Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas

Always been a fan of battlecruisers - and armored cruisers as well (even though those were an evolutionary dead-end). Under the proper circumstances they had value, it was only when put in poor tactical positions their flaws became apparent.
 
Thanks for the story - it's been great fun to follow, and it was basically this thread that got me commenting again instead of just lurking occasionally.
It would be good to see a follow-up sometime - you've set up a very interesting - and very different - 1930s.
All the best for whatever you decide to do next.
 
++Snip++

After she fell out of line in the later stages of the ‘Dash to the north’, SMS Derfflinger had turned southeast to try to make for home. As the night drew in the British battlecruisers had sailed just six miles west of her, and had it been daylight, she would have been easy prey for their guns. They might have had another chance later, as they engaged the Stuttgart just a few miles to the south (at first the British believed Stuttgart was the damaged Derfflinger). However, even without the enemy, Derfflinger's fate was sealed; by 10.05, it was clear that there was nothing more that could be done, as water continued to force its way aft from the flooded bow compartments. Destroyers were ordered to come alongside to take the crew off, and by 10.24, the waterline had reached the base of A-turret. The hard-fought ship rolled over a few minutes later, virtually unseen.
++Snip
Nooooooo..... No Iron Dog!
 
I am loving this timeline, especially the details as to WHY certain designs were chosen & which compromises were made to enable them to be built. I think that the RN should split its future capital ship program into two, with 2/3rds going to BB designs & the rest to CV designs as it becomes more apparent that aircraft can provide a more flexible option in the commerce protection/raiding role than big guns. Since so many in the higher echelons of the Admiralty have a background in hunting, they could be persuaded that the carriers aircraft be used like hunting hounds; to harry & bring the bigger game to bay, enabling ships like the Fishers to close more quickly, or to take down the smaller game themselves.

As for the earlier comments regarding the dreaded supply office:
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I wonder if the Fishers could cause the treaty to collapse-8x16”, 30 knots, 11” belt on 23,000 tons... somebody will call BS. Hopefully the US isn’t too mad.
 
I wonder if the Fishers could cause the treaty to collapse-8x16”, 30 knots, 11” belt on 23,000 tons... somebody will call BS. Hopefully the US isn’t too mad.
Well apparently in 1930 the RN brought plans of a 12" gunned BB on about 25K. 12x12" in four triples, 25kts and armoured against 12" shellfire.
The USN called bullsh1t but the RN plans actually worked out. I think it was sloping armour, cutting edge boilers, new armour schemes etc (All of which were sensitive so left off the drawing) to get it done and there was 'massage room' as per - It was also a dry weight with no munitions, fuel, water, provisions, crew etc, but the RN called it 'normal' displacement.

EDIT: I can't multiply... Not enough fingers 🤣
 
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and the partecipation to the spanish civil war (at least in the same manner of OTL) will not happen.
Wow. That's a big butterfly! No Italian support for Franco, and Spain stays democratic, and will be on the WAlly side in *WWII. Without Ethiopia, Italy will likely be, too. ....
Inconceivable's not bad
"I do not think it means what you think it means". :) ;) :p
No HMS Inflammable?
No, no. That's the third Exploder class Walther cycle sub.
 
Well apparently in 1930 the RN brought plans of a 12" gunned BB on about 25K. 12x12" in three triples, 25kts and armoured against 12" shellfire.
The USN called bullsh1t but the RN plans actually worked out. I think it was sloping armour, cutting edge boilers, new armour schemes etc (All of which were sensitive so left off the drawing) to get it done and there was 'massage room' as per - It was also a dry weight with no munitions, fuel, water, provisions, crew etc, but the RN called it 'normal' displacement.
Err, if they actually got 12 x 12" guns in three triple turrets I can see why the USN called BS. :)
 
Wow. That's a big butterfly! No Italian support for Franco, and Spain stays democratic, and will be on the WAlly side in *WWII. Without Ethiopia, Italy will likely be, too. ....
Much depend on the various developement in the interwar years, as ITTL Europe will be absolutely different from the one that we know without Nazi, fascist and communist. Simply an italian remaining a democratic nation will hardly spent so much in supporting Franco and/or be so aggressive towards Abyssinia to invade and all that are further money and resources saved.

At the moment the biggest 'probable' future point of contention that can evolve in a conflict are:
- French and Russian revanchism
- French possible evolution in a fascist-like nation (almost happened in OTL and ITTL there are a lot more reason)
- Japan still being Japan
- German new little empire in east europe being a little restless

Out of the box event:
USA becoming a fascist or communist/socialist nation in the 20's/30's as with no communism and the war ending earlier, the socilist in the USA will probably avoid being litteraly destroyed by Wilson and Palme
 
I was thinking earlier about this TL and the refit program for the RN in the future.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but by the Mid 30's the RN fleet is, in terms of capital ships going to look like this

4 x Royal Class Battleships - 8 x 15-inch guns
5 x Queen Elisabeth Class Battleships - 8 x 15-inch guns
2 x Renown Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 15-inch guns
2 x Hood Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 15-inch guns
1 x Rodney class Fast Battleship/Battlecruiser - 8 x 16-inch guns
3 x Nelson Class Battleships - 9 x 16-inch guns
4 x Fisher Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 16-inch guns
1 x Furious Class Battlecruiser - 6 x 18-inch guns.

Fisher and Furious - Of these, the Fishers are going to be the most modern but they're probably the class that has the least potential growth in them, alongside the Furious, as they're built to tight confines. Upgrades for the Fishers will probably be limited to more modern AA guns and any advances in gunnery systems. The Furious is a bit of an odd one, she's very well armed but honestly I doubt she'll be of that much use, yes she's a magnificent showpiece but there's not much room to modernize her and vast tracts of her immense hull are without protection, making her a veritable eggshell armed with very big hammers. If she's still in active service I'd expect modifications to her fire control and probably the elimination of any torpedo tubes and her conning tower with a redesigned bridge. Any extra armour that can be added to her decks over her vitals is needed, and she'll need an AA fit. But this will be tricky.

Renown's - The Renown's are among the oldest ships who will have seen a lot of active service and by the 30's they're going to be getting worn out and have been basically rendered obsolete by the arrival of the Fishers. The question then comes in two parts

1 - Do we need to keep them in service?
2 - If so what modernisations need to be done.

The answer to 2 is 'a lot' the engines will need to be overhauled and refitted and that's an expensive job. The main guns will probably need their elevation increased and armour over vitals will need to be added. I can't recall if TTL's Renowns were retrofitted with a 9-inch belt as per OTL's Renowns, or if they still have their 7-inch belts. In truth the Renown's are going to need pretty much what amounts to a complete rebuild if you wish to keep them in service. And this is going to be expensive and take up valuable yard space. Or they could just do what's needed, with a plan to retire them fully by say 1939 and, in the mean time, just add some AA guns, replace any casemate mounts with 4-inch guns on the upper deck for heavy AA defence and update their fire control systems.

Royal and Queen Elisabeth class - Apart from the Fishers, the R's and QE's represent the two largest homegenous groups of capital ships in the RN, but like the Renowns, they're now going to be old and getting worn out and will need work. The R's have far more value than the OTL R's thanks to their more useful speed but this is a big batch of 9 ships that will need work. I'd assume that both classes would have various overhauls and refits similar to the OTL QE's in the 20s and 30's, marring their handsome profiles with that ugly trunked funnel for one thing. You can't really get rid of either class as you could probably retire the Renown's as they're a major chunk of your battle fleet. So what kind of refits would you want? The R's probably can't quite have something akin to the full Valiant/QE refit of OTL but they could get something close. But this is going to be pricey simply because there's a LOT of ships, and they're gonna take up a lot of slips. But if the RN does nothing then these 9 ships will basically be facing block obsolesence.

Hoods and Rodney - Save the Nelwoods, and Fishers, these are your next most valuable and useful ships, a good combination of speed and firepower and its this trio that should be a priority for any major overhaul's and refits. Again any underwater torpedo tubes should be eliminated, the boilers should be overhauled or replaced with more modern lighter units, additional armour etc and an augmented AA fit along with the elimination of any casemate mounts for secondarys for addional AA guns. Basically, do the OTL planned Hood refit for all 3 ships, even have them looking the same so they're a mostly homegenous class. Keep the Renowns in service whilst you're doing it but once all three are done, put the Renowns in reserve or decommission and scrap them.

Nelwoods - The most modern battleships you've got, I'd assume these will mostly get refits for AA defences, new fire control etc but nothing too major save regular boiler overhauls etc.

Future construction - I would assume the UK's not going to rest on its laurels, you've got 2 classes of battleships that are old and will need replacing and I would assume there's some kind of TTL's 'KGV' being developed at the time and when they come into service, assuming there's no war, it would probably replace the R's, leaving the QE's to soldier on. And that a future, lets say 1942 fleet might look akin to this

5 x Queen Elisabeth Class Battleships - 8 x 15-inch guns
2 x Hood Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 15-inch guns
1 x Rodney class Fast Battleship/Battlecruiser - 8 x 16-inch guns
3 x Nelson Class Battleships - 9 x 16-inch guns
4 x Fisher Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 16-inch guns
4/5 x NEW BUILD BATTLESHIPS (TTL KGV analogues)
4 x NEW BUILD BATTLESHIPS UNDER CONSTRUCTION (TTL Lion analogues) - will replace QE's when they enter service on a 1 for 1 basis.

*Edit*

You could even do a Vanguard, build the hulls, remove the guns from the R's and put them in if you want to keep the 15-inch guns
 
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I was thinking earlier about this TL and the refit program for the RN in the future.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but by the Mid 30's the RN fleet is, in terms of capital ships going to look like this

4 x Royal Class Battleships - 8 x 15-inch guns
5 x Queen Elisabeth Class Battleships - 8 x 15-inch guns
2 x Renown Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 15-inch guns
2 x Hood Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 15-inch guns
1 x Rodney class Fast Battleship/Battlecruiser - 8 x 16-inch guns
2 x Nelson Class Battleships - 9 x 16-inch guns
4 x Fisher Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 16-inch guns
1 x Furious Class Battlecruiser - 6 x 18-inch guns.

Fisher and Furious - Of these, the Fishers are going to be the most modern but they're probably the class that has the least potential growth in them, alongside the Furious, as they're built to tight confines. Upgrades for the Fishers will probably be limited to more modern AA guns and any advances in gunnery systems. The Furious is a bit of an odd one, she's very well armed but honestly I doubt she'll be of that much use, yes she's a magnificent showpiece but there's not much room to modernize her and vast tracts of her immense hull are without protection, making her a veritable eggshell armed with very big hammers. If she's still in active service I'd expect modifications to her fire control and probably the elimination of any torpedo tubes and her conning tower with a redesigned bridge. Any extra armour that can be added to her decks over her vitals is needed, and she'll need an AA fit. But this will be tricky.

Renown's - The Renown's are among the oldest ships who will have seen a lot of active service and by the 30's they're going to be getting worn out and have been basically rendered obsolete by the arrival of the Fishers. The question then comes in two parts

1 - Do we need to keep them in service?
2 - If so what modernisations need to be done.

The answer to 2 is 'a lot' the engines will need to be overhauled and refitted and that's an expensive job. The main guns will probably need their elevation increased and armour over vitals will need to be added. I can't recall if TTL's Renowns were retrofitted with a 9-inch belt as per OTL's Renowns, or if they still have their 7-inch belts. In truth the Renown's are going to need pretty much what amounts to a complete rebuild if you wish to keep them in service. And this is going to be expensive and take up valuable yard space. Or they could just do what's needed, with a plan to retire them fully by say 1939 and, in the mean time, just add some AA guns, replace any casemate mounts with 4-inch guns on the upper deck for heavy AA defence and update their fire control systems.

Royal and Queen Elisabeth class - Apart from the Fishers, the R's and QE's represent the two largest homegenous groups of capital ships in the RN, but like the Renowns, they're now going to be old and getting worn out and will need work. The R's have far more value than the OTL R's thanks to their more useful speed but this is a big batch of 9 ships that will need work. I'd assume that both classes would have various overhauls and refits similar to the OTL QE's in the 20s and 30's, marring their handsome profiles with that ugly trunked funnel for one thing. You can't really get rid of either class as you could probably retire the Renown's as they're a major chunk of your battle fleet. So what kind of refits would you want? The R's probably can't quite have something akin to the full Valiant/QE refit of OTL but they could get something close. But this is going to be pricey simply because there's a LOT of ships, and they're gonna take up a lot of slips. But if the RN does nothing then these 9 ships will basically be facing block obsolesence.

Hoods and Rodney - Save the Nelwoods, and Fishers, these are your next most valuable and useful ships, a good combination of speed and firepower and its this trio that should be a priority for any major overhaul's and refits. Again any underwater torpedo tubes should be eliminated, the boilers should be overhauled or replaced with more modern lighter units, additional armour etc and an augmented AA fit along with the elimination of any casemate mounts for secondarys for addional AA guns. Basically, do the OTL planned Hood refit for all 3 ships, even have them looking the same so they're a mostly homegenous class. Keep the Renowns in service whilst you're doing it but once all three are done, put the Renowns in reserve or decommission and scrap them.

Nelwoods - The most modern battleships you've got, I'd assume these will mostly get refits for AA defences, new fire control etc but nothing too major save regular boiler overhauls etc.

Future construction - I would assume the UK's not going to rest on its laurels, you've got 2 classes of battleships that are old and will need replacing and I would assume there's some kind of TTL's 'KGV' being developed at the time and when they come into service, assuming there's no war, it would probably replace the R's, leaving the QE's to soldier on. And that a future, lets say 1942 fleet might look akin to this

5 x Queen Elisabeth Class Battleships - 8 x 15-inch guns
2 x Hood Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 15-inch guns
1 x Rodney class Fast Battleship/Battlecruiser - 8 x 16-inch guns
2 x Nelson Class Battleships - 9 x 16-inch guns
4 x Fisher Class Battlecruisers - 8 x 16-inch guns
4/5 x NEW BUILD BATTLESHIPS (TTL KGV analogues)
4 x NEW BUILD BATTLESHIPS UNDER CONSTRUCTION (TTL Lion analogues) - will replace QE's when they enter service on a 1 for 1 basis.

*Edit*

You could even do a Vanguard, build the hulls, remove the guns from the R's and put them in if you want to keep the 15-inch guns
You forgot about the improved Nelwood the RN built. Other than that, that’s a pretty good summary of the RN capital ships.
 
There's a 3rd Nelwood? WHats her differences?
From ‘Cruiser Warfare:’
In the end, the 1924 Programme included an slightly improved ‘Nelson’, with a 2’ wide strake of 12” armour added below the belt, better splinter protection for the secondary turrets and hoists, and slightly improved machinery delivering an extra 1,000 horsepower. HMS Trafalgar was laid down in October 1924 and completed in August 1927.
 
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