Disaster Averted (Titanic Lives) (Old)

Also very hard to preserve. Its the same reason so few aircraft carriers or Battleships have survived. The Olympic's were 270m's long, where on earth do you park them? You'd need either a full size drydock (unlike say Victory or the M33 which can sit in an obsolete old dock nobody needs anymore) or a substantial space in a harbour somewhere that takes up alot room and since the ship would be "dead" can easily become a hazard to navigation.
Especially if there's not a reason to preserve such a ship, not to mention that the running costs for a museum ship are quite extensive.
 
Especially if there's not a reason to preserve such a ship, not to mention that the running costs for a museum ship are quite extensive.
Which is why even a few ships that became museums turned out to be not quite saved enough, those Russian carriers rotting in China when the money ran out of the Vikrant actually being scrapped for instance.
 
Also no reason another line might not buy Olympic yet, if its like OTL then her hull and plant are in good condition, another operator may want her.
 
People didn’t see ocean liners as things worth preserving back then, especially after the Great Depression. All three Olympic-class liners would likely get scrapped by 1939 at the latest, or perhaps sunk during WW2
 
It looks like the Treaty of Stockholm is TTL’s equivalent to the Treaty of Versailles - although here it’s France, not Germany, who sees themselves as getting a raw deal - and there’s even a Nazi-equivalent organization that takes shape in response.

(Speaking of which - how do Hitler and the Nazis themselves figure into this - if, in fact, they still do? Are they still major players in Germany?)
 
It looks like the Treaty of Stockholm is TTL’s equivalent to the Treaty of Versailles - although here it’s France, not Germany, who sees themselves as getting a raw deal - and there’s even a Nazi-equivalent organization that takes shape in response.

(Speaking of which - how do Hitler and the Nazis themselves figure into this - if, in fact, they still do? Are they still major players in Germany?)
Hitler and the Nazis are a bit of an enigma, which I haven't delved into much or intended to. However, they likely become a minor political party in this version of Germany. Hitler's skills as an orator and public speaker, plus the outrage felt in Germany, allowed the NSDAP, or possibly just the DAP (German Workers' Party) to win some seats and influence, but ultimately they never quite reached the same level of power as in our world. There was no Beer Hall Putsch, nor did the Nazis reach a majority among the right-leaning parties, let alone the government itself. Many Nazis from our world either never joined, or too remained a minor player compared to our world.

The NSDAP is thus mostly regarded as a footnote in history, only known locally in Bavaria and the city of Munich, where its power base was. Hitler continued to serve as Party chairman, but after another disappointing set of elections between 1929-1936, ultimately resigned his position. What he became afterward I can't say, but possibly he tried once more for art, joined the Stahelm (Or some equivalent group in this world), left for Austria, or found work in Munich where he remained for much of his life.

Despite this, Hitler remained a major advocate for pan-Germanism and the idea of a unified German state, which came to fruition following the end of the Second World War which saw the majority German parts of Austria join Germany at last. He remained anti-Semitic, believing Germany could have won the Great War had the country not been stabbed in the back, but his ideology never evolved as it did in our world and he remained anti-Semitic, but not genocidal.

His legacy is that of a minor, far-right, German politician and artist, relatively obscure in the modern history of Germany, who is only known for his service in the War and being chairman of the NSDAP.
 
Treaty of Stockholm, 1917
All sides not being able to agree a treaty? Shocking!

OTL Versailles was only one treaty dealing with the defeated powers, here it seems they are trying to do all of it in one place, which in later years might be considered the reason for an unsatisfactory deal.

"From the end of January and leading into February," - Roosevelt being away this long might cause issues for him back home, esp given the actual treaty, but I am sure Teddy could spin it somehow.

"Russian efforts to form a Polish state under their terms" - surprised the Russians are giving up that much land, but it does make sense to have a buffer state.

"Reparations would be paid, the total amounting to about 15 billion gold marks in gold, commodities, ships, securities, or other forms." - between the Ottoman, German, and Austro-Hungarian Empires that is not that much really.

"to the point that the French and Italian delegations left during the negotiations and signed separate treaties to officially end the war." - signed with who? Why would the Central Powers sign deals with them when Stockholm is ongoing? Cannot see that happening.

"the Kaiser remained the ultimate authority within the Reich," - surviving German Monarchy will change a lot post war.

"as Alsace and Lorraine were split between France and Germany." - why a split and not referendum in each territory to decide which country they go to?

"All for the sake and selfish desires and whims of the United States and Britain.” - well that seems an interesting reading of what happened. Someone is covering ass.

"Lloyd George believed in the Treaty, and were convinced French attempts at enforcement would start another war," - touch of the Sight there! Obvious though when looking at French aims of a dismantled Germany.

"only a small portion of Italy’s war goals were achieved, including small portions of the Dalmatian coast." - war in the 20's to take Albania one wonders?

"Despite some proposals for a so-called “League of Nations” - no LoN will see quite a few effects in the 20's as they did some good stuff.

"After the end of Roosevelt’s Presidency," - by my calculations Teddy was President for 3.5 terms? 1901-1905, 1905- 1909 - 1.5 terms and 1913-1917, 1917- 1921 - 2 terms. He has to be President to be there at Stockholm, so quite a long, dominating run. Al Smith ran for it in 1924 OTL, I wonder who was the 1921-1925 President then?

“An endeavour which, whilst proving American might, has otherwise left us without friends in the Concert of Europe.” - I am sure Britain still likes you.

Seems Britain and France do not get anything in the Middle East from the map- but what is the Blue country in the Levant please?

Also from the map, what's the semi-circular border inside Germany?

Also is Poland still Russian?

Nice piece of Alt History here overall.
 
March Revolution, 1917

Well, this one will be messy.

"As the Russian Assembly began to disintegrate as many lower-class intellects and representatives left, so did General Kornilov lead Russian Army forces into the city" - this is an unclear sentence here.

"The March Revolution as it became known lasted only from the 5-11 as the Tsar refused to meet with the men representing the Revolution," - I suspect Nicholas would have met some of the more moderate ones but simply refuse their demands.

"remained within the Duma in the hopes that forces loyal to the Tsar would arrive in time." - the Tsar would unlikely be in the Duma, more likely one of the Palaces.

"Thus, with the stroke of the pen, the Tsar formally ended the 300-year-old Romanov Dynasty," - This is I have a major problem with. No way that Nicholas II's abdication would end the whole Royal Family. Someone would have taken the Throne. Given this March Revolution is a LOT less violent that the OTL one, then the Tsardom is not dissolved like that.

"and entering protective custody by the newly formed provisional government, and moved to Alexander Palace at Tsarkoye Selo." - I still don't see it.

"With the Tsar gone, the Russian Provisional Government replaced the old regime and declared itself the official governing body of the Russian Empire." - I could see this forming with an empty Throne behind them as they looked for a candidate if Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich would not take it. I just don't see a Republic with the events you have given us. Maybe the Russian version of the Steward of Gondor.

"To lead the Provisional Government, Alexander Kerensky was ultimately chosen." - not a bad choice.

Critically, with the war over the Provisional Government stands a chance of standing here- no civil war is likely if the Nobles keep their heads and their lands. Reform will be slower though. If Kerensky can sort out food distribution then the PG stands a chance imho.

Interesting.
 
Return to Service, 1917-1918
Ah, ships!

5.png

Here's a post-war Titanic for you from our friend, Mike Brady of Ocean Liner Designs.

I suspect the extra lifeboats would happen as a result of her own near-miss or post-war safety changes.

"In March 1918, the Titanic, Olympic, and Gigantic were returned to Belfast" - I doubt it would be all at once, H&W cannot do all three at the same time. I suspect Gigantic would be taken off troop duties first and given her refit mid-1917, then Titanic in late 1917, and finally Olympic in early 1918, allowing the yard to stagger the work. After all Olympic's OTL post-war refit took 11 months - August 1919 to June 1920, so I figure Gigantic would be back in service for mid-1918, Titanic in late-1918, and Olympic early-1919.

The trio's duties on the Atlantic would be covered by other White Star ships, but the company are going to want an Olympic class on duty asap.

"Without a loss of the big three, White Star Line would instead acquire Majestic to replace some of its ageing liners." - well if Oceanic went down like OTL, then SS Bismarck would be good compensation, though for fun I'd give White Star Imperator just to be different.

Where did the other German big ships go? Does Norddeutscher Lloyd get to keep Columbus and Hindenburg, or does White Star get one as Homeric?

"as the "Golden Years" of the Titanic trio," - is that 'Titanic' as in the ship or just the size since the ships are the Olympic class?

"Even after the 1929-1932 Economic Crash" - Crash not Depression, noted. Ending in 1932 is Big butterflies. Nice.

"It served till the latter" - do you mean 'They served...'?

"German SS Prince Wilhelm and SS Fatherland," - nice butterfly ships there or are they ITTL version of Bremen and Europa?

"by 1935, the decision would be made to retire Olympic finally, and set her to be laid up in Southampton in May." - Humm, if Olympic is in the same state as OTL her Hull and machinery are in great shape and she would make a good purchase for another company, or even sent to the Australian side of the White Star business. Feels unlikely she would just be scrapped.

"soon to be joined by the newly constructed, RMS Oceanic," - nice wonder if Oceanic is a 1,000ft monster as planned?

Given the world has avoided immigration controls in the US, and a Depression, I would imagine White Star are in a decent financial position here and are not likely to face the OTL fate of the line.

Nice.
 
Churning Seas (1920s-1930s)
"the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Decline continued," - there are many on this site that would argue with the idea that the Ottomans where 'in decline' and the 'sick man of Europe' is in fact just propaganda, and there was much reform and change going on inside the Empire. With a different Great War then I really can see the Ottomans surviving and reforming.

Austria-Hungary may have a go with a Triple Monarchy to include the other regions or indeed a more Federal model. I suspect they are much more in need of reform than others. I could see a slow break up rather than a revolutionary one though.

"The French Legislative elections from 1919 and 1924 witnessed the far Right League, led by the Action Francaise, take the majority of seats." - That will ring a lot of alarm bells around Europe, esp in Germany. Though a far right government in France may end up distracted by unrest in it's African colonies if they pursue any particularly racist policies.

"lost the next election for Prime Minister after" - Britain does not have elections for Prime Minster, the position is not directly elected.

"unpopularity of the Liberal government saw Labour and Conservatives assume majority seats in parliament in the following elections of 1918" - er, Labour and Conservative are two separate parties. Unless its a National coalition Government, which seems unlikely, it would be the Conservatives taking power under Bonar Law. Labour, may surpass the Liberals seat count though.

"resulting in the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1920" - maybe. With the War ending in 1916, I could see Ireland becoming a Dominion inside the Empire instead of independent due to butterflies of 2 years less of war and expenditure meaning the Lloyd George government would have dealt with it before Law in 1920. Same with voting rights and a whole bunch of stuff that got bounced along during the war years OTL.

"In Italy, the growing right and left witnessed violence" - Italy I could see undergoing a period of instability, but settle down again in the 20's. Mussolini was not a forgone conclusion. Would need more research, but I suspect another path could be found for Italy that is not a communist one either.

"a rising new talent from the Sultan's armies named Mustafa Kemal Atatürk" - perhaps Ataturk will lead his people into a new era, but with a Constitutional Monarch Sultan instead of a Republic and with a lot more of the Empire than Turkey had OTL.

"Under Ebert's time as Chancellor oversaw the post-war world " - missing a word here? Will be interesting to read how Ebert does with a Kaiser above him in Government.

"allowing her to achieve a max speed of 24 knots," - which is impressive indeed. I guess modern hull shapes and boilers etc would see speeds like that from even luxury ships like White Star's.

"The 1930s saw passenger and immigrant travel gradually slow down over the following years from 1920-1935" - in the previous chapter you said immigration went up as people left for the New World post the Great War?

"Buyers came and offered to purchase the ship, but due to age and the perception that she was simply too "old" for service," - really not sure on this. Olympic was in fine shape and profitable when she was laid up OTL, I feel there would likely be buyers in this world due to cruising, or passenger service elsewhere, perhaps in the Med? Particually if she has been modernised inside. White Star is not being forced to scrap her here like in OTL due to the wonky 'merger' with Cunard. No need to ape otl.

"White Star Line, naturally, followed suit." - Tourist Class in 1926 does seem to imply a drop off in immigrant numbers, but you did say otherwise?

"till the decision was made in 1936 to finally retire her from service as Oceanic was joined by her new sister, Hermaric, " - Is Oceanic from 1928? Hermaric is not a name I can see White Star using, as it does not seem to mean anything? I cannot find any ship ever with that name! It does sound a little 'witchcrafty' so I doubt it would be used. Perhaps Brittannic, Ionic, American, Bardic, Olympic II..?

"rival Cunard Liners Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth. " - so Queen Mary entering service in 1933 and Queen Elizabeth in 1936 if there is no Depression?

Titanic getting scrapped in 1936 does not feel right, again like Olympic I just feel there would be buyers for her - other lines, the Navy needing a training ship etc. There would be those who where watching the continent and seeing the clouds gathering would be looking to keep as much tonnage for troop transporting as possible.

Sure I know ships get scrapped, but this does seem like a 'clearing of the decks' about the same time as otl.

c_butler_05.jpg

Titanic getting scrapped, 1938.

"led the British Admiralty to seize the White Star ship " - not before a war started they would not, it would not be done like that, particularly because Britain might not get invovled in another continental war.

Did Japan not invade China before 1940? If not then invading Hong Kong in 1940 instead of concentrating on China is a dumb move as they know it will bring in the British to what is otherwise a local war.

"when she would become another victim of war" - sounds like a inglorious way to end the Olympic class.

Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but I think this is a weaker chapter compared to the others.
 
Ah, ships!

5.png

Here's a post-war Titanic for you from our friend, Mike Brady of Ocean Liner Designs.

I suspect the extra lifeboats would happen as a result of her own near-miss or post-war safety changes.

"In March 1918, the Titanic, Olympic, and Gigantic were returned to Belfast" - I doubt it would be all at once, H&W cannot do all three at the same time. I suspect Gigantic would be taken off troop duties first and given her refit mid-1917, then Titanic in late 1917, and finally Olympic in early 1918, allowing the yard to stagger the work. After all Olympic's OTL post-war refit took 11 months - August 1919 to June 1920, so I figure Gigantic would be back in service for mid-1918, Titanic in late-1918, and Olympic early-1919.

The trio's duties on the Atlantic would be covered by other White Star ships, but the company are going to want an Olympic class on duty asap.

"Without a loss of the big three, White Star Line would instead acquire Majestic to replace some of its ageing liners." - well if Oceanic went down like OTL, then SS Bismarck would be good compensation, though for fun I'd give White Star Imperator just to be different.

Where did the other German big ships go? Does Norddeutscher Lloyd get to keep Columbus and Hindenburg, or does White Star get one as Homeric?

"as the "Golden Years" of the Titanic trio," - is that 'Titanic' as in the ship or just the size since the ships are the Olympic class?

"Even after the 1929-1932 Economic Crash" - Crash not Depression, noted. Ending in 1932 is Big butterflies. Nice.

"It served till the latter" - do you mean 'They served...'?

"German SS Prince Wilhelm and SS Fatherland," - nice butterfly ships there or are they ITTL version of Bremen and Europa?

"by 1935, the decision would be made to retire Olympic finally, and set her to be laid up in Southampton in May." - Humm, if Olympic is in the same state as OTL her Hull and machinery are in great shape and she would make a good purchase for another company, or even sent to the Australian side of the White Star business. Feels unlikely she would just be scrapped.

"soon to be joined by the newly constructed, RMS Oceanic," - nice wonder if Oceanic is a 1,000ft monster as planned?

Given the world has avoided immigration controls in the US, and a Depression, I would imagine White Star are in a decent financial position here and are not likely to face the OTL fate of the line.

Nice.
I know there are some problems here and there that I will have to iron out, so thank you for highlighting these. Yeah, my grammar does suffer due to my rush to type things. I get so caught up in typing the full text I have in mind, that I often blunder and don't proofread afterward. If there is one issue I have to learn and get better from, it's that.
A lot of details are ambiguous as I've come to realize I have effectively opened Pandora's box, and now let out too much to address. I'm not sure in regards to the fate of certain ships or some of the implications I have just done, so I can't exactly answer all your questions. But I can answer some.
To start with; The three ships all returned to Belfast, yes I now realize I should've looked deeper into that course of events, and come up with a reason all three would be or changed it so only the Titanic and Olympic went in 1918. However, it was ambiguous and I figured enough time had passed from the end of the war to allow their return to passenger service. I did overlook the fact that White Star would want at least ONE of the Olympic liners in Service whilst the other two were in for refit, so that's my bad for the oversight.

As the case for the other German liners, with this alternate treaty of Versailles, or now Treaty of Stockholm, compensation for losses suffered would be limited, hinting that not many German liners would be handed over, to begin with, and limiting just what Cunard and White Star could get back in return for ships lost.

Titanic trio was not referring to Titanic herself, but to the size of the trio of ships. I should've made it more clear on my end so that's my bad.

Yes, the end of the early crash, as was hinted at previously by comments that an earlier end to the war might also reduce the impact of the Great Depression. Though some sorta crash of note would happen, but wouldn't be as remembered as it was in our world. Thanks.

I believe I meant they served, though again with regards to grammar, my rush to type often gives me problems.

SS Prince Wilhelm and SS Fatherland are meant to replace Bremen and Europa, though I do also imagine them being a newer pair of ships, taking influence from Bremen and Europa in appearance by being larger and having three funnels instead of just one or two. They were meant to compete with the White and Cunard Lines and were made fairly large.

For the fate of Olympic, approaching the end of this alternate TL, I wasn't sure where I wanted it to go and, admittingly, just decided to butterfly Olympic's fate and have it be similar to our worlds. The reasoning was that, as she got older and competition grew, the White Star Line wished to begin introducing newer liners and believed it was time to retire Olympic early. I had a few ideas, including having her survive long enough to enter service during the Great War, become a floating hotel in France (Like OTL proposal), or have her sold off to another shipping line and have her last until the 1950s or 60s. It was a rushed job on my part, but you are right in that regard. I just thought that with the OTL in mind, even IF she was in good condition, she was ultimately sent to be scrapped anyway. Course now things are different and I should've acknowledged that instead of just copying our world version of events.

RMS Oceanic is intended to be the same as the original concept from our world, with her intended to be the ultimate White Star Liner, she would take influence from the Olympic class in some regards but effectively be her own new ship.

White Star Line's ultimate fate was harder to determine, as I thought it still possible that even with the Olympic trio still around, White Star might suffer severe loss of shipping from the war and eventually be joined with Cunard anyway, just with a more equal share of the united company instead of the OTL. Though I didn't think it impossible either for them to continue, well until today.
 
Inspires me to make my own Titanic TL though I don't wanna be accused of copying so I'll wait on that
Don't ever be afraid to. If anything, I'd be flattered if you took my timeline as inspiration. But if you do, make sure to learn from my work on what I did right and wrong by reading the comments here. Criticism and opinions can go a long way in helping you create any piece of literature, so use that when you can, and don't be afraid if said criticism is negative. I'm still learning here as I type this to you.
 
"the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Decline continued," - there are many on this site that would argue with the idea that the Ottomans where 'in decline' and the 'sick man of Europe' is in fact just propaganda, and there was much reform and change going on inside the Empire. With a different Great War then I really can see the Ottomans surviving and reforming.

Austria-Hungary may have a go with a Triple Monarchy to include the other regions or indeed a more Federal model. I suspect they are much more in need of reform than others. I could see a slow break up rather than a revolutionary one though.

"The French Legislative elections from 1919 and 1924 witnessed the far Right League, led by the Action Francaise, take the majority of seats." - That will ring a lot of alarm bells around Europe, esp in Germany. Though a far right government in France may end up distracted by unrest in it's African colonies if they pursue any particularly racist policies.

"lost the next election for Prime Minister after" - Britain does not have elections for Prime Minster, the position is not directly elected.

"unpopularity of the Liberal government saw Labour and Conservatives assume majority seats in parliament in the following elections of 1918" - er, Labour and Conservative are two separate parties. Unless its a National coalition Government, which seems unlikely, it would be the Conservatives taking power under Bonar Law. Labour, may surpass the Liberals seat count though.

"resulting in the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1920" - maybe. With the War ending in 1916, I could see Ireland becoming a Dominion inside the Empire instead of independent due to butterflies of 2 years less of war and expenditure meaning the Lloyd George government would have dealt with it before Law in 1920. Same with voting rights and a whole bunch of stuff that got bounced along during the war years OTL.

"In Italy, the growing right and left witnessed violence" - Italy I could see undergoing a period of instability, but settle down again in the 20's. Mussolini was not a forgone conclusion. Would need more research, but I suspect another path could be found for Italy that is not a communist one either.

"a rising new talent from the Sultan's armies named Mustafa Kemal Atatürk" - perhaps Ataturk will lead his people into a new era, but with a Constitutional Monarch Sultan instead of a Republic and with a lot more of the Empire than Turkey had OTL.

"Under Ebert's time as Chancellor oversaw the post-war world " - missing a word here? Will be interesting to read how Ebert does with a Kaiser above him in Government.

"allowing her to achieve a max speed of 24 knots," - which is impressive indeed. I guess modern hull shapes and boilers etc would see speeds like that from even luxury ships like White Star's.

"The 1930s saw passenger and immigrant travel gradually slow down over the following years from 1920-1935" - in the previous chapter you said immigration went up as people left for the New World post the Great War?

"Buyers came and offered to purchase the ship, but due to age and the perception that she was simply too "old" for service," - really not sure on this. Olympic was in fine shape and profitable when she was laid up OTL, I feel there would likely be buyers in this world due to cruising, or passenger service elsewhere, perhaps in the Med? Particually if she has been modernised inside. White Star is not being forced to scrap her here like in OTL due to the wonky 'merger' with Cunard. No need to ape otl.

"White Star Line, naturally, followed suit." - Tourist Class in 1926 does seem to imply a drop off in immigrant numbers, but you did say otherwise?

"till the decision was made in 1936 to finally retire her from service as Oceanic was joined by her new sister, Hermaric, " - Is Oceanic from 1928? Hermaric is not a name I can see White Star using, as it does not seem to mean anything? I cannot find any ship ever with that name! It does sound a little 'witchcrafty' so I doubt it would be used. Perhaps Brittannic, Ionic, American, Bardic, Olympic II..?

"rival Cunard Liners Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth. " - so Queen Mary entering service in 1933 and Queen Elizabeth in 1936 if there is no Depression?

Titanic getting scrapped in 1936 does not feel right, again like Olympic I just feel there would be buyers for her - other lines, the Navy needing a training ship etc. There would be those who where watching the continent and seeing the clouds gathering would be looking to keep as much tonnage for troop transporting as possible.

Sure I know ships get scrapped, but this does seem like a 'clearing of the decks' about the same time as otl.

c_butler_05.jpg

Titanic getting scrapped, 1938.

"led the British Admiralty to seize the White Star ship " - not before a war started they would not, it would not be done like that, particularly because Britain might not get invovled in another continental war.

Did Japan not invade China before 1940? If not then invading Hong Kong in 1940 instead of concentrating on China is a dumb move as they know it will bring in the British to what is otherwise a local war.

"when she would become another victim of war" - sounds like a inglorious way to end the Olympic class.

Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but I think this is a weaker chapter compared to the others.
I'm not upset and don't see it as harsh. I was rushing to finish this TL and give it a conclusion, rather than leave it incomplete for longer periods and force readers such as yourself to wait. I'm currently going through another period with a lack of inspiration or desire to write, or rather type, anything thus I choose to speed along instead of taking more care. And it shows. Still, I do appreciate your criticism all the same as it at least forces me to confront what I know and see things differently. I admit, my knowledge and time in history has grown old and I haven't been as interested as before.
Still, thank you all the same. Now I will might go back and make some changes, and look into a new TL I could do also.
 
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