doubt it, we are long past the age of crusading y this time and these countries have their own problems.
And according to the OP, the timeline of Englishmen trying to enslave the Irish would coincidence with The Wars of The Religions.

Of course the "Crusading Army" part is an exaggeration, but trust me, such brutality against the Irish (who have many served in armies of the Continental Kingdoms like France and Spain), would give the Catholics something they could agree on, details may vary, but removing the Evil English Heretics from the throne would be the chief objective.
 
And according to the OP, the timeline of Englishmen trying to enslave the Irish would coincidence with The Wars of The Religions.

Of course the "Crusading Army" part is an exaggeration, but trust me, such brutality against the Irish (who have many served in armies of the Continental Kingdoms like France and Spain), would give the Catholics something they could agree on, details may vary, but removing the Evil English Heretics from the throne would be the chief objective.
If they could they would have already done so.Truth is they tried and failed repeatedly.
 
OP I think the most realistic answer is that while people arent suited to tropical climates and thus made bad slaves.

English landowners would have switched over to African slaves because they are more efficient.
 
I doubt it, we are long past the age of crusading y this time and these countries have their own problems.
Slaves in Africa were traded by other Africans or Arabs and sold overseas in relatively discreet and controllable numbers. Enslaving whole communities or a whole country is a quantum leap in difficulty and a massive security problem. It is also illegal under Cannon Law (although strictly speaking slavery itself was illegal under cannon law) but enslaving Christians and Catholics is practically more serious. Its hard to see what is gained from this that the UK cant get from indentured or penal labour, without all the down sides.
 

Dolan

Banned
It is also illegal under Cannon Law (although strictly speaking slavery itself was illegal under cannon law) but enslaving Christians and Catholics is practically more serious.
That's why it would be a very blatantly "Evil" action that the Catholic Kings would found themselves having a pretty much justified Casus Belli to carve up English Domains for themselves while setting up a weak, Catholic puppet ruler on English Throne to ensure England won't be a problem further down the line.

And with proliferation of Irish Mercenaries under Spanish employment at that time, I'm sure the Habsburgs would definitely like to install their most trustworthy Irish Mercenary Commander (like Hugh O'Neill to the Philip II of Spain) to be the King of Independent Ireland. Even better and more Ironic, that they'll install an Irish King to see those English subjects being cowed.
 
Many Irish were sent to the Americas under Indentured servitude. I'm not sure you can get the entire island under that umbrella either. This event seems almost ASB territory.
 

Dolan

Banned
Many Irish were sent to the Americas under Indentured servitude. I'm not sure you can get the entire island under that umbrella either. This event seems almost ASB territory.
Actually, considering Oliver Cromwell and the Puritan hardliners of the English Civil War...

Not that ASB, although they would basically reworded that into Irish Catholics, which will made every Catholic Monarchs in Europe with beef against England definitely try to remove them.
 

Ficboy

Banned
I think we need to look at the deeper implications of England actually making all the Irish slaves: How race relations are affected in North America and the Caribbean. The Irish in OTL's 19th century were not seen as white at least to the WASP establishment and they'd be hated for their Catholicism. In TTL, these sentiments would carry over with these Irish slaves in the New World only this time it would be far worse and they would be put on a level similar to African slaves as far as being below the social caste system was concerned. It would drastically alter New World chattel slavery as well since now anyone who is Black and Irish Catholic even if they are free would be discriminated by WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) and this would also alter how American slavery is handled throughout the 19th century.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
I think we need to look at the deeper implications of England actually making all the Irish slaves: How race relations are affected in North America and the Caribbean. The Irish in OTL's 19th century were not seen as white at least to the WASP establishment and they'd be hated for their Catholicism. In TTL, these sentiments would carry over with these Irish slaves in the New World only this time it would be far worse and they would be put on a level similar to African slaves as far as being below the social caste system was concerned. It would drastically alter New World chattel slavery as well since now anyone who is Black and Irish Catholic even if they are free would be discriminated by WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) and this would also alter how American slavery is handled throughout the 19th century.
Irish immigrants would go to anywhere other than North America, or risk becoming slaves when they arrive.
 

Ficboy

Banned
Irish immigrants would go to anywhere other than North America, or risk becoming slaves when they arrive.
All of Ireland would be under occupation by England/Britain in this timeline it means the Irish don't have much of a chance of go elsewhere outside of runaways.
 
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Trying to enslave Irish Catholics would meant France, Spain, HRE, and basically everyone who professed as Catholics to Europe will go on Crusade against Evil English Heretics.

Africans were enslaved IOTL because basically nobody cares about them.

Irish? Well, it would go on for a couple of years until a large Crusading Army land on British Isle and installed a Catholic Monarch there, probably also set up an independent Irish Kingdom too.
I am not sure anyone in Europen gave a dam about the Irish.
The Irish were taken as slaves along with other Europeans to the Barbary coast by the pirates there.
 
OP I think the most realistic answer is that while people arent suited to tropical climates and thus made bad slaves.

English landowners would have switched over to African slaves because they are more efficient.
I not sure that is true. I think both Africans and Irish had very high mortality in those conditions.
In the case of slaves coming from Africa, there was a greater supply to replace those killed by the conditions.
The Irish having a common language would make rebellion easier. OTL different language groups from Africa were mixed so they would not have a common language to make them easier to control.
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