Battle of the Dogger Bank redux

Is there an old thread for this already?

There was a moment before the OTL Battle of the Dogger Bank in WWI when the German fleet commander had his ships set up to draw in and then trap the British battlecruiser and fast battleship units. If the Germans had stuck to their plan it would on paper have worked perfectly, sandwiching the fast elements of the British battle fleet between two dozen German battleships.

Let's say the German Admiral doesn't lose his nerve and this fight occurs as he had hoped.
Outnumbered 2:1 and out-armored ship for ship as well, the British squadrons get destroyed.
The Grand Fleet arrives belatedly.
Does an inconclusive Jutland style battle ensue?

Do the Germans retreat as they've taken some losses in the earlier part of the battle and they're now outnumbered?

What happens after the battle?
How does losing most of their fastest big-gun ships effect Britain's ability to contain the High Seas Fleet?

If you're Germany, what do you do next?
 
Beatty may have been an idiot but he wasn't brain dead, if he saw the HSF he'd turn and run rather than going FOR KING AND COUNTRY!!! before sailing against a massively overwhelming force. If he had to leave a cripple behind he probably would to preserve his command. And RN ships are faster than their German equivalents. To get this working it would require the RN to be dumb and blind.
 
Is there an old thread for this already?

There was a moment before the OTL Battle of the Dogger Bank in WWI when the German fleet commander had his ships set up to draw in and then trap the British battlecruiser and fast battleship units. If the Germans had stuck to their plan it would on paper have worked perfectly, sandwiching the fast elements of the British battle fleet between two dozen German battleships.

Let's say the German Admiral doesn't lose his nerve and this fight occurs as he had hoped.
Outnumbered 2:1 and out-armored ship for ship as well, the British squadrons get destroyed.
The Grand Fleet arrives belatedly.
Does an inconclusive Jutland style battle ensue?

Do the Germans retreat as they've taken some losses in the earlier part of the battle and they're now outnumbered?

What happens after the battle?
How does losing most of their fastest big-gun ships effect Britain's ability to contain the High Seas Fleet?

If you're Germany, what do you do next?

Had the planets aligned and this 'perfect scenario' unfolded for the HSF why do the BCS's hang around to be destroyed? They are significantly faster than the HSF and I cannot see a scenario where at most more than 1 or 2 of the BC's are lost or significantly damaged before they get out of harms way.

Also they had 7 cls and 35 DDs with them - thats a lot of smoke screen and potential torpedo threats for the HSF units to deal with.

In extremis had the 5 BCs of the 1st an 2nd BCS been sunk then any subsequent analogous Battle of Jutland played out then the British scouting force would be built around the the 5th Battle Ship Squadron (the Queen Elizabeth class Fast BBs) rather than simply being supported by them.

And who knows maybe greater use of the experimental Aircraft carriers?

Lessons vs OTL learned would be fewer for the Germans (ie Seydlitz not almost lost to a ammunition fire driving changes to ammo handling) and certainly different for the British (ie no lack of ROF myth impacting ammo handling safety) - I can certainly imagine that the British would focus on communication and intelligence handling in the face of such a defeat.

For the Germans flush with success they might stick their necks out more in subsequent Ops - ignoring the fact that they remain out gunned and outnumbered.
 
The Royal Navy would scream "Bloody Hell!" The run for home fast losing several screening destroyers and probly a battle cruiser or two.And the Germans would turn and get while the getting was good.Emboldened the Germans have the potential to do something very stupid in the next year.
 
Beatty may have been an idiot but he wasn't brain dead, if he saw the HSF he'd turn and run rather than going FOR KING AND COUNTRY!!! before sailing against a massively overwhelming force. If he had to leave a cripple behind he probably would to preserve his command. And RN ships are faster than their German equivalents. To get this working it would require the RN to be dumb and blind.

The POD concept is that had the Germans continued on in the formation and with the plan they were following in OTL, the British fast elements would have run into the jaws of an intentionally laid trap...that's not fantasy, that's where the ships were and what they were doing on both sides that day. Beatty would have found himself with the main HSF BB squadrons bracketing them on north and south, and the reserve squadron and German BCs on the east. The only escape would have been to do a 180 and run for the British coast, or to try to break through the encircling net of German squadrons.

Cryhavoc101's statement about the 7 CL & 35 DD is intriguing. Could they have screened Beatty long enough for a get-away?
How sure can we be that they would make their escape, percentage-wise?

I agree the only real use of a German victory here would be if they were to press aggressively in the months that followed. That would likely have triggered a Jutland-style fight farther from Kiel (?).
 

NHBL

Kicked
You aren't thinking of Dogger Bank, but an earlier incident when Admiral Ingenhol was at sea with the entire High Seas Fleet, and perhaps could have caught a portion of Grand fleet. That was early in the war; at Dogger bank, the High Seas Fleet wasn't nearby.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Is there an old thread for this already?

There was a moment before the OTL Battle of the Dogger Bank in WWI when the German fleet commander had his ships set up to draw in and then trap the British battlecruiser and fast battleship units. If the Germans had stuck to their plan it would on paper have worked perfectly, sandwiching the fast elements of the British battle fleet between two dozen German battleships.

Let's say the German Admiral doesn't lose his nerve and this fight occurs as he had hoped.
Outnumbered 2:1 and out-armored ship for ship as well, the British squadrons get destroyed.
The Grand Fleet arrives belatedly.
Does an inconclusive Jutland style battle ensue?

I dearly love sinking British ships. ;) Ok, the plan works well. How many British ships do you think will be sunk? Even in a win, the Germans likely lose a few ships. And many ships that are "fine" will still need repairs or even dry dock work. The Germans will win this battle and head home. In the pure military sense, it does nothing for the war. The overall political impact can be small to huge, depends on butterflies.

Do the Germans retreat as they've taken some losses in the earlier part of the battle and they're now outnumbered?

The Germans probably head home before they even see the second wave of the Royal Navy. When the see the second wave, they head home even faster. Even in a win, you need to go back to port. You have shot a lot of ammo. You have taken hits. Men have died. You are low on fuel, etc.

What happens after the battle?
How does losing most of their fastest big-gun ships effect Britain's ability to contain the High Seas Fleet?

If you're Germany, what do you do next?

Absolutely not. The high seas fleet is contained by geography. For exactly the same reason the Grand Fleet does not camp 100 miles off the German coast, the HSF will not camp just outside of London. Now the emotional and political impact can be huge, but it does not change the military situation at sea. I would expect the UK to order about 1.5 to 2.0 replacement ships for each ship lost. And these resources will not be available for the land war. A bigger Jutland type battle is possible in the future month. Germany is somewhat less likely to do USW.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Well, if the loss of 1, 2 or 3 BCs led to the early investigation of BC weaknesses, then the RN would focus on fast BBs, and there might be 6 QE completed, and all of the R battleships might be completed as fast BBs as well. With Fisher still as First Sea Lord, then the construction would be fast. Fisher was a fan of speed, but I think he would learn the lessons and the idea of fast BBs would be ideal. These changes, especially the 6 QEs, would significantly affect the outcome of Jutland.
 
Well, if the loss of 1, 2 or 3 BCs led to the early investigation of BC weaknesses, then the RN would focus on fast BBs, and there might be 6 QE completed, and all of the R battleships might be completed as fast BBs as well. With Fisher still as First Sea Lord, then the construction would be fast. Fisher was a fan of speed, but I think he would learn the lessons and the idea of fast BBs would be ideal. These changes, especially the 6 QEs, would significantly affect the outcome of Jutland.
How do you significantly change the QEs or Rs with a 1915 POD ?
 
You aren't thinking of Dogger Bank, but an earlier incident when Admiral Ingenhol was at sea with the entire High Seas Fleet, and perhaps could have caught a portion of Grand fleet. That was early in the war; at Dogger bank, the High Seas Fleet wasn't nearby.

Ah, thank you:)
 
I dearly love sinking British ships. ;) Ok, the plan works well. How many British ships do you think will be sunk? Even in a win, the Germans likely lose a few ships. And many ships that are "fine" will still need repairs or even dry dock work. The Germans will win this battle and head home. In the pure military sense, it does nothing for the war. The overall political impact can be small to huge, depends on butterflies.



The Germans probably head home before they even see the second wave of the Royal Navy. When the see the second wave, they head home even faster. Even in a win, you need to go back to port. You have shot a lot of ammo. You have taken hits. Men have died. You are low on fuel, etc.



Absolutely not. The high seas fleet is contained by geography. For exactly the same reason the Grand Fleet does not camp 100 miles off the German coast, the HSF will not camp just outside of London. Now the emotional and political impact can be huge, but it does not change the military situation at sea. I would expect the UK to order about 1.5 to 2.0 replacement ships for each ship lost. And these resources will not be available for the land war. A bigger Jutland type battle is possible in the future month. Germany is somewhat less likely to do USW.

That sounds like the best summation of possibilities I've seen so far. Thanks for humoring me.
 
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