Beyond the town of Gettysburg
- Thread starter Lothar
- Start date
I read once that Grant after Vicksburg wanted to keep his army intact, go to Mobile, Alabama and then up the Alabama River to Montgomery. The Alabama River is navigable from Mobile to Montgomery. This would get Alabama out of the war and threaten Atlanta from a different direction. I have always wondered if this would have shortened the war.
If he starts soon after Vicksburg, that would have kept any of Johnston’s command from reinforcing Bragg.
Probably would result in Forrest being sent to harass Grant too.
Grant or at least Sherman with most of Grant's army going for Mobile seems interesting to me. Johnson's former Army of Relief would be in his way with around 31,000 men, maybe ITTL reinforced by Gardner's 7,000, mirroring the opening stages of the Atlanta Campaign.
9 days after the POD I do imagine any impact on Mexico yet. Do you have a specific idea?
You could always do the classic have Maximillian still in power. Or maybe you can have someone besides Benito Juárez become leader of Mexico post-revolution. Or kill off Porfirio Díaz in battle and prevent his rise to power. With the Franco invasion of Mexico, the P.O.D.s are almost endless. While on the topic of how this TL's P.O.D. has affected OTL people and events, how is George H. Thomas faring?
If the Army of Relief is still going to be operating in front of Grant's army, Rosecrans is going to have a pretty uneventful march through Chickamauga.
Deleted member 9338
Longstreet out west and Breckinridge in charge of the 1st Corp sounds like a great use of the resources at hand.
I wonder what could happen to Patrick Cleburne if he does not shoot his mouth off about freeing slaves who fight for the CSA.?
en.wikipedia.org
Patrick Cleburne - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Last edited:
I believe it makes sense to restrict the TL to the civil war theaters as long as outside events do not have an impact on the war. Or else this will go nowhere and take a monstrous scope. Thomas commands the XIV Corps in Rosecrans army and due to the changed strength ratio of TTL Chickamauga or its equivalent, it is not yet clear whether he will have his shining appearance or not.
I agree, but this might already be decided due to Longstreet not taking to the stage with his corps.
Even if he remains silent on the issue, I do not believe he is going to get his lieutenant general commission, at least not until early 1865 (when he survives that long and performs comparatively) . He is still a foreigner and alien to the southern lifestyle.I wonder what could happen to Patrick Cleburne if he does not shoot his mouth off about freeing slaves who fight for the CSA.?
Patrick Cleburne - Wikipedia
34 - The Jackson Expedition
Chapter 34 - The Jackson Expedition
During the siege of Vicksburg, General Joseph E. Johnston had assembled a relief army in Jackson, the capital of Mississippi, to threaten the siege ring from the rear. By early July 1863 Johnston had gathered 28,400 men in four infantry divisions under John Breckinridge, William Loring, Samuel French and William Walker and a cavalry division under William Jackson. As Johnston carefully advanced against the rear of Grant's army, the latter ordered William T. Sherman to deal with the threat. On July 5, the day after the surrender of Vicksburg was made official, Sherman was free to move against Johnston. Johnston hastily withdrew his force across the Big Black River and Champion's Hill battlefields with Sherman in pursuit. Sherman had with him the IX Corps, XV. Corps, XIII. Corps and a detachment of the XVI. Corps, around 40,000 men.
On July 10, the Union Army had taken up position around Jackson. The events of 12 July were decisive for the expedition. Union General Jacob Lauman ordered a brigade under Colonel Isaac Pugh to attack the Confederate fortifications to the southwest, which were defended by Breckinridge's Division. The rebel brigades of Benjamin Helm and Daniel Weisiger Adams easily repelled the unsupported advance and more than half of Pugh's brigade subsequently covered the ground between the front lines. Encouraged by this success, Johnston decided to take the initiative before the ring around the city could close. Walker's 7,000-strong division and Jackson's 4,500 horsemen left the northern positions of the city, shielded by thick vegetation, and advanced against the flank of Smith's Division of Parke's Corps, which formed the far left of Sherman's line. Smith, who had been fixed in the front by parts of Loring, was almost completely worn down as Ector's, Gist's, Gregg's and Wilson's Brigades went forward westward like a steamroller. Only at the level of the Mississippi Central Railroad could a line hastily erected by Blair's Division intercept Walker's men and bring them to a halt. Meanwhile, Jackson had advanced far north and had overrun Parke's headquarters. The surprised Corps Commander himself was able to break away at the last second with parts of his personal escort.
Compared to Johnston's 1,500 losses, Sherman's forces lost 4,500 men that day. With this reduced strength it was logistically impossible to completely surround the state capital. The Union forces retreated grumbling to Edwards about halfway back to Vicksburg, where Sherman was waiting for further reinforcements until the complete takeover of the Vicksburg administration. For Johnston, Jackson's defense was a public relations success that boosted the morale of Mississippi citizens and reduced desertion to almost zero. Reclaiming Mississippi for the Union would require far more effort than the comparatively easy siege of Vicksburg would have suggested.
Good update but one huge caveat: did you mean to say that the siege of Vicksburg was an easy endeavor? If so, please change that. Vicksburg was at once Grant’s greatest success in the West and his greatest task. He underwent I think 3 or 4 different plans of taking the city, including building canals at least twice! It was a very difficult assignment trying to take it. Just check the OTL casualties for when the Union tried to take it via assault. 3,000 to 500, and THAT was a well planned attack at that.
Ok, the comparison seems misleading, I will correct it. It was meant that after actually starting the siege Grant simply had to wait Pemberton out (that was my imagination) and that Johnston would not just await his fate.
Thank you for being open minded! But yeah no, Vicksburg was a hellacious campaign. Grant managed to win it like he did at Petersburg: utilizing his strength in numbers and logistics and outmaneuver he the enemy until they were forced to surrender.
He did approve of some attempts to take it by force in order to advance things along but once he realized how bloody those assaults were he opted wait them out even if took until July, which inevitably of course, it did.
He did take out American citizenship in 1860 and had two brothers and a sister in America with him.
Like many other Irish in America at the time, he is a recent arrival.(1849)
Patrick Cleburne - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Last edited:
The only issue with Cleburne being a crops commander is that Davis tended to prefer West Pointers for senior commands. Two of them were John Brown Gordon and Wade Hampton and they weren't in corps command until 1864. The other was Forest and his command was only cobbled together in the fall of 1863.
This TL is well written, but so far every close call has gone for the CSA - about 10 times I think, though I haven't counted. This is turning into a wank.
I would disagree with this assessment. We have essentially a stalemate in the east with high casualties on both sides and Vicksburg has fallen. As I hinted, TTL-Chickamauga will see the Confederate army being defeated and driven back into Georgia. Being self-critical I may grant you that the failed Siege of Port Hudson was far fetched and maybe a bit construed. But I believe nobody would disagree that Nathaniel Banks was a bad general that horribly failed especially in Louisiana (1864 along the Red River) and that his behaviour ITTL is in character. Concerning Johnston, he essentially did at Jackson what he did at Bentonville OTL, but with more favorable positions, a better strength ratio and better morale: Block the main force and strike for an exposed flank that whas in the air at OTL Jackson as well. If OTL was alternate history, Grant's taking of Forts Henry and Donelson as well as the Vicksburg campaign would be called a wank to be sure. Nevertheless, thank you for your input, no offense taken.
The thing is Johnson seemed to have been half-hearted in his command in Mississippi as he considered Vicksburg and the campaign lost when he first arrived in Jackson in may. Two he probably would have evacuated Jackson as he was otl when Sherman attacked as Jackson was no longer important for the confederacy so at best it would be a tactical victory for Johnson. At Bentonville Johnson was fighting more to restore his and the army's reputation then from any serious change of success. Johnson was more of an defenise General I don't see him lunching an attack under those these circumstances.
Why would Banks raise the siege? His attack may have failed, but that's no reason to retreat. All he has to do is wait.