Chinese State in Australia

I was wondering, from people who know more about China and Australia than I do (which isn't saying much), how a Chinese colonization of Australia would look.

I am aware that the Chinese aren't into colonization. But for the purposes of this thread, please assume that Chinese refugees from southern China have landed in Australia and with no place else to go, are forced to settle down. In the beginning they are around modern Darwin, but provided they maintain their original fleet, are capable of relocating to other places in Australia (politcal factors are preventing them from going elsewhere).

What kind of crops and animals from China would do the best in Australia? And what would be the best location for the Chinese settlers?

What native Australian flora and fauna would be the most amenable to cultivation and domestication? Also are there any from Indochina, Indonesia, or New Guinea that might be useful as well?

Could the Chinese resume tea, silk, and/or ceramic production once they've established an agricultural base? What Australian products would be useful in a pre-industrial trade network? And where would be the best supplies of naval stores to maintain the Chinese fleet?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
I was wondering, from people who know more about China and Australia than I do (which isn't saying much), how a Chinese colonization of Australia would look.

I am aware that the Chinese aren't into colonization. But for the purposes of this thread, please assume that Chinese refugees from southern China have landed in Australia and with no place else to go, are forced to settle down. In the beginning they are around modern Darwin, but provided they maintain their original fleet, are capable of relocating to other places in Australia (politcal factors are preventing them from going elsewhere).

What kind of crops and animals from China would do the best in Australia? And what would be the best location for the Chinese settlers?

What native Australian flora and fauna would be the most amenable to cultivation and domestication? Also are there any from Indochina, Indonesia, or New Guinea that might be useful as well?

Could the Chinese resume tea, silk, and/or ceramic production once they've established an agricultural base? What Australian products would be useful in a pre-industrial trade network? And where would be the best supplies of naval stores to maintain the Chinese fleet?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
The main reason why the Asians ignored Australia is because Northern Australia was not attractive to them and not good enough for Agriculture.
 
I've toyed with the idea of (and here's another cliche) the Ming Dynasty continuing its naval expeditions and discovering the fertile soils of Queensland. A private and clandestine migration occurs from Fujian and Zhejiang to settle in the similar climate of Queensland, where they grow rice and subtropical crops. When the Ming falls to the Qing, famine conditions in southern China prompt a steady private migration towards Taiwan and into greater areas of OTL Queensland. The statelets along the Queensland coast claim either to be Ming loyalists or nominal Qing tributary states, causing a series of wars using newly imported European firearms. The result is a southward expansion into OTL New South Wales.

By the mid-18th century, the colonies in NSW attract tens of thousands of peasants from Shandong. By the late 18th century, semi-serious efforts to form a confederation out of eastern Australian colonies based on the romanticised ideologies of the Spring and Autumn Period are made. The Qing Dynasty refuses to recognize the Australian settlements as anything other than vassals formed by runaways, but by then Australia has clearly become a Chinese counterpart to the United States.

Chinese settlement in the deep interior is sparser as the extreme climate is unsuitable for intensive agriculture. In OTL, the only native Australian species used by white settlers has been the Macadamia Nut and I suspect the same will be true of Chinese settlers. The Australian Aborigines in the coastal lowlands will gradually assimilate, though those in the outback and in the mountains will be mostly left alone. Once the Chinese offshoot colony in OTL Victoria discover gold, all bets are off.
 
I think the Southern Wu might resemble the relocation of the Ming royal court to Burma. I think emigration won’t just be a one time thing, and that it would be more a continuous emigration, even if there is official disapproval on emigration. The dynasty in many ways would rival the Timurid Empire for legitimacy.

Also I think that being cut off from mainland China will force the Southern Wu to seek maritime trade to survive and become very thalassocratic. This will mean that they will be more business minded and less of a closed off society. I don't think there being less closed off will make it possible to have integration between the native Australians and the Chinese immigrants though.

I could totally see Cotton, Nelumbo nucifera, and Rice being successful Chinese crops in Australia. These of course will have varying success in Australia's tropical, subtropical, and temperate climate zones. As the Chinese expand into the arid climate zones I'm fairly confident that they will come across the Quandong (also known as the Acuminatum). I can easily see the Chinese domesticating, or at least making use of, the Quandong. They might domesticate Danthonia Linkii to create suitable pasture environments for domesticated animals. The Chinese will certainly domesticate the Macadamia Nut, just as Europeans did. I can't see any of Australia's animals being domesticated though.

As for pottery and tea, I think that both of these will become important once the situation in the Southern Wu stabilizes. I hope this helps.
 
I was wondering, from people who know more about China and Australia than I do (which isn't saying much), how a Chinese colonization of Australia would look.

I am aware that the Chinese aren't into colonization. But for the purposes of this thread, please assume that Chinese refugees from southern China have landed in Australia and with no place else to go, are forced to settle down. In the beginning they are around modern Darwin, but provided they maintain their original fleet, are capable of relocating to other places in Australia (politcal factors are preventing them from going elsewhere).

What kind of crops and animals from China would do the best in Australia? And what would be the best location for the Chinese settlers?

What native Australian flora and fauna would be the most amenable to cultivation and domestication? Also are there any from Indochina, Indonesia, or New Guinea that might be useful as well?

Could the Chinese resume tea, silk, and/or ceramic production once they've established an agricultural base? What Australian products would be useful in a pre-industrial trade network? And where would be the best supplies of naval stores to maintain the Chinese fleet?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

What time are you thinking about? Because an Australia settled by refugees from Southern Song will look a lot different from an Australia settled by refugees from the Southern Ming, or even somehow Qing refugees.
 
What time are you thinking about? Because an Australia settled by refugees from Southern Song will look a lot different from an Australia settled by refugees from the Southern Ming, or even somehow Qing refugees.

The time period I'm thinking of is mid 1400s, although this is from a TL already two hundred years past the POD, so the Ming never arose. The Chinese refugees in question, the Wu, are modeled after the early Song, but which at their height had the naval capabilities equivalent to those of OTL Zheng He's expeditions. Hope that makes sense/clarifies things.
 
Well, I'll try to help a little bit, though I don't know much about Australia.

First, I sure hope that the Southern Wu, if you're taking the one from the Age of Miracles timeline, is more successful than the relocation of the Ming court to Burma, since that was an incredible failure. On the other hand, I highly doubt that a Timurid China would put the energy into a blue-water navy that Emperor Yongle of Ming did, so I guess it could presumably be saved by that.

Second, I highly doubt that the Southern Wu would command great legitimacy among the Chinese populace. After all, after the Southern Ming and Southern Song were destroyed in history, the Qing and Yuan were considered legitimate by most of the populace.

I would imagine that the Southern Wu would grow both wheat and rice, and it seems that Australia produces only negligible amounts of tea nowadays, so I would think things wouldn't change too much in this world. I would also imagine that the Southern Wu would trade with Chinese merchants throughout Southeast Asia, who would presumably be less interested in legitimacy and more interested in trade.
 

Titus_Pullo

Banned
The main reason why the Asians ignored Australia is because Northern Australia was not attractive to them and not good enough for Agriculture.


Australia is essentially a wasteland of snakes and lizards, the Chinese would have to find something trully enticing there to settle.
 

scholar

Banned
What time are you thinking about? Because an Australia settled by refugees from Southern Song will look a lot different from an Australia settled by refugees from the Southern Ming, or even somehow Qing refugees.
Which also begs the question: Why far away Australia? Southeast Asia was far richer and far more accepting of Chinese refugees and merchants.
 
Which also begs the question: Why far away Australia? Southeast Asia was far richer and far more accepting of Chinese refugees and merchants.

Probably because there were already lots of people there.

I imagine it's harder to set up a court in exile if the Emperor of All-Under-Heaven is stuck around a bunch of barbarians who aren't happy to see him, especially if it affects trade with the Chinese mainland.
 
Which also begs the question: Why far away Australia? Southeast Asia was far richer and far more accepting of Chinese refugees and merchants.

In OTL, the King of Burma accepted the presence of Southern Ming loyalists until the Qing made threats. The last pretender to the Ming throne Yongli was personally strangled in Burma by a crossbow by the Ming general who defected to the Qing, Wu Sangui. It's hard to imagine Champa, Khmer, Ayutthaya, or Malacca acting any differently. A faraway and sparse Australia is much safer.
 

scholar

Banned
Probably because there were already lots of people there.

I imagine it's harder to set up a court in exile if the Emperor of All-Under-Heaven is stuck around a bunch of barbarians who aren't happy to see him, especially if it affects trade with the Chinese mainland.
You still need to *get* them there. Given the fundamental of Chinese character and ethics willfully moving to the lands of the barbarians, without significant preexisting Chinese presence, is unthinkable for the Chinese themselves. This is why colonization was almost always limited by land movement and it was merely cultural, not ethnic, domination of the east. Its not impossible to get a presence, its only unlikely without at least several emperors intent on burning money with an at least semi-stable tax revenue and realm with the court not complaining. This is something that would be slow, for over a century, before it can pick up. When it picks up it will still be a gradual pace and most likely rejected by most chinese. Indonesia isn't just a physical barrier, it is a cultural representation of the meeting point not of civilization and barbarians, but the barely civilized far southern Yue tributary states and barbarian lands in which there is nothing of worth. The idea that the chinese would intentionally move to a worthless land, or go through a chaotic and completely worthless land to get to a place that barely qualifies as "outer mongolia" in terms of desireability is far fetched.

Not impossible, but it requires brain washing.
 
I am aware that the Chinese aren't into colonization.

In the distant past:
Vietnam, Korea, Japan.

In the more recent past:
Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and Vietnam again (as a different Chinese ethnicity), Xinjiang, Manchuria.

In the immediate past:
Tibet, Xinjiang.

I'm not sure you're looking at your object of inquiry with unbiased eyes. Ethno-cultural movement, trade entrepot colonisation, "internal" imperialism, and modern internal emigration all seem to be colonisation to me.

yours,
Sam R.
 
You still need to *get* them there. Given the fundamental of Chinese character and ethics willfully moving to the lands of the barbarians, without significant preexisting Chinese presence, is unthinkable for the Chinese themselves. This is why colonization was almost always limited by land movement and it was merely cultural, not ethnic, domination of the east. Its not impossible to get a presence, its only unlikely without at least several emperors intent on burning money with an at least semi-stable tax revenue and realm with the court not complaining. This is something that would be slow, for over a century, before it can pick up. When it picks up it will still be a gradual pace and most likely rejected by most chinese. Indonesia isn't just a physical barrier, it is a cultural representation of the meeting point not of civilization and barbarians, but the barely civilized far southern Yue tributary states and barbarian lands in which there is nothing of worth. The idea that the chinese would intentionally move to a worthless land, or go through a chaotic and completely worthless land to get to a place that barely qualifies as "outer mongolia" in terms of desireability is far fetched.

Not impossible, but it requires brain washing.

Yes, in reality, the opening post's idea on a Chinese Australia would fail. Even if a Chinese Emperor took a huge fleet and sailed overseas, if he landed on a place like Darwin, Australia, the expedition would probably fail, and there would be no Chinese Australian state, at most a community of Chinese intermarried with the Aboriginal.

But the goal is to be creative, which is a decent reason for giving the idea some leeway. After all, it isn't the goal of this forum to produce worlds that are functionally clones of real life.
 
In the distant past:
Vietnam, Korea, Japan.

In the more recent past:
Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and Vietnam again (as a different Chinese ethnicity), Xinjiang, Manchuria.

In the immediate past:
Tibet, Xinjiang.

I'm not sure you're looking at your object of inquiry with unbiased eyes. Ethno-cultural movement, trade entrepot colonisation, "internal" imperialism, and modern internal emigration all seem to be colonisation to me.

yours,
Sam R.

First, there's a difference between settlement and emigration and outright colonization, and second, those are circumstances very different from Basileus444's timeline. There were never courts in exile established in Vietnam or Korea, for example.
 
First, there's a difference between settlement and emigration and outright colonization, and second, those are circumstances very different from Basileus444's timeline. There were never courts in exile established in Vietnam or Korea, for example.

Would you care to elucidate your typology of varying population movements, because your concepts don't seem distinct.
 

scholar

Banned
In the distant past:
Vietnam, Korea, Japan.

In the more recent past:
Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and Vietnam again (as a different Chinese ethnicity), Xinjiang, Manchuria.
You need to clarify those for me, because it appears to me that you may be misinformed, particularly about Japan. Japan was culturally dominated by China, copying and developing chinese ideals into their own, with some Korean influence, and merging it with their own. Japan, however, was never colonized by the Chinese.

The same is true for Singapore and Malaysia, though the idea that Indonesia was colonized by China as well as the Philipines, are not founded within reality. The closest thing I can think of is when the Yuan attempted to invade Majapahit and failed. This, however, was an invasion. It was not any sort of colonialism. The Yuan no more colonized Indonesia or the Philippines than the Germans colonized France at the end of WW1.

Manchuria was not intentionally colonized, but I won't debate that it wasn't colonized by early dynasties. The Qing Dynasty was founded on Jianzhou Jurchens, which were largely culturally chinese and the descendents of both chinese and proto-jurchens from the Jin. The Qing even called itself the Jin until it became clear that they were taking all of china.

Xinjiang, however, was definitely state supported. Alongside Taiwan.
 
Would you care to elucidate your typology of varying population movements, because your concepts don't seem distinct.

I was thinking of the political definition of a colony, something like "a subject territory occupied by a settlement from the ruling state", though I concede that there are technically other types of colonies.
 
me said:
Japan. Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore
You need to clarify those for me, because it appears to me that you may be misinformed, particularly about Japan. Japan was culturally dominated by China, copying and developing chinese ideals into their own, with some Korean influence, and merging it with their own. Japan, however, was never colonized by the Chinese.

Given that the ethno-cultural origins of the Yamato cult people are effectively lost in time, by the time of emergence of a separate state, displaying extreme xenophobia towards pre-Yamato cult cultures, and displaying high degrees of cultural borrowing from Chinese cultures, I think it is a reasonable supposition regarding the origins of early Japanese states as rooted in population movements from China.

The classic Greek colonies in Near Asia and the Black Sea were often politically independent from an early age, and imposing the concept of the "modern state" on the functions of government this far in the past seems anachronistic. I'm accepting as colonisation any population movement to an area outside of traditional ethno-culturally occupied areas with the intent of forming a permanent external community. So I'm including cultural or population transfers resulting in the formation of new states (Vietnam, Korea, Japan); and permanent culturally distinct trading communities in entrepots (Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore).

"States" aren't all that significant—the story of the pre-US settler societies hinges around state neglect.

yours,
Sam R.
 

scholar

Banned
Given that the ethno-cultural origins of the Yamato cult people are effectively lost in time, by the time of emergence of a separate state, displaying extreme xenophobia towards pre-Yamato cult cultures, and displaying high degrees of cultural borrowing from Chinese cultures, I think it is a reasonable supposition regarding the origins of early Japanese states as rooted in population movements from China.
It is not necessary to assume such a thing, you would be surprised how many Koreans would make the same claim. It is most certainly that they are an asiatic people that most likely travelled to Japan during one of the ice ages. However Peoleolithic and Neolithic "colonization" of an empty island chain, or nearly empty island chain, is not something I would even consider to blame on China.

In recorded history, and indeed as far back as the Chinese historical records go, Japan has either never been on a map, even worthy of considering that the Chinese even visited the place, or it was a highly primitive state with absolutely no resemblance to Chinese culture. Originally the 'Wa' of Japan were a matriarchal society, or so theorized, which is a very stark parallel to the Chinese. Similarly the cultures between the two were very different, or at least what is known about them. The argument could be made that since there is almost nothing known about the pre-Yamato Japan there is no reason to assume that the Chinese didn't hope on boats, without any historical mention of this occurring when the chinese were very good about their notes, and plopped in Japan taking over a society that is known to have been a composite of many different tribes and cultures, but its not one that would hold much water and does not pass the records test.

If such a migration did occur it was more likely to come from the Yue kingdoms, to which the Shang and the Zhou are made mentioning to have invaded, especially during the warring states period and then the Qin or the Korean kingdoms. About halfway through the Han the Japanese culture was already known, it bore more similarities to the Wu cultures than it did to the chinese, though in time the former would become a subdivision of the later.

Instead the time when Japan was most influenced by China came after the Han, after the supposed conquest or migration to Japan, under the Sui and Tang. Japan was heavily influenced by China throughout this timeframe, but it would reach its height in the Tang. New buddhist religions and ideals poured into the country, architecture was profoundly influenced, society was being built on Confucian and Chinese values, the government copied and borrowed from them as well. Again it wasn't a pure Chinese influence, Koreans also had influence and a great amount of credit goes to the Japanese themselves that took what was introduced to them and created their own. It was not a colonization by man or population since the foundation of the state that would be Japan, rather it was nothing less than the total domination of the development of the culture within Japan in its early years. Japan would later develop a sense of equality to China, something not reciprocated, and later developed a sense of superiority.

The classic Greek colonies in Near Asia and the Black Sea were often politically independent from an early age, and imposing the concept of the "modern state" on the functions of government this far in the past seems anachronistic. I'm accepting as colonisation any population movement to an area outside of traditional ethno-culturally occupied areas with the intent of forming a permanent external community. So I'm including cultural or population transfers resulting in the formation of new states (Vietnam, Korea, Japan); and permanent culturally distinct trading communities in entrepots (Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore).
This is a major problem. You're imposing a viewpoint of what happened in the Mediterranean to the far east, a viewpoint which has no evidence and support. In fact, the Chinese were landlocked or barely had access to the Sea until the later Shang and the Zhou, the Zhou was more northern based until it was driven south. It actually had to conquer the Qi, or Shandong Peninsula. It wouldn't be until the spring and autumn period that the sea to the east formed a real economic power, as the real economy lied with the rivers and the fields. This is not true with the Greeks. The greeks from their first record were no more than a couple miles from the sea. The sea was the only way for them to conduct trade, very nearly the only way to communicate as the rocky and hilly peninsulas were not easily traveled. The sea was the only way. Trade goods meant that the ocean wasn't just the trade and lifeblood of Greece, trading centers such as Athens made it so that the entirety of the Mediterranean came to Greece and was a trading hub center of the world. Further Greeks were democratic (partially), which further added to the possibility of Poleis. Almost every factor which made the Poleis possible in the west was almost nonexistent in China until we have semi-accurate record keeping.

Korea was founded about the time of the Zhou, (though they claim otherwise, often with shameful rapid nationalism and rhetoric). There is strong evidence that there was cultural relationships between the two states, particularly what would later develop into the State of Yan, however the state is known to have developed independently. China, the Shang and Zhou, while most definitely the precoursers to the Chinese state, were not something of solidarity alone in the wilderness of the east asia from which all states were proliferated from. Other states are known to have coexisted with the Shang and the Zhou, and wars between them are documented to have occurred. Many of the states that would arise in the Spring and Autumn/Warring States would be the remnants or built off of the remnants of these states. Particularly amongst the Chu. Though most certainly taken over by Zhou officials and relatives, the Yangze culture in which they were based had powerful cultural sway over the state. As such, very early on, the Chu broke away from the Zhou and claimed equality with the Zhou.

Vietnam has long been believed to have been founded by refugees from northern China after the spread of ethnic/cultural Han Chinese to the south. While Vietnam was conquered a number of times in early Chinese history, its distance meant that little more than a cultural importation could occur. The southern chinese peoples fleeing to the south, while not ethnically Han, were heavily influenced by Han ideals. Once they got there this influence spread to the locals, and was supported by the Han up until the Song. After the fall of the Song, Vietnam would always be a nominal vassal to the Han. Once or twice they tried to severe the cultural relationship tying them to China and it ended in civil war and ultimate abandonment, rejoining the Han. At least until the French came.

With the ones that I looked at with a criticizing gaze that I have not covered, this is because trade was never direct until the Ming and Qing. Even then intermediaries were still favored because Chinese merchants didn't want to travel the distance as it was expensive and very dangerous and the direct contact was limited. There was, however, a large amount of "second hand sinicization". Particularly during the Ming where the Chinese had temporary military presences inside of southeast Asia, particularly to defend Malacca against a Jahore based state because Malacca joined the tributary system. The Sultans of Brunei were also avid supporters of China, noting several times where they visited the country. So there was definite cultural contact and diffusion, but not in a way that can rival Japan and Korea. Korea actually started to view themselves as lesser Chinese, taking great honor in their inferiority to China, but being above everyone else on the planet or "Tianxia".

"States" aren't all that significant—the story of the pre-US settler societies hinges around state neglect.
Not in China, for rather obvious reasons. The Nomadic steppe peoples killed anyone going there that didn't have connections, extreme amounts of wealth, or an army at their back. None of those three occurred without state either having a direct or indirect involvement. In the south, particularly with the Han, it was initially free movement fleeing from the wartorn north for the peaceful south. Sun Quan and other warlords rounded up the peoples and forced them into cities, declaring wars against anyone who didn't conform. There they were taxed and drafted into the military. This seems barbaric, but within just a few generations and a lot of immigrants the South became a dominant center for chinese culture and people. The colonization of the south was built on the backs of the military. It wasn't all peaceful before the military because the Yue peoples killed off a lot of the settlers as well if they went too far south, requiring military presences to ward them off. The Man peoples of the southwest, the Qiang of the northwest, and other tribes played similar roles. China wasn't in a position to expand freely into unsettled lands without the slightest bit of aid, on all sides China was besieged by powerful and often hostile enemies. While semi-nomadic tribes in the north and sedentary civilizations in the south don't seem like much trouble for the Chinese state, they nearly brought China to its knees several times from the north. The Man peoples also became independent twice in history as a powerful unified state. The Yue didn't get their act together until Vietnam, though Yue and Minyue did provide significant resistance.
 
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