Automotive AHC/WI – A State-owned or Co-Operative UK People’s Carmaker

[Masked Grizzly]

In the OTL the UK government both during and after the war were interested in developing a UK People’s Car that could also be exported.

As such they backed Sir Roy Fedden and MP of Grantham Denis Kendall’s ill-fated respective car projects (notwithstanding their bad choice of choosing radial engines) as well as considering the possibility of appropriating the Volkswagen and tooling at Wolfsburg to send it back to the UK as war reparations.

Sir Roy Fedden at one point sought to house his growing workforce at Fedden Limited in a Wolfsburg-like works town possibly located at sites in either Newent (his preferred location) or Stoke Orchard in Gloucestershire. - http://www.ukautomedia.com/hist_sample_pge.htm

Denis Kendall's later proposals for Kendall Cars included a version of the Kendall-Beaumont prototype that was powered by a complete Volkswagen Flat-4 procured and provided by the Ministry of Supply (instead of the unreliable radial engines), prior to being superseded by a licensed built version of Jean-Albert Grégoire's AFG prototype that later became the Australian built Hartnett. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartnett_(car)

Stafford Cripps was one of those who supported the notion of a UK People’s Car, even taking on board Denis Kendall’s idea of using the Co-Operative Wholesale Society (aka The Co-operative Group) as a distribution channel for his Kendall cars, with the Co-Op themselves seriously considering entering the automotive business (along with producing commercial vehicles) having the strong and personal support of Stafford Cripps.

He asked Sir Mile Thomas to discuss with the Co-Op the possibility of them building cars, vans and lorries. Who beforehand prepared schemes to establish the Co-Op in the motor industry. Shrewdly counseling it might be better to start out with light delivery vans on the basis it would arouse the least initial hostility and suspicion, since the Co-Op needed such vans prior to later using the same components to develop and market passenger cars to be marketed at a later date.

However the Co-Op board did not seem disposed to put up the many millions of pounds needed to finance the project and they together with Sir Miles Thomas dissuaded Stafford Cripps from pressing the idea forward.

Interestingly this project had strong overtones of the original Volkswagen project, a factory built by a socialized trade union with its cars to be sold throughout the country to keep retail overheads low.

Later on the UK government sought to encourage carmakers to be located in depressed areas aka “enterprise areas” around the UK, which had a negative impact on the likes of Rootes who were forced to move to Linwood in Scotland to build the Hillman Imp instead of being allowed to expand their existing factory in Ryton, Coventry.

The challenge is to coalesce all the above proposals / projects for a UK People's Car into something much more viable without completely screwing over the UK’s OTL carmakers.

References
1) Battle for the Beetle by Karl Ludvigsen
2) Fedden – the life of Sir Roy Fedden by Bill Gunston

-Fedden-
1) Fedden's Mistake - http://ericdymock.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/feddens-mistake.html
2) Fedden Car - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedden_car

-Kendall-
1) Bit of info on the Kendall Car story along with the controversial man himself - https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/12150740043
2) Personality Meet Denis Kendall (1945)
3) French Interests in OTL would also produce Simca and Panhard Dyna X versions of the AFG Prototype.

 

[Jape]

I am deathly ignorant of the auto biz but the idea of Co-Op Motors is very fun.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Envision Fedden / Co-Op Motors being the ATL British equivalent to Volkswagen, whether it can succeed is another matter as it may end up becoming even worse than OTL British Leyland on a potentially much larger scale.

Or to put it another way, imagine at worst an ATL Volkswagen that went bankrupt in the late-60s/early-70s due to never bothering to acquire water-cooled engines and FWD technology from both DKW / Auto Union and NSU to replace its aging rear-engined RWD cars. Plus British-style industrial action and strikes from subversive unions undermining the company, with Ralph Nader going after Volkswagen with the same zeal and resultant bad publicity for the latter as he did with the Chevrolet Corvair.

Though there are indications of a hypothetical Fedden / Co-Op Motors being relatively doable in OTL if all the OTL projects were able to be coalesced into one, the fact is that Britain was bankrupt after WW2.

Cannot help but wonder whether Britain remaining in the war yet somehow managing to avoid going completely bankrupt after WW2 is possible or dependent on earlier PODs (as mentioned in the Britain performs better during the Second Industrial Revolution thread ) or other factors, so as to increase the chances of a Fedden / Co-Op Motors being established in ATL.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Forget to mention there was also the fact the British army were offering the services of Ferdinand Porsche to various British carmakers after WW2 as war reparations, with the French in OTL inviting him to review what later became the Renault 4CV prior to later being arrested by the French as a war criminal.

Before his arrest, Porsche was even asked to continue the design of the Volkswagen in France and to move the factory equipment there as part of war reparations. Communist minister Marcel Paul in particular desired nothing less than half if not all of the Volkswagen factory and all the services of the dynasty that had designed and developed it as war reparations. The French also looked to restyle the Volkswagen around the existing chassis to reduce the resemblence to the existing Beetle and give it a typical French look, however differences within the French government and objections from the French automotive industry put a halt to this project before it had even begun.

With that in mind what if the ATL Co-Op Motors utilized the services of Ferdinand Porsche to help establish themselves as a carmaker, perhaps get him to review the Fedden car design and take on his suggestions to make it more likely to enter production?

Another question that comes to mind is while some form of air-cooled Boxer engine and more sophisticated suspension (in place of the swing axle) would likely be used for the Fedden / Co-Op car, would the car feature a rear-engined RWD layout in the style of the Volkswagen and Renault 4CV (with advice from Ferdinand Porsche) or a front-engined FWD layout akin to the Panhard Dyna X?

The Panhard Dyna X was a French built production version of Jean-Albert Grégoire's AFG prototype, which spawned the later ill-fated British built Kendall and Australian built Hartnett projects.

 

[phx1138]

choosing radial engines

And you thought Preston Tucker's decision for the '48 Torpedo was bad. (These are both Hall of Fame bad calls, TBH.)

With that in mind what if the ATL Co-Op Motors utilized the services of Ferdinand Porsche to help establish themselves as a carmaker, perhaps get him to review the Fedden car design and take on his suggestions to make it more likely to enter production?

Another question that comes to mind is while some form of air-cooled Boxer engine and more sophisticated suspension (in place of the swing axle) would likely be used for the Fedden / Co-Op car, would the car feature a rear-engined RWD layout in the style of the Volkswagen and Renault 4CV (with advice from Ferdinand Porsche) or a front-engined FWD layout akin to the Panhard Dyna X?

If you can keep him out of a French prison...

The trouble is, nobody involved seemed to have any idea what a good car (or even a sensible car) was. It was as if none of them had ever driven a car, or even been in one.

Using a rebodied Type 1 pan would be the sensible decision, but I don't see the Brits (or Brit car industry) going along with that postwar.

So, what's likely? IMO, you're going to get a small Tucker Torpedo or British FIAT 500: aircooled (that's the trend), V4 or inline 4 (flat 4 is too like the Type 1), probably rear-engined (also the trend), likely solid axle (I don't see the Brits accepting the swing axle).

Who do you put in charge? Fedden is clearly incompetent. Hartnett seems little better. Issigonis? And you need an exec to run things. Poach somebody from BMC or somewhere? What about Trevor Wilkinson? Or Heinrich Nordhoff (ex-Opel)? (Can I put in a vote for Carl Hahn, OTL from VW Canada?) (If it turns out to be Nordhoff, I picture comments like, "Their Germans are better than our Germans".)

ATL Volkswagen that went bankrupt in the late-60s/early-70s due to never bothering to acquire water-cooled engines and FWD technology from both DKW / Auto Union and NSU to replace its aging rear-engined RWD cars. Plus British-style industrial action and strikes from subversive unions undermining the company, with Ralph Nader going after Volkswagen with the same zeal and resultant bad publicity for the latter as he did with the Chevrolet Corvair.

The first is reasonable. The last is depressingly possible. No industrial action by British unions? That sounds ASB.

Cannot help but wonder whether Britain remaining in the war yet somehow managing to avoid going completely bankrupt after WW2 is possible or dependent on earlier PODs (as mentioned in the Britain performs better during the Second Industrial Revolution thread ) or other factors, so as to increase the chances of a Fedden / Co-Op Motors being established in ATL.

I'm not sure you can save Britain from bankruptcy without a decision around the time Winston decided to hand over tech to the U.S. gratis.

Once Britain's in (fairly dire) financial straits, the decision to focus on exporting cars at the expense of domestic seems pretty locked in. The limits on steel production then mean total car production is limited, unless somebody gets a brainwave & uses fiberglass (or is, at least, paying attention to what Chevy is doing...), & even that doesn't eliminate the curbs (just raises the ceiling).

And then you've got VW, which is the 800pd gorilla in this scenario. Unless you strangle the postwar civilian Type 1 in the cradle... This is another case of Chevy taking on the Model T. The British *VW has to be better. It has to offer features the Type 1 doesn't. It has to be at least as durable & at least as easy to work on: picture as tough as a Lada, & as sexy as an Innocenti Mini (or a Bertone Mini). It has to be price competitive, but could be (somewhat) more costly. If VW management in the '47-'60 (or so) period is competent at all, it's going to be tough as hell to beat the Type 1.

A thought: getting a movie or (better yet) TV series to use it (assuming you can get past the radial engine decision) would be a great idea. Say, "The Saint"? (Bond wouldn't be caught dead in one...even if it can function as a miniature submarine, too.) If it's durable, cheap, & economical enough, you might sell them to Metro Police, & see them on a British cop show. Same criteria might make them attractive taxis...& OTL, the Type 1 was never offered as a 4-door...

 

[Masked Grizzly]

And you thought Preston Tucker's decision for the '48 Torpedo was bad. (These are both Hall of Fame bad calls, TBH.)

There were other more realistic engine options (mainly sleeve-valve though including a poppet-valve unit) considered by Fedden for various car proposals from a small rear-engined 946cc Flat-4 sleeve-valve and front-engined inline-4 with poppet-valves to a front-engined 72 hp 5-seater 1800cc V4 with sleeve-valves to a front-engined 104 hp 6-seater 2600cc V6 with sleeve-valves. Though unsure whether cars with sleeve or poppet valves would have been suitable for the post-war era.

Along with its FWD layout another advantage of Jean-Albert Grégoire's AFG prototype would be its use of aluminum that would benefit Fedden / Co-Op motors until the early/mid-50s during the post-war steel shortages.

W.O. Bentley meanwhile who owned and was influenced by the pre-war Citroen Traction Avant, considered FWD to be ideal for a small economy car.

He envisioned on paper at least an air-cooled ultra-lightweight 5-cylinder radial unit driving the front-wheels, though W.O. Bentley also considered an air-cooled Flat-6 (akin to what was planned with the post-war Citroen DS) with Citroen-type transmission layout and torsion bar suspension as well as the all-alloy air-cooled Flat-4 tested in a Morris Minor for an unknown American client to propel an aircraft.

The trouble is, nobody involved seemed to have any idea what a good car (or even a sensible car) was. It was as if none of them had ever driven a car, or even been in one.

While everyone's ideas were underdeveloped in OTL, the idea is to merge the most viable aspects of each project in ATL with guidence from the likes of Ferdinand Porsche and Jean-Albert Grégoire as well as contributions from the likes of Roy Fedden and even W.O. Bentley. Interestingly other people involved with the Fedden project were Peter Ware who was later involved with the Hillman Imp and Alex Moulton who worked on rubber suspension for Fedden, Alvis and BMC (including the Mini).

Issigonis was still at Morris until 1952 then returned to BMC from Alvis in 1956, however Fedden / Co-Op motors could have gained info regarding the FWD Morris Minor prototype (TFC 717) he was working on prior to his departure to Alvis featuring transverse-mounted engine and end-on gearbox that may or may not have featured rubber suspension (the layout later used by Dante Giacossa for the Fiat 128).

Then again the government or the Co-Op might consider replacing their range with a somewhat more conventional (and cheaper) front-engined RWD layout from the mid/late-60s. Possibly featuring quirky styling, air-cooled rough V-angle engines, Marina/Chevette/Escort-style conventional suspension or rubber suspension (or another option) with various idiosyncratic features. - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1662380&i=0

With a new mid/late-60s model potentially featuring Austin Allegro / Ogle SX1000 inspired styling that was allegedly more aerodynamic going backwards and mated to Variomatic CVT under license from DAF allowing a car to go as fast in reverse as it does going forwards, ishould be quite competitive in Reverse Racing.

Was initially thinking of Fedden / Co-Op Motors using air-cooled Boxer engines (from 2 to 6-cylinders) along with possibly a range-topping Tatra-style air-cooled V8 for export markets, prior to later embracing air-cooled V-angle 4/6-cylinder engines. Suspension being either fully independent, with rear semi-trailing arms or some form of Alex Moulton rubber suspension. Along with some form of Continuously Variable Transmission (DAF Variomatic, Hobbs Mechamatic*, Honda Hydrostatic*) during the 1950s for cars producing below 100 hp (the figure being the limit of the Variomatic gearbox at the time).

Styling wise was thinking of something along the lines of the existing Fedden prototype for the post-war cars though with aerodynamic elements from the Volkswagen Beetle-based V2 Sagitta*, ranging from a Porsche equivalent of the Fiat 500 (akin to the 0.6-litre Flat-Twin? Porsche Type 675 or 1-litre Flat-4 Porsche Type 534* prototypes) to a post-war Tatra-style flagship.

Otherwise unsure whether to have the Fedden / Co-Op Cars feature a rear-engined RWD Beetle layout or a front-engined FWD Panhard layout.

The first is reasonable. The last is depressingly possible. No industrial action by British unions? That sounds ASB.

Am basically envisioning a British equivalent of Volkswagen including the usual industrial action by British unions with Ralph Nader focusing his attention on the ATL Co-Op motors (albeit in an optional scenario where the Corvair receives the 2nd generation model's suspension from the outset effectively butterflying away the Corvair's OTL issues with Nader focusing his attention on other cars).

Perhaps Fedden / Co-Op Motors also ends up involved with Citroen and NSU's Comotor joint-venture wankel engine project that helps bring the company to its knees, though not to the point of ultimately fitting a wankel engine to its cars like the other two carmakers.

Also to not envision the company producing dangerous cars like the OTL Ford Pinto or other cars considered the worst*, just quirky and largely inferior with its only good features being its rust-proofing and reliability.


*Hobbs Mechamatic Gearbox - https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9244
*Honda Hydrostatic Gearbox also known as Human Friendly Transmission - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Friendly_Transmission
*Volkswagen Beetle-based V2 Sagitta - http://www.carscoops.com/2013/03/1947-vw-beetle-based-v2-sagittar-is.html
*Porsche Type 534 - https://drive-my.com/en/history/47-the-histories-of-porsche-and-volkswagen.html
* List of automobiles considered the Worst - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobiles_considered_the_worst

 

[Masked Grizzly]

The following article on DeLorean by Karl Ludvigsen has a brief mention on Denis Kendall and how the actions of the latter may have colored the view of Grantham resident Margaret Thatcher later on with John DeLorean, along with potentially the British car industry as a whole.

I believe that Margaret Thatcher's view of John DeLorean was coloured by her youthful recollections of a free-wheeling Grantham entrepreneur, Denis Kendall, whose nascent car-building enterprise crashed in 1946 with debts of almost half a million pounds in the town where her father was mayor.

https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/delorean-story-the-end_id86317.aspx

 

[marathag]

The following article on DeLorean by Karl Ludvigsen has a brief mention on Denis Kendall and how the actions of the latter may have colored the view of Grantham resident Margaret Thatcher later on with John DeLorean, along with potentially the British car industry as a whole.
https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/delorean-story-the-end_id86317.aspx

If anything, should have been more skeptical of John D's claims

 

[phx1138]

There were other more realistic engine options (mainly sleeve-valve though including a poppet-valve unit) considered by Fedden for various car proposals from a small rear-engined 946cc Flat-4 sleeve-valve and front-engined inline-4 with poppet-valves to a front-engined 72 hp 5-seater 1800cc V4 with sleeve-valves to a front-engined 104 hp 6-seater 2600cc V6 with sleeve-valves.

I'd probably pick the sleeve-valve V4, but rear-mounted, & only about 900cc; in '47, as big as 1800cc seems a bit much. Going up to 1800cc & a V6 later seems reasonable, tho; might take til 1960 to get there...

I'm not sure a sleeve-valve is driver-friendly, either...

Along with its FWD layout another advantage of Jean-Albert Grégoire's AFG prototype would be its use of aluminum that would benefit Fedden / Co-Op motors until the early/mid-50s during the post-war steel shortages.

W.O. Bentley meanwhile who owned and was influenced by the pre-war Citroen Traction Avant, considered FWD to be ideal for a small economy car.

He envisioned on paper at least an air-cooled ultra-lightweight 5-cylinder radial unit driving the front-wheels, though W.O. Bentley also considered an air-cooled Flat-6 (akin to what was planned with the post-war Citroen DS) with Citroen-type transmission layout and torsion bar suspension as well as the all-alloy air-cooled Flat-4 tested in a Morris Minor for an unknown American client to propel an aircraft.

Huh. I'd neglected the Traction Avant... And Citroën were building FWDs, too, weren't they? So FWD isn't outrageous.

I'd count the Sagitta as too odd to succeed; I'd pick the Typ 534 or EA97. I also like the EA48.

guidence from the likes of Ferdinand Porsche and Jean-Albert Grégoire as well as contributions from the likes of Roy Fedden and even W.O. Bentley. ...Issigonis was still at Morris

What I'm thinking is less ideas & more actual hands-on control or team leadership (or corporate leadership, going up a notch or two). Bentley might be persuaded to take over as CEO/Chair, do you think?

If W.O. does come aboard, maybe you can attract some of his former colleagues to help run the production side? Or attract talent from, say, Bristol?

Was initially thinking of Fedden / Co-Op Motors using air-cooled Boxer engines (from 2 to 6-cylinders) along with possibly a range-topping Tatra-style air-cooled V8 for export markets, prior to later embracing air-cooled V-angle 4/6-cylinder engines. Suspension being either fully independent, with rear semi-trailing arms or some form of Alex Moulton rubber suspension. Along with some form of Continuously Variable Transmission (DAF Variomatic, Hobbs Mechamatic*, Honda Hydrostatic*) during the 1950s for cars producing below 100 hp (the figure being the limit of the Variomatic gearbox at the time).

Fully IRS would be a really big deal, if you could pull it off & not end up with evil handling. I suppose a *Chapman strut is too much to ask so soon?

Am basically envisioning a British equivalent of Volkswagen including the usual industrial action by British unions with Ralph Nader focusing his attention on the ATL Co-Op motors (albeit in an optional scenario where the Corvair receives the 2nd generation model's suspension from the outset effectively butterflying away the Corvair's OTL issues with Nader focusing his attention on other cars).

I meant Nader targeting *VW, not *British Notional Motors, thereby putting the hammer to the Type 1. Avoiding British union action seems essential for success, seeing it so severely hampered even Jag.

Perhaps Fedden / Co-Op Motors also ends up involved with Citroen and NSU's Comotor joint-venture wankel engine project that helps bring the company to its knees, though not to the point of ultimately fitting a wankel engine to its cars like the other two carmakers.

Unless they're actually going to use it, spending the $$ seems like a bad call.

Also to not envision the company producing dangerous cars like the OTL Ford Pinto or other cars considered the worst*, just quirky and largely inferior with its only good features being its rust-proofing and reliability.

If that's as good as it gets, you might (just) survive long enough to attract the counter-culture. You're going to have tough competition in both areas from *VW, which also has the price edge. An inferior product that's more expensive...? I'd sooner believe *VW drowns you in cheaper cars of comparable quality before 1955.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I'd probably pick the sleeve-valve V4, but rear-mounted, & only about 900cc; in '47, as big as 1800cc seems a bit much. Going up to 1800cc & a V6 later seems reasonable, tho; might take til 1960 to get there...

I'm not sure a sleeve-valve is driver-friendly, either...

Though one could argue it would be a direct imitation of the Beetle, the Boxer engine route seems the most logical given how many considered during OTL in the UK though would use OHV in place of the Sleeve-Valve.

The V4/V6 engine family would be for when Fedden / Co-Op begins to switch to a more conventional front-engined RWD layout (akin to the European Taunus and Essex V4/V6 engine families). Following in the steps of the air-cooled V4 rear-engined ZAZ Zaporozhets would be too easy compared to a Porsche-designed equivalent of the Puch 500, with V2 Sagitta aerodynamic styling and Panhard Flat-Twin engine (in OTL a Fiat 500 with the engine swapped for a Panhard 850cc Tigre unit was capable of at least 105 mph).

Like the idea of government interference or some other monumental screw-ups during development of the V4/V6 and later water-cooled V8 engines resulting in a situation where all 3 engines have the wrong V-angle (e.g. 60-degree V4, 90-degree V6 and 60-degree V8).

I'd count the Sagitta as too odd to succeed; I'd pick the Typ 534 or EA97. I also like the EA48.

Am mainly interested in the aerodynamic benefits of the V2 Sagitta since it would potentially allow for a smaller low powered car to go much quicker without using too much fuel.

Not keen on the EA97 due to being too similar to the Volkswagen Beetle, otherwise open to Porsche overtones such as the Type 534, Type 675 and Porsche-Studebaker Type 633 and Type 542.

Quite like the Jowett Javalin-like appearance of the Fedden prototype. Also the Avanti-like EA53 Ghia prototype that with styling cues from the AMC Pacer / Renault Le Car at the front and Austin Allegro at the rear, would make for an interesting front-engined RWD V4 powered car from the mid/late-1960s.

What I'm thinking is less ideas & more actual hands-on control or team leadership (or corporate leadership, going up a notch or two). Bentley might be persuaded to take over as CEO/Chair, do you think?

If W.O. does come aboard, maybe you can attract some of his former colleagues to help run the production side? Or attract talent from, say, Bristol?

Rolls-Royce might seek to penalize W.O. Bentley like they did in OTL over perceived usage and ideas from his namesake.

Sir Mile Thomas who was managing director at Morris might be suitable though he would have been better off succeeding William Morris and helping the company grow prior to merging with Austin.

Another candidate would be John Black of Standard-Triumph until the early/mid-1950s when he was forced into retirement officially for health reasons after an accident, yet some believe other factors were involved.

Otherwise believe Sir Roy Fedden with the right guidance and advice (that he did not receive in OTL) is capable of assuming leadership for the first few years, it would be like calling Porsche incompetent for developing the Porsche Type 12 for Zundapp prior to the Volkswagen Beetle.

I meant Nader targeting *VW, not *British Notional Motors, thereby putting the hammer to the Type 1. Avoiding British union action seems essential for success, seeing it so severely hampered even Jag.

Without the Corvair, the rear-engined Volkswagens would have been the main targets. A version of Fedden / Co-Op whose models remain rear-engined would also be likely targets.

In theory the existence of Fedden / Co-Op motors would allow other British carmakers a way to gradually downsize their workforce without too much fuss, since the company is in essence a glorified too-big-to-fall make-work government / Co-Op program built and run by unions with sites largely located in depressed areas aka “enterprise areas” around the UK (thereby allow existing UK carmakers to expand existing sites or built new factories more locally compared to OTL).

Unless they're actually going to use it, spending the $$ seems like a bad call.

Before the problems with the Wankel engine became widely known it was once viewed as the future and besides collaborating with other carmakers would have likely appealed to the government who have other motivations (e.g. integration with the continent, possible plans to eventually offload Fedden / Co-Op motors, etc), especially in the event the UK enters the EEC in the during 1960s or in preparation for joining the EEC in OTL.

Perhaps it even lays the ground for the establishment of a BL/AMC-style "Euro Motors" via mergers with other European carmakers! Imagine the merger of British unions with their French and Italian counterparts who sometimes preferred assassination (with Renault's Georges Besse* being a notable victim).

*Georges Besse - https://jalopnik.com/when-one-frenchmans-assassination-killed-an-entire-ame-1554337019

If that's as good as it gets, you might (just) survive long enough to attract the counter-culture. You're going to have tough competition in both areas from *VW, which also has the price edge. An inferior product that's more expensive...? I'd sooner believe *VW drowns you in cheaper cars of comparable quality before 1955.

Basically Fedden / Co-Op would be in essence the same as Volkswagen in terms of the latter's perceived inferiority yet being otherwise reliable, though possibly with certain elements from the French and the Dutch.

 

[Seandineen]

What if Wilson and sunny Jim adopted this approach to "save" british leyland?

 

[Masked Grizzly]

What if Wilson and sunny Jim adopted this approach to "save" british leyland?

The PODs for this ATL UK People's Car project would be during and after WW2. British Leyland would have likely never been formed in such a scenario, while there is little guarantee Austin and Morris would have merged to establish BMC let alone merged in the same way as in OTL.

The closest thing would probably resemble the "Cuba without the sunshine" counterfactual a few years back in the Daily Mail, where Tony Benn's solution to dire state of the British car industry was to strike a deal with East Germany to buy 250.000 Trabants.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

There was one other individual who was involved with the Fedden car project, Ian Duncan who later developed the Duncan Dragonfly which featured FWD, transverse engine, in-sump gearbox and rubber suspension that would all appear years later in the Mini.

An interested element would have been for Fedden / Co-Op motors to somehow acquire 4WD tech from the Ferguson Research car prototypes given the perceived safety benefits for when they eventually decided to switch to a front-engined layout.

Another thing I overlooked is the potential for Fedden / Co-Op to produce an ATL Invacar (ideally a 4-wheeler), since the OTL Invacar did use air-cooled Flat-Twin engines from the Puch 500 and the Co-Op version would also likely make use of an air-cooled Flat-Twin engine.

 

[yulzari]

Whilst it is fascinating to see the weird and wonderful engineering concepts on offer, if we look at OTL we see that the successful (i.e. profitable) companies stuck with RWD front engine until the FWD systems were mature in the 1980's. The exception was VW which lead the rear overhung engine alternative (with the French and Italians) until they could swap to the FWD mainstream when it was mature. In Britain the Morris Minor/Major chassis could have ruled the roost with proper production engineering, quality production investment until the end of the 1970's as an example. BMW still make a virtue of being RWD front engined.

The point is that one needs to keep in sight the purpose of a car maker. That is to make money not gain engineering awards for cunning plans. Profitable house builders build rectangular house with pitched roofs. Award winning architects build weird shapes that are applauded by people who actually spend their money on conventional housing.

 

[phx1138]

Though one could argue it would be a direct imitation of the Beetle, the Boxer engine route seems the most logical given how many considered during OTL in the UK though would use OHV in place of the Sleeve-Valve.

IDK how widely-accepted the boxer was in Britain in the '30s & '40s, which is why I suggest the vee. OHV would be good, as opposed to flathead (sidevalve)/F-head (IOE), but the flatty option seems more likely. For the same reasons, IMO aircooled is less probable.

Am mainly interested in the aerodynamic benefits of the V2 Sagitta since it would potentially allow for a smaller low powered car to go much quicker without using too much fuel.

Noted, & if you keep some of its features, you might do that. However, you risk commercial failure if you're too close. Recall the '53 Studes, & the Chrysler Airflow...

Not keen on the EA97 due to being too similar to the Volkswagen Beetle, otherwise open to Porsche overtones such as the Type 534, Type 675 and Porsche-Studebaker Type 633 and Type 542.

I like the Type 542 or 633, presuming they're on something like an Anglia wheelbase.

Quite like the Jowett Javalin-like appearance of the Fedden prototype. Also the Avanti-like EA53 Ghia prototype that with styling cues from the AMC Pacer / Renault Le Car at the front and Austin Allegro at the rear, would make for an interesting front-engined RWD V4 powered car from the mid/late-1960s.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/1b/17/1f1b17ff76429c783d23ffb5b6fee963--old-cars-jaco.jpg[/url]
If you did one like this (which came up when I googled "EA53 Ghia"), you could pre-empt the VW KG. (And I'm not sure if that's :eek: or :cool:.)
[QUOTE="Masked Grizzly, post: 16065261"] Rolls-Royce might seek to penalize W.O. Bentley like they did in OTL over perceived usage and ideas from his namesake.

Sir Mile Thomas who was managing director at Morris might be suitable though he would have been better off succeeding William Morris and helping the company grow prior to merging with Austin.

Another candidate would be John Black of Standard-Triumph until the early/mid-1950s when he was forced into retirement officially for health reasons after an accident, yet some believe other factors were involved.

Otherwise believe Sir Roy Fedden with the right guidance and advice (that he did not receive in OTL) is capable of assuming leadership for the first few years, it would be like calling Porsche incompetent for developing the Porsche Type 12 for Zundapp prior to the Volkswagen Beetle. [/quote]
Any one of them looks good to me, even if only to supervise while Fedden does the actual work...
[QUOTE="Masked Grizzly, post: 16065261"] the company is in essence a glorified too-big-to-fall make-work government / Co-Op program

Basically Fedden / Co-Op would be in essence the same as Volkswagen in terms of the latter's perceived inferiority yet being otherwise reliable, though possibly with certain elements from the French and the Dutch.[/QUOTE]
I keep forgetting that part. If it's not a strictly commercial enterprise, a lot of my complaints are moot.
[QUOTE="Masked Grizzly, post: 160669437"] Fedden / Co-Op motors to somehow acquire 4WD tech from the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Research']Ferguson Research[/URL] car prototypes

...produce an ATL Invacar (ideally a 4-wheeler),[/QUOTE]
I don't see why you couldn't, even if you don't do it in switching to FWD. And given exposure to the Jeep, a desire for 4wd & an off-roader wouldn't be unreasonable; applying 4wd to a road car would be a small step from that. (To *Quattro? To rallycar success?:eek:)

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Whilst it is fascinating to see the weird and wonderful engineering concepts on offer, if we look at OTL we see that the successful (i.e. profitable) companies stuck with RWD front engine until the FWD systems were mature in the 1980's. The exception was VW which lead the rear overhung engine alternative (with the French and Italians) until they could swap to the FWD mainstream when it was mature. In Britain the Morris Minor/Major chassis could have ruled the roost with proper production engineering, quality production investment until the end of the 1970's as an example. BMW still make a virtue of being RWD front engined.

The point is that one needs to keep in sight the purpose of a car maker. That is to make money not gain engineering awards for cunning plans. Profitable house builders build rectangular house with pitched roofs. Award winning architects build weird shapes that are applauded by people who actually spend their money on conventional housing.

That may be the case yet the intention behind this ATL is the UK's own post-war People's Car project (a viable amalgamation of various OTL projects including the establishment of a Wolfsburg-like works town) manages to get off the ground, whether it manages to achieve the same success as OTL Volkswagen is another matter though would not completely rule it out (perhaps with better marketing and movie / tv roles that shamelessly highlights the Beetle's German origins as well as its relatively superiority over the Beetle and other rear-engined Volkswagens, along with ruthlessly highlighting the Beetle's usage of swing-axles).

Having said that Fedden / Co-Op motors would have likely sought to gradually switch to a more conventional front-engined RWD layout later on from the 1960s, partly because the government and Co-Op would have been reluctant to invest in the FWD layout and would have likely sought to offload the company at the first opportunity in the event of any union troubles or if the company becomes too much of a burden.

IDK how widely-accepted the boxer was in Britain in the '30s & '40s, which is why I suggest the vee. OHV would be good, as opposed to flathead (sidevalve)/F-head (IOE), but the flatty option seems more likely. For the same reasons, IMO aircooled is less probable.

Jowett is one car marker that consistently made use of boxer engines and had more plans to do the same when they later closed down, along with Rover via the post-WW1 Rover 8.

Air-cooled flat engines would have likely been chosen due to their simplicity and low centre of gravity in a rear-engined layout until the water-cooled V4/V6 engine family appears in the mid/late-1960s for the front-engined RWD cars, it is possible the Tatra-like flagship switches to water-cooling though cannot see it if the latter remains rear-engined.

Noted, & if you keep some of its features, you might do that. However, you risk commercial failure if you're too close. Recall the '53 Studes, & the Chrysler Airflow...

Should be possible to craft tastefully aerodynamic styling, another bit of inspiration at least for the front-end would be the streamlined Renault CX15 prototype.

I like the Type 542 or 633, presuming they're on something like an Anglia wheelbase.

Interestingly the OTL Porsche-Studebaker Type 633 was only a few inches longer than the later Volkswagen Type 3 and powered by an 83 hp air-cooled 2-litre Flat-4 engine.

If you did one like this (which came up when I googled "EA53 Ghia"), you could pre-empt the VW KG. (And I'm not sure if that's or .)

Meant the following EA53 Ghia prototype below, though being front-engined RWD would feature similar styling cues to the AMC Pacer and Renault Le Car at the front including the grille.

Yet guess the styling could perhaps carry over to the rear-engined Fedden / Co-Op cars during the 1950s as opposed to later on.

I don't see why you couldn't, even if you don't do it in switching to FWD. And given exposure to the Jeep, a desire for 4wd & an off-roader wouldn't be unreasonable; applying 4wd to a road car would be a small step from that. (To *Quattro? To rallycar success?)

That would depend on how the company progresses, the Invacar already managed to gain the support of the UK government though it is a wonder why they kept the 3-wheeled layout when even the Soviet SMZ cycle-car aka Invalidka eventually featured 4-wheels.

Do not envision a British Quattro from Fedden / Co-Op potentially using the Ferguson 4WD system, more nanny state equivalent of Volvo in terms of safety assuming the company could afford it, otherwise it may be limited to commercial vehicles or the Tatra-like flagship (including ministerial versions for government officials and even the prime minister).

 

[phx1138]

Air-cooled flat engines would have likely been chosen due to their simplicity and low centre of gravity in a rear-engined layout until the water-cooled V4/V6 engine family appears in the mid/late-1960s for the front-engined RWD cars

I'm not seeing the Cg benefit is huge... Weight behind the rear axle would affect handling more, wouldn't it?

Should be possible to craft tastefully aerodynamic styling, another bit of inspiration at least for the front-end would be the streamlined Renault CX15 prototype.

That's not too bad. IMO, you still risk the "can't tell if it's coming or going" that plagued the '52-3 Starlight...

...like this one.

Interestingly the OTL Porsche-Studebaker Type 633 was only a few inches longer than the later Volkswagen Type 3 and powered by an 83 hp air-cooled 2-litre Flat-4 engine.

Huh. It looks bigger.

Meant the following EA53 Ghia prototype below

I like the styling, except for the headlights. Too Avanti-esque for me (&, I'd bet, for most buyers). Stick with the 633--unless you've got HMG influence on design & you want a "weirdness factor"...

Do not envision a British Quattro from Fedden / Co-Op potentially using the Ferguson 4WD system, more nanny state equivalent of Volvo in terms of safety assuming the company could afford it, otherwise it may be limited to commercial vehicles or the Tatra-like flagship (including ministerial versions for government officials and even the prime minister).

Works for me.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I'm not seeing the Cg benefit is huge... Weight behind the rear axle would affect handling more, wouldn't it?

Would probably not be too bad if initially starting with a Panhard styled Flat-Twin, weight reduction on other Boxer engines could be mitigated by casting the engines in all-alloy which was possible as early as the 1950s.

That's not too bad. IMO, you still risk the "can't tell if it's coming or going" that plagued the '52-3 Starlight...

Mainly interested in the front-end as opposed to the rest of the body.

Huh. It looks bigger.

Details of the Type 633 concept are mentioned in Karl Ludvigsen's Battle for the Beetle book.

I like the styling, except for the headlights. Too Avanti-esque for me (&, I'd bet, for most buyers). Stick with the 633--unless you've got HMG influence on design & you want a "weirdness factor"...

The good thing about the front is that it potentially allows for an earlier Droopsnoot style front-end to be a possibility, whether along the lines of the Vauxhall Firenza / Vauxhall Chevette / mk1 Vauxhall Cavalier or the mk2 Ford Escort RS2000.

 

[phx1138]

The good thing about the front is that it potentially allows for an earlier Droopsnoot style front-end to be a possibility, whether along the lines of the Vauxhall Firenza / Vauxhall Chevette / mk1 Vauxhall Cavalier or the mk2 Ford Escort RS2000.

It looks to me like the Type 633 has (some of) that already; besides which, the shovel nose of the Stude Commander (like this one

was too radical for the era. Not to mention, you need an engine that will allow you hood clearance.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

It looks to me like the Type 633 has (some of) that already; besides which, the shovel nose of the Stude Commander (like this onewas too radical for the era. Not to mention, you need an engine that will allow you hood clearance.

The Type 633 was rear-engined though and intended for Studebaker in OTL, whereas any ATL Fedden / Co-Op equivalent would have featured the same rear-engined RWD (plus air-cooled Flat-4) layout yet with different styling.