Divergent Longitudes: an East-West swap scenario

[PobreCesar]

An interesting thought of mine is, how could an analogue to the Pacific Front of WWII would play out in this TL?

If the Japanese US is in the same place as OTL US, things probably go worse for Britain since they're sandwiched between that and Rome without a long island chain as a shield. On the other hand, by the same token, this open the possibility that the British might actually be able to attack the *US mainland, by hitting alt-New England, which I guess would be sort of like if the Japanese go to Oregon OTL.

Actually, if the goal was to have WW2 play out similarly, it might be a good idea to put the US analogue in South America. But I think this timeline isn't going to pursue the parallelism that far.

 

[Born in the USSA]

An interesting thought of mine is, how could an analogue to the Pacific Front of WWII would play out in this TL?

It would just be an Atlantic Front if there's enough parallelism for a WW2 analogue

 

[shearsforest]

An interesting thought of mine is, how could an analogue to the Pacific Front of WWII would play out in this TL?

If we're going by strict OTL parallels (which, as seen previously, get a bit muddy)...

Britain is taken over by an expansionist party, using the population's extreme sense of loyalty as a weapon against the fragile European Republic (definitely known by another name). The disparate European factions, including a communist one, team up to fight againt Britain.

Britain's first move is staging a false flag attack in Manchukuo-equivalent (Schleswig or Normandy, depending on what the Korean equivalent is) before pushing its army into the rest of the continent.

Things go well for Britain as it expands into North Africa through Spain, a helpful ally (meant to be Siam/Thailand) and ends up taking a bunch of territory.

As 1941 rolls around, Britain decides to disable Japan-USA's naval capabilities by attacking their naval base in Bermuda, before attacking their colonies in the Canary Islands and Azores. The attack backfires, drawing Japan-USA's attention towards the war.

Slowly but surely, Britain is pushed back (unfortunately, the Atlantic is sparser than the Pacific, so no island-hopping) until Japan-USA develops nuclear weapons and destroys 2 British cities. Seeing this, and with the United Mongolian People's Republics advancing into British holdings in eastern Europe, Britain formally surrenders.

There's a few problems with this that once again make it clear why I was going for an "only a few areas get parallels" approach.

 

[Analytical Engine]

What about the matter of religion?

China is very religiously diverse, with people adopting practices from multiple traditions without any real contradiction. Similarly, in Japan, people adopt both Shinto and Buddhist practices - including people who, by Western standards, would be classified as atheists.

That...just doesn't work with Christianity. I know it's syncretic (all significant religions are, after all), but...well, the Church really didn't care for people who stepped too far out of line theologically speaking.

I assume that Christianity would have to not become the state religion of Rome ITTL. Of course, some places, like Ethiopia, Armenia etc. could still adopt Christianity as their state religion. Or, a state religion - both Armenia and Ethiopia have their own native religions, after all.

 

[Whiteshore]

Maybe Christianity could fill the role Buddhism filled in China while some sort of codification of the Greco-Roman Religion fills the role of Taoism and folk religions and Neo-Platonism fills the role of Confucianism?

 

[Metempsychosis]

Maybe Christianity could fill the role Buddhism filled in China while some sort of codification of the Greco-Roman Religion fills the role of Taoism and folk religions and Neo-Platonism fills the role of Confucianism?

Something like Manichaeism or a Great Mother Isis cult would fit better, I think.

 

[Whiteshore]

Something like Manichaeism or a Great Mother Isis cult would fit better, I think.

That's true, but yeah, my suggestions for the Taoism and Confucianism-equivalents work?

 

[Zireael]

Beautiful
And Im not just talking about the concept being good, the map is really aesthetically pleasing

Yeah, I love the map too - what projection is that?

That...just doesn't work with Christianity. I know it's syncretic (all significant religions are, after all), but...well, the Church really didn't care for people who stepped too far out of line theologically speaking.

Why are we even talking about Christianity, we're still in BC (last I checked)...

But anyway: early Christianity had a LOT of offshoots. Check out Arianism, Gnosticism and Ebionites for some (those are all pre-Nicaea; for some later offshoots, check Manicheans and Monophysites and Nestorianism)
There's also Sol Invictus (which was basically trying to graft "monotheism" onto Ancient Roman mythology)

 

[Metempsychosis]

That's true, but yeah, my suggestions for the Taoism and Confucianism-equivalents work?

Yeah. Though I'd argue that Chinese folk religion is different from whatever philosophical trends the literati were in to.

Actually, Neoplatonism makes more sense as the mystical Taoism equivalent, while Hellenistic philosophy as a whole could be backdated into a Confucian-style school of thought. Maybe marked by Stoicism.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Actually, Neoplatonism makes more sense as the mystical Taoism equivalent, while Hellenistic philosophy as a whole could be backdated into a Confucian-style school of thought. Maybe marked by Stoicism.

Might Plato's Republic be roughly equivalent to the Analects of Confucius?

 

[Aluma]

I'd argue Aristotelism, christian or pagan, fits better as Confucionism since

A) it was the "rival" philosophy to Platonism like Confucionism to Taoism but not totally incompatible with one another
B) was the ideology medieval Europe adopted IOTL
C)Was somewhat rationalist or naturalist like Confucionism and had a lot to say about statecraft
D)The relation of Stoicism to it kinda reminds me of Mohism to Confucionism

 

[Umbric Man]

I wonder, what would be the British equivalent of the Japanese Samurai?

Were not the English famed for their longbow usage? That could work nicely if the weapon gains even more prestige than it did in OTL.

 

[S. Marlowski]

Were not the English famed for their longbow usage? That could work nicely if the weapon gains even more prestige than it did in OTL.

So English Longbowmen gaining the same reputation among East Asians ITTL, like how the Samurai did with Westerners in our world, sounds like an interesting prospect.

 

[Umbric Man]

So English Longbowmen gaining the same reputation among East Asians ITTL, like how the Samurai did with Westerners in our world, sounds like an interesting prospect.

Having a Crecy or Agincourt equivalent somewhere in TTL where English archery can strut their stuff would help plenty, I imagine. Doubly so if you throw in a Spanish Armada/Kamikaze weather event to help out somewhere.

 

[spoonzandforkz]

What about the matter of religion?

China is very religiously diverse, with people adopting practices from multiple traditions without any real contradiction. Similarly, in Japan, people adopt both Shinto and Buddhist practices - including people who, by Western standards, would be classified as atheists.

That...just doesn't work with Christianity. I know it's syncretic (all significant religions are, after all), but...well, the Church really didn't care for people who stepped too far out of line theologically speaking.

I assume that Christianity would have to not become the state religion of Rome ITTL. Of course, some places, like Ethiopia, Armenia etc. could still adopt Christianity as their state religion. Or, a state religion - both Armenia and Ethiopia have their own native religions, after all.

Honestly, if the TL is indeed to continue, I'd personally prefer the stylistic choices go in the direction of favoring plausibility more than direct 1:1 analogues to OTL: wouldn't it be cooler to see a religiously diverse East Asia "take on" Europe's role, and how differently, or similarly, its external trappings of religion affect it's colonialist ambitions, for better or for worse (or perhaps both at the same time, in different places) compared to European Christendom, and its eventual consequences if we do arrive to something like the "one dominant industrial cultural-civilizational sphere accomplishes an almost complete conquest of the world"-analogue stage achieved by Europe OTL circa 1900? There's a lot you can play with those themes, after all.

Same thing, with, say, matters regarding population and other "immutable" geographic differences. (In any case, regarding population, it doesn't have to be all about comparative crop yields of wheat vs rice, etc, pinned on climate: remember, there's two thousand years of alternate history, here, after all, so it's fairly possible to "tweak" Rome's history so it arrives at a more-or-less similar population level as OTL China in the modern day - say, by giving Rome a less brutal version of the 20th century: a more mellow analogue of Mao, a less destructive "British" invasion, civil wars, etc. Maybe not to the point of having 1.4 billion people, but close enough)

 

[spoonzandforkz]

On a lighter note, I found this old AH timeline from 2010 (who'd've thunk?) which deals with almost the exact same theme as this TL: what if Rome united, and China collapsed, and the respective roles of east and west swapped, and all that fun stuff - could possibly be a source of inspiration, kickstart this timeline back to activity, perhaps? (Though I'm not sure about how thin the line is on here between plagiarism and inspiration: given the kicks I've seen happen sometimes... )

Two maps from the site (not mine, the author's of course), set near the end of the 17th century (the last ones on the timeline: it seems to be unfinished):

(Speaking of religion, the author decided to go with the choice of a continuing-pagan Rome, and a Christian/Buddhist-syncretic China: come to think, that would actually be a pretty interesting choice - like Christianity in the middle East OTL, the religion would "regather" it's strength in another region, also coincidentally the region that would eventually dominate the world. OTOH, as cool as that would be, it does makes me wonder about the ideological inclinations of the author: although not same lazy Eurocentrism evinced by the at-least-envisionable-AH of a dominant China, it is a mite Christian-centric, with part of the inherent logic here being paganism/polytheism = backwards, decaying empires, Christianity/monotheism = advanced, modern and "scientific". I guess it would be possible to read this as "progressive" in one way - hey, it's not because of some inherent racial advantage Europe has that catapulted it into modernity: but merely Christianity,. which isn't even European in the first place! If China had it, they too would have been rich and modern instead - how enlightened! Still, it is a fun idea, in spite of - to me, anyway - some slightly dubious assumptions about history )

(The world in the 17th century: apparently Japan had still conquered Korea - the author having really stuck with the whole "parallelism" thing to the end - though the Chinese states are starting to diffuse around the globe; some of the European states, outside of Rome, seem to have their own wee colonies, but not as large as the Chinese ones. The "Jurchen" empire is apparently an Ottoman-analogue, it having conquered Beijing - and with it, the ancient Chinese empire - in... 1453.)

 

[Aluma]

Someone published yet another "Caesar lives" map on Reddit and I couldnt help but remember of this due to him also ending up as a monarch in this one and being called "Julius the Great".