An Alternate Husband for Karoline of Brunswick?

[JonasResende]

We all know about her unhappy marriage with the future George IV, but which gave rise to several interesting comments from her:

When asked about her wedding night, she responded that the prince was drunk and spent the night in the grate "where he fell, and where I left him".
When she heard the rumours doing the rounds that because she'd taken a shine to little William Austin he was her bastard son, she told the Londoners "prove it! And he shall be your next king!"
And when asked in the divorce proceedings whether she had ever committed adultery, she confessed: "only once, with the husband of Mrs. FitzHerbert".

However, for my TL, George IV has married her older sister Auguste, while the Princess Royal has married her OTL husband as a first - rather than a second - wife. What of Karoline? Were there ever any other suitors considered for her? I don't recall Flora Fraser mentioning any in her bio on Karoline (however, I read The Unruly Queen over a decade ago, so I could be overlooking them, I read once that she was considered by Josef II for the future Franz II (before Joe decided on Elisabeth of Württemberg), but I could never find corroboration of this). And where would be the most likely place for her to wed? A Habsburg match could be fun - Karoline's personality seems like she would create a scandal with almost any husband.

 

[chateauroux]

Interesting scenario. When do George IV and Auguste marry? Personally I think the younger the better - though I think Auguste was slightly more attractive and not quite as wild as her younger sister so she might have been less objectionable to Prinny. I know that in OTL Auguste was disgraced, but I think that had more to do with her husband's behaviour than her own character.

Princess Royal Charlotte marrying her OTL husband as his first wife would also be interesting. Would he treat her as badly as he did Auguste? As she is the daughter of the British King perhaps not.

One possible husband for Karoline is Frederick VI of Denmark. They are almost exactly the same age and first cousins. If not him then, if the George and Auguste marriage went well she might be married to one of George's younger brothers, or to one of the numerous German Princes who inhabited the small German states.

 

[isabella]

Elisabeth of Württemberg is the logical choice for Franz II if Joseph II want an alliance with Russia as he wished in OTL so Karoline will not be choised in her place.

 

[JonasResende]

Interesting scenario. When do George IV and Auguste marry? Personally I think the younger the better - though I think Auguste was slightly more attractive and not quite as wild as her younger sister so she might have been less objectionable to Prinny. I know that in OTL Auguste was disgraced, but I think that had more to do with her husband's behaviour than her own character.

Princess Royal Charlotte marrying her OTL husband as his first wife would also be interesting. Would he treat her as badly as he did Auguste? As she is the daughter of the British King perhaps not.

One possible husband for Karoline is Frederick VI of Denmark. They are almost exactly the same age and first cousins. If not him then, if the George and Auguste marriage went well she might be married to one of George's younger brothers, or to one of the numerous German Princes who inhabited the small German states.

Well, George and Auguste marry in 1780 (when she married her Württemberger husband), Charlotte marries the duke around the same time (mostly because George III while he doesn't want her at home, also is scared that by wedding her to the prince of Denmark that she'll end up like his sister, Caroline, so settles for a lower match). Freddie, duke of York, marries Liesl of Prussia, but she's the daughter of Friedrich Wilhelm II and his Hessian wife (his Brunswicker bride being unavaible, since she's serving as wife to a surviving Pyotr III). Clarence is the eldest boy unmarried - and I'm thinking of going with a match between him and the daughter of the king of America (his uncle, the duke of Gloucester), Sophia Matilda, during George III's first dance with porphyria at the end of the 1780s.

Another sobbing bride emerges from the court of Berlin as the Prince of Prussia’s oldest daughter, Princess Elisabeth Charlotte Ulrike ‘Lieschen’ (b.1768) is married to the second son of King George III of Great Britain, Prince Frederick, Duke of York. George has already married his oldest son, George, Prince of Wales to his cousin, Princess Auguste Amalie of Brunswick (b.1764) in 1780, with two infant children, Princess Charlotte (b.1782) and Prince George, who will be born later this year [1784]. And although Denmark’s Crown Prince keeps angling for one of George’s daughters (promising to dismiss any and all other candidates), George is mindful of what happened to his unfortunate younger sister who married the king of Denmark (that was part of the reason that he accepted a significantly lower marriage for his eldest daughter, Charlotte).

In London, King George III oversees the birth of his first grandchild from his favourite second son, the duke of York and his Prussian bride, Prince Frederick Christian Charles. It’s also going to be the last grandchild from said marriage, since the duke and duchess can barely stand one another. The child’s christening is accompanied by one of the family rows that have come to characterize the Hannoverians. The Prince of Wales – standing proxy for his cousin, the Prince Regent of Denmark – gets into an argument with his father about the heir’s correspondence with the king of Appalachia/duke of Gloucester. The princess of Wales and the queen try to separate the two bickering men, which, although mildly successful, only results in further repressed hostility. The duke of York ends up red-faced and angry, and the duchess in tears: add a screaming baby to the mix and its small wonder that the baby will wind up being neglected by both parents.

The prince of Denmark I figure will probably be refused to be matched with Karoline from both sides (his, because she's related to stepgrandma Juliane; and from hers (or rather, her mom's) because of what happened to Caroline Mathilde in Denmark). Granted, the duchess of Brunswick spent more time in London than in Germany IIRC, but I have a feeling she'd react rather strongly to the idea of this.

Elisabeth of Württemberg is the logical choice for Franz II if Joseph II want an alliance with Russia as he wished in OTL so Karoline will not be choised in her place.

As I said, I've never been able to find corroboration for reading that Karoline was ever considered for Franz, so I'll dismiss it as rumour for now (or until better evidence comes to light). Although, Karoline, considering the Welf relations to the Hohenzollerns and the British royal family, might make an equally useful bride for Franz should Josef decide on an Austro-British alliance instead of one with Russia.

 

[isabella]

As I said, I've never been able to find corroboration for reading that Karoline was ever considered for Franz, so I'll dismiss it as rumour for now (or until better evidence comes to light). Although, Karoline, considering the Welf relations to the Hohenzollerns and the British royal family, might make an equally useful bride for Franz should Josef decide on an Austro-British alliance instead of one with Russia.

Yes, if Joseph II will go for a wedding alliance with Britain, Karoline will be a logical candidate considering who a wedding to Franz, who is Joseph’s heir presuntive will require a conversion if the choised bride is not already Catholic so any proper English princess as bride is unlikely

 

[JonasResende]

I was also wondering about Maximilian Josef of Pfalz-Zweibrucken. OTL, he tried to marry Luise of Prussia (OTL Princess Radziwill), but her dad refused to part with her until she reached a certain age. and Max wasn't willing to wait, so he married Auguste of Hesse (cousin of the Prussian queen instead). Luise had also been considered for the duke of York IIRC. Auguste is unavailable here (married to Josef II's son), so might Max go for Karoline? As I pointed out, her mother's the English king's sister; her nephews are the heirs to the thrones of England and Denmark; and her paternal grandmother, as well as two great-aunts are married into the Hohenzollerns. She's about as close to Hohenzollern one could get without being a Hohenzollern princess. (Neither of Max's wives OTL were Catholic, so AFAIK, religion wouldn't have caused any major issues - IIRC, Karoline of Baden stayed Protestant until she died, and there was a scene at her funeral by the Catholic clerics - which seems to indicate that the Pfalz-Zweibrucken's religion played second fiddle to their ambition).

 

[isabella]

I was also wondering about Maximilian Josef of Pfalz-Zweibrucken. OTL, he tried to marry Luise of Prussia (OTL Princess Radziwill), but her dad refused to part with her until she reached a certain age. and Max wasn't willing to wait, so he married Auguste of Hesse (cousin of the Prussian queen instead). Luise had also been considered for the duke of York IIRC. Auguste is unavailable here (married to Josef II's son), so might Max go for Karoline? As I pointed out, her mother's the English king's sister; her nephews are the heirs to the thrones of England and Denmark; and her paternal grandmother, as well as two great-aunts are married into the Hohenzollerns. She's about as close to Hohenzollern one could get without being a Hohenzollern princess. (Neither of Max's wives OTL were Catholic, so AFAIK, religion wouldn't have caused any major issues - IIRC, Karoline of Baden stayed Protestant until she died, and there was a scene at her funeral by the Catholic clerics - which seems to indicate that the Pfalz-Zweibrucken's religion played second fiddle to their ambition).

Joseph II has a son in your TL? From what wife if I can ask? And Joseph is not interested in an alliance with Russia there?
Yes Karoline for Max would make sense here...

 

[JonasResende]

Joseph II has a son in your TL? From what wife if I can ask? And Joseph is not interested in an alliance with Russia there?
Yes Karoline for Max would make sense here...

Isabella gives birth to a son in 1763, instead of miscarrying the pregnancy in January of that year (as OTL). He also has a son by his second, Portuguese infanta wife (Maria Benedita) in 1775. As to no Russian alliance, Pyotr III survives his coup (and Ekaterina ends up in a convent), and remarries to the OTL first wife of Friedrich Wilhelm II (Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick). Russia continues on a pro-Prussian course, although Paul I's first wife (Wilhelmine of Hesse-Darmstadt) also survives here, which makes Auguste make sense to help kill two birds with one stone - her cousins are future Russian empress and queen of Prussia. Plus, since OTL, Auguste and her sisters were close to the younger daughters of Maria Theresia (specifically Antoinette - who would receive Auguste and Maximilian, but refuse to extend the same courtesy to his brother, the Comte Palatine de Deux-Ponts (Zweibrucken)), I figure Auguste's as close to a domestic match as you could probably get. Plus, she's well-connected, with cousins married to the Crown Princes of Prussia and Russia, and her sisters are wed one after the other to the queen of England's brother.

It looks like Karoline is going to wind up as Max's bride then.

 

[JonasResende]

This discussion on Karoline's got me wondering though: George III famously declared "I will not be be-Wolfenbutteled" when he heard that his grandpa, George II, was trying to arrange a marriage with Brunswick for him (the bride was the OTL margravine of Bayreuth IIRC). So, instead, George II had to make do with Auguste for the duke of Brunswick and George III was left to shift for himself with regards a bride. (Although George III was also fussy. He had a list of criteria that the bride should meet, and Charlotte of Mecklenburg was the only princess in Germany who met all the requirements).

He [George II] considered sending Auguste to Brunswick a waste - it was basically only done IIRC since Brunswick expected an English marriage. So, what if George II decides to Hell with it and marries his grandson to Sophie Karoline of Brunswick anyway. Where does Auguste wind up? She's too old for Prussia, the Netherlands, Hesse (any of them) or Denmark. I can't see George II agreeing to a double match, and if George III doesn't like his Brunswick wife, I don't see him agreeing to punishing his sister with a second Brunswick match.

 

[isabella]

Isabella gives birth to a son in 1763, instead of miscarrying the pregnancy in January of that year (as OTL). He also has a son by his second, Portuguese infanta wife (Maria Benedita) in 1775. As to no Russian alliance, Pyotr III survives his coup (and Ekaterina ends up in a convent), and remarries to the OTL first wife of Friedrich Wilhelm II (Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick). Russia continues on a pro-Prussian course, although Paul I's first wife (Wilhelmine of Hesse-Darmstadt) also survives here, which makes Auguste make sense to help kill two birds with one stone - her cousins are future Russian empress and queen of Prussia. Plus, since OTL, Auguste and her sisters were close to the younger daughters of Maria Theresia (specifically Antoinette - who would receive Auguste and Maximilian, but refuse to extend the same courtesy to his brother, the Comte Palatine de Deux-Ponts (Zweibrucken)), I figure Auguste's as close to a domestic match as you could probably get. Plus, she's well-connected, with cousins married to the Crown Princes of Prussia and Russia, and her sisters are wed one after the other to the queen of England's brother.

It looks like Karoline is going to wind up as Max's bride then.

Thanks. Yes at this point Karoline for Max looks likely...
(I think Antoinette’s refute to receive Max’s older brother had much to do with her mother’s opinion of him and with the failed romance between him and Amalia)

 

[JonasResende]

(I think Antoinette’s refute to receive Max’s older brother had much to do with her mother’s opinion of him and with the failed romance between him and Amalia)

I'm not aware that she had any other reason to dislike him. Antoinette could be rather vindictive at times - her snobbery towards Zweibrucken (for instance) was occasioned by her mother's dislike of him. MT's dislike of Karl was for no other reason than he wasn't a politically useful match AFAIK. Antoinette's dislike of Zweibrucken FWIG is that he married someone else after her sister. IDK if she expected him to take a vow of chastity or what.

 

[isabella]

I'm not aware that she had any other reason to dislike him. Antoinette could be rather vindictive at times - her snobbery towards Zweibrucken (for instance) was occasioned by her mother's dislike of him. MT's dislike of Karl was for no other reason than he wasn't a politically useful match AFAIK. Antoinette's dislike of Zweibrucken FWIG is that he married someone else after her sister. IDK if she expected him to take a vow of chastity or what.

Well Antoniette herself had not reason for that dislike... but I will not be surprised if her mother talked so badly about him after his romance with Amalia (as an upstart with little land and little money who either thinked to be good enough for an Archduchess or who tried to make Amalia fall in love with him because he knew he would not be able to have her hand in any other way and so tried to compromise her for forcing her family to have her marry beneath her rank after a scandal) Antoniette thinked the worst about that prince... Joseph likely followed his mother line of thinking who Amalia would be wasted if married to Zweibrucken (and was totally favorable instead to have her married to his former brother-in-law)... Cristina was the only daughter of Maria Theresa able to marry the man she wanted (and was a bad match from a political point of view) and for that she was excluded if not hated by her other sisters (at least Amalia hated her and maybe Carolina).

Remember who Maria Theresa’s opinion on people had a lot of power for Antoniette, truly too much if you consider who the Cardinal of Rohan was snubbed by her because the Empress do not approved him (and if you think to what damage had caused that bad opinion)

 

[JonasResende]

Cristina was the only daughter of Maria Theresa able to marry the man she wanted (and was a bad match from a political point of view) and for that she was excluded if not hated by her other sisters (at least Amalia hated her and maybe Carolina).

Christine a.k.a. Mimi was the "spoiled brat" and the "mama's darling" of the family. Her sisters (as a whole - I haven't read that any of them liked her. Amalie hated her because of being allowed to marry for love rather than politics. Karoline and Antoinette hated her because she was the family snitch. Elisabeth hated her because Christine got to do what she liked (they were the sort of "big pair" of Maria Theresia's girls FWIG), and Lieschen generally got punished for it. Although, with Lieschen being the most beautiful of the empress' daughters, such a punishment was never long lasting or harsh. Joseph disliked Mimi for the fact that she'd brought him "a useless brother-in-law", Leopold hated how Mimi used to lord it over the other kids that she was the favourite. I've never read that Ferdinand disliked her, but it's not impossible. And Max wasn't a fan because the duchy of Teschen was supposed to have gone to him, and it was parceled away to endow Mimi's penniless husband.

Even Louis XVI's mother disliked Mimi (IIRC, Prince Xavier of Saxony and the Dowager Electress did too), for the fact that there was some or other irregularity in Mimi-Albrecht's coat of arms (the Wettin arms were in the quarters usually reserved for the wife or something, and Christine insisted on her precedence as an Austrian archduchess rather than simply accepting her position as a mere "duchess of Saxony"). Can't remember Xavier and his sister-in-law's reasons, but there was some bad blood there too. If I were to guess, I'd guess they didn't like Mimi's whole "I''m better than you" attitude.

Remember who Maria Theresa’s opinion on people had a lot of power for Antoniette, truly too much if you consider who the Cardinal of Rohan was snubbed by her because the Empress do not approved him (and if you think to what damage had caused that bad opinion)

TBF, it wasn't as though the Cardinal was entirely innocent in this case. His criticism from Maria Theresia stemmed from the fact that he was debauched etc (which he was), and Antoinette was after a much higher moral tone at Versailles (for instance, she took the upbringing of the king's pages in hand, and made sure that they were brought up better than what they had been. She chastened them when they behaved poorly, which was more than even the king's confessor had ever done.) But because of her higher morality, at Versailles, they called her cold and a prude.

 

[isabella]

Christine a.k.a. Mimi was the "spoiled brat" and the "mama's darling" of the family. Her sisters (as a whole - I haven't read that any of them liked her. Amalie hated her because of being allowed to marry for love rather than politics. Karoline and Antoinette hated her because she was the family snitch. Elisabeth hated her because Christine got to do what she liked (they were the sort of "big pair" of Maria Theresia's girls FWIG), and Lieschen generally got punished for it. Although, with Lieschen being the most beautiful of the empress' daughters, such a punishment was never long lasting or harsh. Joseph disliked Mimi for the fact that she'd brought him "a useless brother-in-law", Leopold hated how Mimi used to lord it over the other kids that she was the favourite. I've never read that Ferdinand disliked her, but it's not impossible. And Max wasn't a fan because the duchy of Teschen was supposed to have gone to him, and it was parceled away to endow Mimi's penniless husband.

Even Louis XVI's mother disliked Mimi (IIRC, Prince Xavier of Saxony and the Dowager Electress did too), for the fact that there was some or other irregularity in Mimi-Albrecht's coat of arms (the Wettin arms were in the quarters usually reserved for the wife or something, and Christine insisted on her precedence as an Austrian archduchess rather than simply accepting her position as a mere "duchess of Saxony"). Can't remember Xavier and his sister-in-law's reasons, but there was some bad blood there too. If I were to guess, I'd guess they didn't like Mimi's whole "I''m better than you" attitude.



TBF, it wasn't as though the Cardinal was entirely innocent in this case. His criticism from Maria Theresia stemmed from the fact that he was debauched etc (which he was), and Antoinette was after a much higher moral tone at Versailles (for instance, she took the upbringing of the king's pages in hand, and made sure that they were brought up better than what they had been. She chastened them when they behaved poorly, which was more than even the king's confessor had ever done.) But because of her higher morality, at Versailles, they called her cold and a prude.

Well the kind of moral tone who Antoinette sought was not appreciated at Versailles and added to her low tolerance for etiquette and her inability to understand the ritual of Versailles was one of the seeds of her ruin... Sure the poor girl was understandable but still she was not good at her job... Obviously the blame is much more for her mother than for her but still Antonia was not adequately prepared for the role and the court to which she was destined...

Cristina was spoiled too much point... I will surprised if Ferdinand liked her...
and in any case with Max in the church and Christine childless Leopold was quick to establish his will about Teschen and Christine and Albert complied...
But I will not be sure about Teschen ever be destined to Max as I think he was destined to the Church... Teschen was instead likely destined to Ferdinand before Charles’s death created an exchange of brides and lands and given to Christine five years later