I hope they stick around. The best thing for the world would be to have the RN go bonkers and bankrupt themselves trying to get 35kn out of a battlecruiser without leaving it unarmored.
No, best would be if they try 40 kt battlecruisers with 1" of structural steel as "armor."
 
Could well see the 'Speed is armour' line fatally disproved here.....similar to Perky50's story 'Jutland Redux' back in 2012/2013 with the consequent changes in ship design.
 
I hope they stick around. The best thing for the world would be to have the RN go bonkers and bankrupt themselves trying to get 35kn out of a battlecruiser without leaving it unarmored.

Nah they would be fine - just would need to spike the Treasurys tea the same 'lead' that the Admiralties tea had been spiked with and get them to raise the 1914 equivalent of MEFO bills.
 
Because the British somehow built even worse battlecruisers than IOTL.


Not really, so far they have an extra Lion in place of a modified I-class, while the overrated Tiger (ITTL Panther) is instead a sister to QM, which I regard as neither an improvement nor a step back.

On the other hand, the German line they’re chasing is very different too.


Aren't those still being built though? Hopefully all the "speed is armor" idiots will get killed or sacked TTL. 6" armor won't even be enough against heavy cruisers.


Yes, R&R have just been laid down, they won’t complete until 1916. From an armour perspective, they’re worse than the real ones. On the other hand, they have an extra turret.
 
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Not really, so far they have an extra Lion in place of a modified I-class, while the overrated Tiger is a sister to QM, which I regard as neither an improvement nor a step back.

On the other hand, the German line they’re chasing is very different too.





Yes, R&R have just been laid down, they won’t complete until 1916. From an armour perspective, they’re worse than the real ones. On the other hand, they have an extra turret.
Welp the survivor((s)neither of the Renowns was ready for service by Jutland otl and adding an extra turret will slow down construction) will be up armored in the interwar period and reengined to free up the displacement for said armor
 
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I hope they stick around. The best thing for the world would be to have the RN go bonkers and bankrupt themselves trying to get 35kn out of a battlecruiser without leaving it unarmored.
If anyone could do it, Fisher and d'Eyncourt could.

No, best would be if they try 40 kt battlecruisers with 1" of structural steel as "armor."
More of a Battle-Destroyer?
(it destroys any chance of anything like a battle taking place, and not in a good way)
 
Could well see the 'Speed is armour' line fatally disproved here.....similar to Perky50's story 'Jutland Redux' back in 2012/2013 with the consequent changes in ship design.
Or equally fatally re-enforced...

Perky50's story was a good read as I recall.
 
Or equally fatally re-enforced...

Perky50's story was a good read as I recall.
Didn't the naval part end with the RN losing half of their BCs and then went on to talk about a land war where better strategic conditions somehow led to a Communist mutiny in France? I mean I liked the naval parts but the TL ended inconclusively.
 
Beatty ends up on the bottom and Sturdee is put in charge of the Battlecruiser squadron at Jutland, now that would be a hilariously disastrous result if there’s any battlecruiser squadron left.
 
Didn't the naval part end with the RN losing half of their BCs and then went on to talk about a land war where better strategic conditions somehow led to a Communist mutiny in France? I mean I liked the naval parts but the TL ended inconclusively.
I can't remember the ending, but the war certainly involved a lot of ships being sunk - exciting, if perhaps a bit over the top.
 
Didn't the naval part end with the RN losing half of their BCs and then went on to talk about a land war where better strategic conditions somehow led to a Communist mutiny in France? I mean I liked the naval parts but the TL ended inconclusively.

The RN didn't loose any ships but Beatty was killed by a bridge hit to Lion and his place was taken by Hood.

The HSF lost Blucher as per OTL but also lost Seydlitz with Hipper on board as the magazine crew were not as quick in TTL compared to OTL.

Perky50's comment on the armouring was


The heavier 12” shells of the Derfflinger had played merry hell with the Princess Royal and as one wag was to say, the lightly armoured ship might have done better if the armour hadn’t been there to slow down the German shells which would have allowed them to pass right through the ship.


Link here

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/jutland-redux.232427/
 
The RN didn't loose any ships but Beatty was killed by a bridge hit to Lion and his place was taken by Hood.

The HSF lost Blucher as per OTL but also lost Seydlitz with Hipper on board as the magazine crew were not as quick in TTL compared to OTL.

Perky50's comment on the armouring was


The heavier 12” shells of the Derfflinger had played merry hell with the Princess Royal and as one wag was to say, the lightly armoured ship might have done better if the armour hadn’t been there to slow down the German shells which would have allowed them to pass right through the ship.


Link here

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/jutland-redux.232427/

In the battle the British had lost two of their battle cruisers to direct fire from the Germans, which had both exploded dramatically as a result of their damage. There were no survivors from either vessel. The third British battle cruiser, HMS Indefatigable, managed to break off but it foundered in sight of Scarborough as the futile efforts to stop the flooding due to damage suffered in the battle failed. A valiant and determined effort by the covering destroyers save a good number of the crew, but including those lost in the actual battle, in the end the losses were substantial.

The Brits lost 3 BCs in the second battle.
 
Beatty ends up on the bottom and Sturdee is put in charge of the Battlecruiser squadron at Jutland, now that would be a hilariously disastrous result if there’s any battlecruiser squadron left.

Surely Hood is next and the obvious choice and by far one of the greatest losses to the RN at Jutland? Sturdee was a 4th Battleship Squadron Commander by 1916 and probably for the best.

While Sturdee is a total twat of a man for what he did in maneuvering against Prince Louis (later Lord Mountbatten) I was not aware of any other traits that would make him unsuitable?
 
Surely Hood is next and the obvious choice and by far one of the greatest losses to the RN at Jutland? Sturdee was a 4th Battleship Squadron Commander by 1916 and probably for the best.

While Sturdee is a total twat of a man for what he did in maneuvering against Prince Louis (later Lord Mountbatten) I was not aware of any other traits that would make him unsuitable?

Sturdee was extremely keen on squadron or independent tactics when in command of large warships. Fisher completely loathed him for what would have been the throwing away of the concentration of firepower. Jellicoe was so afraid of Sturdee breaking off the fleet and running off on a wild goose chase that he placed him directly in the middle of the battlefleet at Jutland.

"In regard to Sturdee, I should never feel safe with him in command of the most important squadron leading the van... I am very sorry to say that I do not trust his judgement in tactical questions. I feel very strongly about this and I know that other flag officers hold the same views."
- Jellicoe.

"It was constantly present in my mind how any individual action of mine in the centre of the very long line could help the action, but I was painfully aware that I was powerless to move out of the line" - Sturdee.

Basically, nobody liked him due to his extremely janky tactics for the era.
 
Sturdee was extremely keen on squadron or independent tactics when in command of large warships. Fisher completely loathed him for what would have been the throwing away of the concentration of firepower. Jellicoe was so afraid of Sturdee breaking off the fleet and running off on a wild goose chase that he placed him directly in the middle of the battlefleet at Jutland.

"In regard to Sturdee, I should never feel safe with him in command of the most important squadron leading the van... I am very sorry to say that I do not trust his judgement in tactical questions. I feel very strongly about this and I know that other flag officers hold the same views."
- Jellicoe.

"It was constantly present in my mind how any individual action of mine in the centre of the very long line could help the action, but I was painfully aware that I was powerless to move out of the line" - Sturdee.

Basically, nobody liked him due to his extremely janky tactics for the era.

Thanks

So this reinforces young Hood getting the job if Beatty gets knocked on the head over Sturdee!
 
The Chase at the Dogger Bank
The Chase at the Dogger Bank

Within minutes of ‘General Chase’ being hoisted, the three leading British battlecruisers had worked themselves up to nearly 27 knots. By 1000, Queen Mary was clearly gaining on Lion as her improved engines allowed her to out-steam the flagship. HMS Panther had not been docked for several months and merely kept pace with Lion, her view of the enemy now blocked by her slightly faster sister.
It was soon clear that the British ships were not swiftly closing on the enemy, and fresh efforts were made to increase speed. However, in the period to 1020 counters in Lion's engine room only registered a 1-2 rpm increase in shaft speed, and it is unlikely that the ship was making much more than 27 knots. Ranges remained uncertain; it was at the extreme edge of the instruments' capabilities, with the best estimate being 22,000 yards.
To the surprise of the bridge crew on Lion, at 1018, Queen Mary opened fire, with a pair of two-gun salvoes from her forward turrets. By this time, the more powerful ship had drawn level, and her own estimate of range was a little shorter, at about 21,500 yards. Even so, gun range would be at least 22,000 yards due to the motion of the German ships while the shells were in flight. It was beyond the distance at which any of Queen Mary's fire-control systems had been designed to take or transmit ranges, and it was even beyond the maximum elevation of the guns' sights. Nevertheless, her fire-control team could still plot range estimates and calculate elevation and training angles. The first shells fell short, and so, without any means of making accurate measurements, her gunnery officer tried increasing the gun range in 200-yard increments. However, by the time it had reached 22,400 yards, the shots were falling well to the side of the German ships, and more trial-and-error firings had to be made to reacquire the line. Not to be outdone, Lion opened fire at 1023. Her first shots were well off for line, but by 1027 she seemed to be getting close.

Aboard the German ships, 1030 was an unnerving time. The two leading British battlecruisers were firing at them from outside the range their own guns could achieve, and the last salvo had actually straddled the Goeben. All Hipper’s ships were forcing their engines, with the Goeben's log reading 26.5 knots, while ahead, the Derfflinger was at 26.8 knots. The only relief was that the best estimates of the rangefinders suggested that the British were closing very slowly.
Moltke’s gunnery officer would later write in this diary; ‘The enemy’s shooting was superb. They opened fire at over 200hm and rapidly found our ships. Their line was very good, and it took only three or four salvos for them to find the range. It is clear that the British must have far superior range-finders than ours.’

With no ability to fire at the enemy in return, Hipper’s squadron could take evasive action, and aside from individual manoeuvring, he changed course two points to starboard, putting his squadron effectively stern-on to the British. This threw off the shooting completely for the next few minutes, as splashes erupted out of the sea to port, falling astern as the Germans moved away from the course the British plotters thought they were following.
By 1050, estimated gun ranges were down to under 20,000 yards for the Germans, and both Moltke and Goeben opened fire. They were still slightly out of range, but there was always the chance of a lucky shot, it was thought the splashes might help to confuse the British gunners. Despite efforts to throw off the British shooting, the three trailing German ships had all been hit; even if perhaps more by luck than judgement. A spectacular flare-up from Goeben's port turret was clear evidence to the British spotters of a hit, while there were clearly fires burning on the other two ships. Goeben's midships magazine had been flooded to prevent fires spreading from the turret, but otherwise Hipper's squadron was still in fighting condition. Most importantly, it was still maintaining speed.

On the British side, demands for ever more steam were being met with the furious activity of the stokers and engineers, who had succeeded in pushing Queen Mary up to what seemed at least 28 knots, with Lion now falling slightly astern. Panther had joined the battle at 1030, adding her four forward guns to the steady rhythm of methodically observed salvoes. The older Indefatigable and Indomitable were now more than two miles astern, with the enemy far out of range of their 12” guns.
At 1054, the Moltke scored first blood for the Germans, when one of her shells hit HMS Lion at an estimated gun range of 19,000 yards. The shell punched clean through the foc'sle and upper deck, before coming to rest in a coal bunker above Boiler Room 2, where thankfully, it did not explode. A few minutes later, a second hit bounced off the 5” armour belt abeam A turret, before on the next salvo, a shell both hit and exploded. Lion’s armour deck kept splinters out of the engine room, but cabins, workshops and storerooms above it were set alight, and smoke billowed over the after part of the ship, adding to the thick black plume from the furiously stoked boilers.

A few minutes after eleven, the British gunners found the range again, and hits were observed in quick succession on both the Goeben and Derfflinger, triggering another series of course changes. In engine rooms, needles were jammed against the stops, as they had been for more than an hour and a half. Everyone knew it was only a matter of time before something went wrong, or the British hit something vital.

On Seydlitz’s bridge, Admiral Hipper was seriously worried. Heading southeast at top speed, the High Seas Fleet should be in sight somewhere ahead, even in only as a smudge on the horizon.
 
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