Alternate warships of nations

Hence why I said an “extreme” comparison.

Still, we have examples in the Japanese battleships, who nearly doubled their output, and the Italian rebuilds, which increased by 2.5 times the installed power while also reducing the size of the machinery spaces by going to a two-shaft arrangement and using the remaining space for a new TDS.
They were also lengthened which improves characteristics for speed.
Italian style rebuilds would basically what'd be considering for all the old BCs if I had the money and was told you HAVE to rebuild this thing. Wasteful as hell? Yes, but a pretty good end result. If you were willing to live with shit arcs you could keep the en echelon turrets on Invincible and mount secondaries on the deckspace forward. Consider the Brits put the forward secondaries on the G3s horrendously close to the forward arcs of the midships turrets. Wouldn't want to be spending all that money on a glorified pre dreadnought.
 
Hence why I said an “extreme” comparison
Fair enough.

Still, we have examples in the Japanese battleships, who nearly doubled their output, and the Italian rebuilds, which increased by 2.5 times the installed power while also reducing the size of the machinery spaces by going to a two-shaft arrangement and using the remaining space for a new TDS
I can’t find the machinery weights of the Kongos at the moment but the Nagatos went from 80,000 shp to 82,000 shp while dropping from 3500 ton machinery to 3000 tons. So the went from 22.9 shp/ton to 27.3 shp/ ton. Not incredibly impressive on the face of it. Of course this doesn’t compare space requirements or deal with the ships that actually did double their power.
 
Fair enough.


I can’t find the machinery weights of the Kongos at the moment but the Nagatos went from 80,000 shp to 82,000 shp while dropping from 3500 ton machinery to 3000 tons. So the went from 22.9 shp/ton to 27.3 shp/ ton. Not incredibly impressive on the face of it. Of course this doesn’t compare space requirements or deal with the ships that actually did double their power.
Wasn't Nagato about 6,000 tons heavier overall though?
 
Fair enough.


I can’t find the machinery weights of the Kongos at the moment but the Nagatos went from 80,000 shp to 82,000 shp while dropping from 3500 ton machinery to 3000 tons. So the went from 22.9 shp/ton to 27.3 shp/ ton. Not incredibly impressive on the face of it. Of course this doesn’t compare space requirements or deal with the ships that actually did double their power.
The Nagatos were reboilered but retained their original turbines, which limited how much they could use the extra steam. My apologies, I should have specified Japan’s 14” battleships.
 
The Nagatos were reboilered but retained their original turbines, which limited how much they could use the extra steam. My apologies, I should have specified Japan’s 14” battleships.
I figured as much but couldn’t find machinery weights for the Kongo’s.
 
The Nagatos were reboilered but retained their original turbines, which limited how much they could use the extra steam. My apologies, I should have specified Japan’s 14” battleships.
As the original question was about a ship owned by a relatively minor navy reboilering is about all that could be afforded. We're talking about a navy similar to Turkey's or the three South American battleship navies. They don't have much money to throw away on an obsolete Battlecruiser.
 
As the original question was about a ship owned by a relatively minor navy reboilering is about all that could be afforded. We're talking about a navy similar to Turkey's or the three South American battleship navies. They don't have much money to throw away on an obsolete Battlecruiser.
The guy who posted the scenario literally said money is no object.
 
A continuation.

(Sorry for more than 3 images mods)

Capital Ships of the Marine Royale:
Marine Royale is the name of the French Royal Navy, however this text is not on the sail Ships of the Line of that distinguished service of the Ancien Regime. Nor is it on the Imperial Navy of the Bonapartes or on the Republic's Marine Nationale, despite the French Naval service never losing the nickname of "la Royale" trough it's long history. This text is on the Battleships, Battlecruisers and Aircraft Carriers of the "Marine Royale" of the Actionist French State.
The First World War had ended in an Allied victory and an Entente defeat. For Britain this did not mean much at the moment. The war had ended with Britain in control of all Allied colonial possessions and with British troops outside Rome. Northwestern India being occupied by Russian forces and the losses suffered so far were the only current negative effects. This meant that Britain got off light. Indeed it could pretend to be the victor, with only Oman, Cyprus and Egypt (other than Suez) being lost and much of the German and half of the Italian colonial empire gained as well as Belgian Katanga. But of course, this did not prevent the Springtime Revolution, caused by the great loss of life in the war and continued social inequalities which would lead to the formation of the Union of Britannic Syndicalist Commonwealths. For France however things were far worse. 1916 had seen French troops in Lorraine be encircled and Paris be occupied by Germans despite France occupying Genoa and Milan in the Italian Front. Oh Paris would soon be retaken and the Lorraine pocket relieved, but the Allies would also push the Entente back in Italy. Worse, with Hungary having been defeated and signing separate peace with the Allies Russian and Balkan troops could be sent to the Italian and Flemish Fronts. Later in 1917 while British and ANZAC troops were marching north from the tip of Italy French army as well as BEF and the Canadians could no longer hang on as Russo-German and Russo-Italian troops broke trough Entente lines. Allied troops were on the Atlantic and the Spanish border by the end of the year. France could resist no more as remnants of the army started mutinied. Recognizing the situation Marshal Joffre and Generals Foch and Petain convinced President Poincaré, and Prime Minister Clemenceau to suspend the constitution and agree to ceasefire with the Allies. After peace was finally signed France was hit hard, losing Corsica, Nice, French Guiana and a number of African colonies along with eastern parts of France being occupied until the end of 1918. Furthermore French military was heavily limited with only 8 pre-dreadnoughts (of Liberte and Danton classes) being allowed as capital ships. The Normandie class battleships were interned in Heligoland before being scuttled by their crews while the Lyon class battleships had been cancelled during the war. As for the Courbet and Bretagne class dreadnoughts, they were gained as prizes of war by Germany, Russia and Italy. A Presidential 4th Republic was established with Clemenceau being elected it's first president.
Vergniaud-ELD.jpg
Danton class battleship Vergniaud (from wikipedia)​
Pre-dreadnoughts:​
All the ships had served in the First World War, mostly in the Mediterrenean against the Italians.​
When Charles Maurras was elected president in 1924 the Marine Nationale possessed 8 pre-dreadnought battleships. Democratié, Justice, Verité, Concordet, Diderot, Mirabeau, Voltaire and Vergniaud. All were still in service when the French State was declared in 1926 and Maurras became the Regent. Of these Democratié, Justice, Verité, Concordet and Mirabeau were scrapped in the early 30s. Diderot was retired early and scrapped during the Second World War. Voltaire and Vergniaud remained in service and saw limited duty in the Spanish Civil War and WW2. With Verginaud firing the first shots of the war, bombing the Italian coast. Verginaud was sunk in shallow water by Regia Aeronautica and Imperial Russian Air Force, thought later a fire would permanently disable the ship. Voltaire would hit a mine and sink in 1944, with French Mediterrenean coast being fully occupied by the Allies not much later.​
Marine Royale Battlecruiser France (Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts game, I made the ship)​
France class battlecruisers were the first modern capital ships of the French Navy. The nameship France was laid down in 1929 and completed in 1933, her sisters were Patrie and Soleil-Royale. The ships were armed with 8 330mm guns, in two quad turrets all forward. With a secondary armament of 6 twin 100mm guns. They were protected by a belt of 200mm and a deck of 115mm. They displaced at roughly 22000 tons. Their designed/trial speed was 35 knots, thought for most of their service they could do 32 knots at most. These ships formed the core of the Force de Raid stationed in Brest. Soleil-Royale was performing as a raider in the South Atlantic early in the war where she was sunk by the German battlecruiser SMS Togoland in the Battle off the Cape. Patrie was the most successful of the major French raiders. She was temporarily moved to the Baltic but was withdrawn after some unsuccessful skirmishes with German and Russian Fleets. Patrie was sunk by Luftstreitkräfte bombers in 1944. France was attacked by Republican bombers in the Spanish Civil War. She was frequently damaged during the war by German submarine and aerial assets, as well as by Russian battlecruisers in the Battle of the Sea of Norway. Towards the end of the war France was used as a gun battery against the German and Russian advance. She was gained as a war prize by the UBSC and sunk in weapon tests in 1947.​
Strasbourg-1.jpg
Marine Royale battleship Verdun (OTL image of Strasbourg, from Wikipedia)​
Dunkerque class battleships had the same main armament as the Frances, a stronger secondary battery, slightly better protection and they displaced far more. They were able to make 30 knots. Their smaller size, less armour and focus on high speed leads to some people referring to them as battlecruisers. The ships were laid down in 1935 and completed shortly before the start of the 2nd World War. They supported the French invasion of Corsica and Sardegna and later Sicily. They participated in the sinking of the old Italian battleship RN Dante Alighieri and German battlecruiser SMS Hindenburg. as well as sinking the German carrier SMS Forseti. Dunkerque was sunk in the Battle of the Thyrennian Sea in 1943 by combined Italian, Ottoman and Russian naval forces. Her sister Verdun was sunk as a blockship in 1944, soon after UBSC troop landings in Europe/France.​
Richelieu-2.jpg
Marine Royale battleship Richelieu (from Wikipedia)​
Richelieu class were fast battleships built for Actionist France's Marine Royale shortly before WW2. The ships were the largest and most powerful warships built for the Marine Royale. The Richelieus were based on the preceding Dunkerque class, but scaled up to accommodate more powerful 380 mm guns and armor to protect them from guns of the same caliber. They were able to make 32 knots. Richelieu gained infamy by sinking the battlecruiser SMS Kamerun in the battle of Heligoland Bight. Thought she was soon afterward heavily damaged via German aircraft and multiple battleships and battlecruisers of the High Seas Fleet and scuttled. Her sistership Jean Bart was completed later and did not see much action, spending much of the war in Dakar. She was sunk mid-Atlantic by Russian carriers and fast battleships in 1944.​
A planned successor for the Richelieu class was the Alsace class, which would have added one more main gun turret on the Richelieus. A ship was laid down in late 1938 but was cancelled and scrapped as WW2 started next year.​
Italian Italia class fast battleship RN Africa was captured while under construction and renamed Duc de Guise. She would be scuttled in 1943 as Allied armies were liberating Italy. She was later raised and scrapped.​
Joffre.svg
First ship of the Joffre class aircraft carrier was laid down in 1936. She was near completed but would never enter service. She was gained as a prize of war by the Germans and sunk as target in 1947. Her sister ship Foch was cancelled and scrapped in 1940.​
Last two ships of the Algerie class heavy cruisers Madagascar and Congo were to be converted into light aircraft carriers to be named Roques and Guynemer. Four more ships of the same light carrier design were laid down as purpose built carriers, to be named Nungesser, Deullin, Pégoud and Blériot. None were completed during the war and all but Congo/Guynemer were scrapped in 1945, 1946 or 1947. The Congo/Guynemer was eventually completed as an AA cruiser for the Regia Marina.​
Various retcons will/may happen and not necessarily be reflected in the posts or this index
Maps:
Partition of Laos
WW1 and WW2
WW1 and WW2, earlier version with small write up
WW2 ATL-1-1
WW2 ATL-1-2
WW2 ATL-2
WW2 ATL-3
WW1 ATL-1
International Concord
Political/Military Alliances
Political/Military Alliances 1975
Economic Blocs
Human Development Index
Forms of Government (Darfur retconned to being a Monarchy)
(Older map) Nuclear Powers, with nuclear umbrellas
Democracy Index
Most Popular Sports by Nation
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Elections
USA Elections
USSA/ASF Elections
Territorial Evolution of Malaysia(-Pacifica) (with CoA sketches and notes)
3rd Carrier Division World Tour
British Referendums
Timezones

Flags:
3 Malaysian blue ensigns (Ones with supporters canon)
Ensign of the Britannic Revolutionary Navy
Updated East South Sudan, Socialist Australia, Socialist New Zealand (this South Sudan retconned, the other one is still canon)
Malaysian and Pacifican Blue Ensigns
South Sudanese Flags
Latest Flags of USSA and ASF
Flag of the International Concord
Rio de la Platan and Sudamerican Flags
Second Flag of Pacific Federation
PSA Flags (Pacific Federation Flag retconned)
Algerian Flag (the bottom one)
Flag of Ghana (the bottom one)
Flag of Chinese Social Republic
Flags of Sudan
Flag of the Republic of Nyasaland
Flag of Sri Lanka
Flag of Chad
Flags of the Baltic Kingdom
Flags of the Britannic Union and subdivisions
Flag of the United States Liberal Party

Non-Map and Non-Flag Graphics:
Britannic Union Air Force Roundel
West French, Ottoman and Russian Roundels
Istanbul Pact Roundels
South Africa, Malaysia(-Pacifica), New England Roundels
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Roundels
Ghana Roundel
Indian and Sri Lankan Roundels
Warspite, under Britannic command, bombing the French
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Pacifica (shark outdated)
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Malaysia-Pacifica (1992-2008)
Malaysian CoAs, a blue ensign for Malaysia

Text:
Commonwealth Roundels
List of the Leaders of Britannic Union (political parties and leaders mentioned in note 7 can be disregarded)
List of the Presidents of USSA/ASF (partially retconned check map for updated version)
List of the Presidents of USA
List of the Presidents of PSA/Pacific Federation/California
List of the Prime Ministers of the UK
Rulers of the Romanov Realms
Political Parties of the Russian Empire
List of Sovereign States
List of Dreadnought Battleships, Fast Battleships and Battlecruisers
List of Aircraft Carriers
List of Ballistic Missile Submarines
Primary Subdivisions of UBSC at its height (1972-1976)
Basic organization of the Union of Arab States
IC Great Powers
Notes and Ideas
Ideas and Thoughts on Britain
Socialist Symbols ITTL
Basic Historical Overview of Iran
Broad history of Balkan states
Monarchies and the titles of their rulers
History Exam: Japan from WW2 to 1970
Misconception of USSA Dictatorship
Treaty of Chicago, 1970 (Chicago could be District of Lincoln instead of Jefferson)
Indian Battleships
Some writing on parliaments of UK in exile, Malaysia-Pacifica, Restored UK and UAS
Ottoman/Turkish Navy ships trough the years (wip)

Continuing.
Text in italics taken from wikipedia, as are all images.

Ottoman Battleships:
Ottoman Navy, not counting earlier wooden ships of the line or ironclads, has operated 4 battleships throughout its history despite having ordered 8 at different times.
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The Pre-dreadnought Abdülkadir was to be the first Pre-dreadnought Battleship of the Ottoman Navy, which was laid down domestically. The ship was the first capital ship to be laid down by the Ottomans in more than a decade. She was to have a main armament of four 28-centimeter (11 in) guns, with an armored belt that was 230 mm (9.1 in) thick. Work proceeded on the ship very slowly, primarily the result of a lack of funds; after two years, only the frames for the hull had been erected, and by the time work stopped in 1906, the hull had been only partially plated. During the long construction period, the supports for the keel shifted, which distorted the structure and prevented completion. The unfinished ship was ultimately broken up for scrap in 1909.
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The Ottoman battleships Barbaros Hayreddin and Turgut Reis were originally named SMS Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm and SMS Weissenburg, respectively. They were members of the German Brandenburg class, the first class of ocean-going battleships built for the German navy. Two other ships of the class were constructed: Brandenburg and Wörth. Of the four, Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm and Weissenburg were more advanced in that their armor was composed of higher-quality steel. Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm and Weissenburg were sold to the Ottoman Navy in 1910 and renamed Barbaros Hayreddin and Turgut Reis, respectively. The two battleships saw very little service in the Italo-Turkish War and were mostly used to defend the Dardanelles from any Italian naval attacks. Barbaros Hayreddin and Turgut Reis saw heavy service during the Balkan Wars however, failing in two attempts to break the Greek naval blockade of the Dardanelles in December 1912 and January 1913, and providing artillery support to Ottoman ground forces in Thrace. With the Ottoman Empire neutral in the First World War neither ship saw action in that war and were replaced as "first line" warships of the Navy by the two dreadnoughts acquired in 1914. However both ships survived into the Ottoman entrance into the Second World War. They were used in coastal gunfire support in the Mediterrenean. Barbaros Hayreddin was sunk in 15th of May 1942 as the ships were supporting the Ottoman Army in Southern Tunisia against the French Army of Africa. The squadron was attacked by land based French aircraft based in occupied Italy. Both battleships were hit by bombs and the squadron made to return to Turkish ports but Barbaros Hayreddin was also torpedoed by a French submarine, leading the vessel to sink. Some destroyers stuck around to help rescue survivors with most of the ships of the squadron continuing to retreat. Turgut Reis was repaired by November of 1942, enabling the ship to help support the invasion of the Balaeric Islands in December. Where Franco-Spanish aircraft as well as French and Spanish submarines attacked the battleship and did great damage. However the ship was able to be beached before it sank. The invasion was a success and the Turgut Reis remained on Menorca until the end of the war. After which she was patched up, and returned to the Ottoman Empire to be scrapped.
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(please ignore the White ensign on the aft superstructure)
Following the purchase of SMS Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm and SMS Weissenburg from Germany, the Ottoman Navy drew up plans for a new class of battleships called the Reşadiye class. The design for the ships was based on the British King George V-class battleships, although it incorporated several significant improvements. They carried the same 13.5-inch (343 mm) main battery guns as the British ships, but their secondary battery consisted of 6-inch (152 mm) guns, compared to the British vessels' 4-inch (102 mm) pieces. The first ship, Reşadiye, was laid down in 1911 and completed in August 1914. Being able to be commissioned into the Ottoman Navy. The second ship, Fatih Sultan Mehmed, had only been ordered in April 1914 and little work had been done by the start of the war, so she was quickly broken up for scrap. The ships were also largely paid by public donations. Reşadiye was the flagship Ottoman Navy until it was scrapped in 1973. A notable event in her history was her participating in the sinking of the French battleship Dunkerque in the Battle of the Thyrennian Sea in 1943, alongside Russian and Italian Navies. She was the last battleship in active service, beating the Italian fast battleship Vittorio Emmanual by 3 years, however various others had served into the early 60s and a number were preserved as museums unlike the Reşadiye or Vittorio Emmanual.
Sultan_Osman_I_-_Brassey%27s_Naval_Annual_1914_unnumbered%2C_after_p_64.jpg

She was originally intended for the Brazilian Navy as Rio de Janeiro, and was laid down on 14 September 1911 by Armstrong Whitworth in Newcastle upon Tyne. After more than a year of construction her hull was launched on 22 January 1913. Because of an economic crisis in Brazil, the uncompleted battleship was sold to the Ottoman Navy on 28 December 1913. She was then renamed Sultân Osmân-ı Evvel. Her sea trials were completed the next August. She was commissioned alongside Reşadiye. She was armed with 14 12" guns and a secondary battery of 6" guns. Sultan Osman-I Evvel participated in the sinking of the French battleship Dunkerque in the Battle of the Thyrennian Sea in 1943. The battleship was retired and scrapped in 1954.
H_M_S_Revenge_as_launched.jpg

Builders photo of HMS Revenge.
Ottoman Navy was not content with just two dreadnoughts. With the end of WW1 in 1918 Britain was once more available for foreign orders. While ordering the new formidable Admiral class battlecruiser or Queen Elizabeth class battleship was considered in the end it was decided to go for a derivative of the the cheaper Royal Sovereign/Revenge class battleship. Two were ordered and laid down in June 1919, Yavuz Sultan Selim and Kanuni Sultan Süleyman. In the end neither ship was ever completed however as the British Revolution lead to the ships being cancelled and scrapped in 1921.

Various retcons will/may happen and not necessarily be reflected in the posts or this index
Maps:
Partition of Laos
WW1 and WW2
WW1 and WW2, earlier version with small write up
WW2 ATL-1-1
WW2 ATL-1-2
WW2 ATL-2
WW2 ATL-3
WW1 ATL-1
International Concord
Political/Military Alliances
Political/Military Alliances 1975
Economic Blocs
Human Development Index
Forms of Government (Darfur retconned to being a Monarchy)
(Older map) Nuclear Powers, with nuclear umbrellas
Democracy Index
Most Popular Sports by Nation
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Elections
USA Elections
USSA/ASF Elections
Territorial Evolution of Malaysia(-Pacifica) (with CoA sketches and notes)
3rd Carrier Division World Tour
British Referendums
Timezones

Flags:
3 Malaysian blue ensigns (Ones with supporters canon)
Ensign of the Britannic Revolutionary Navy
Updated East South Sudan, Socialist Australia, Socialist New Zealand (this South Sudan retconned, the other one is still canon)
Malaysian and Pacifican Blue Ensigns
South Sudanese Flags
Latest Flags of USSA and ASF
Flag of the International Concord
Rio de la Platan and Sudamerican Flags
Second Flag of Pacific Federation
PSA Flags (Pacific Federation Flag retconned)
Algerian Flag (the bottom one)
Flag of Ghana (the bottom one)
Flag of Chinese Social Republic
Flags of Sudan
Flag of the Republic of Nyasaland
Flag of Sri Lanka
Flag of Chad
Flags of the Baltic Kingdom
Flags of the Britannic Union and subdivisions
Flag of the United States Liberal Party

Non-Map and Non-Flag Graphics:
Britannic Union Air Force Roundel
West French, Ottoman and Russian Roundels
Istanbul Pact Roundels
South Africa, Malaysia(-Pacifica), New England Roundels
PSA/Pacific Federation/California Roundels
Ghana Roundel
Indian and Sri Lankan Roundels
Warspite, under Britannic command, bombing the French
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Pacifica (shark outdated)
Coat of Arms of the Dominion of Malaysia-Pacifica (1992-2008)
Malaysian CoAs, a blue ensign for Malaysia

Text:
Commonwealth Roundels
List of the Leaders of Britannic Union (political parties and leaders mentioned in note 7 can be disregarded)
List of the Presidents of USSA/ASF (partially retconned check map for updated version)
List of the Presidents of USA
List of the Presidents of PSA/Pacific Federation/California
List of the Prime Ministers of the UK
Rulers of the Romanov Realms
Political Parties of the Russian Empire
List of Sovereign States
List of Dreadnought Battleships, Fast Battleships and Battlecruisers
List of Aircraft Carriers
List of Ballistic Missile Submarines
Primary Subdivisions of UBSC at its height (1972-1976)
Basic organization of the Union of Arab States
IC Great Powers
Notes and Ideas
Ideas and Thoughts on Britain
Socialist Symbols ITTL
Basic Historical Overview of Iran
Broad history of Balkan states
Monarchies and the titles of their rulers
History Exam: Japan from WW2 to 1970
Misconception of USSA Dictatorship
Treaty of Chicago, 1970 (Chicago could be District of Lincoln instead of Jefferson)
Indian Battleships
Marine Royale Capital Ships
Some writing on parliaments of UK in exile, Malaysia-Pacifica, Restored UK and UAS
Ottoman/Turkish Navy ships trough the years
 
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A littoral warfare vessel ( 1890 -1914) what would it look like ?
Small enough steamship to protect coastal maritime traffic or prey on them
Hold its own against enemy gunboats
Fast enough to run away from heavy coastal battleships
Able to operate in big rivers and shallow waters


any examples of it in OTL
 
A littoral warfare vessel ( 1890 -1914) what would it look like ?
Small enough steamship to protect coastal maritime traffic or prey on them
Hold its own against enemy gunboats
Fast enough to run away from heavy coastal battleships
Able to operate in big rivers and shallow waters


any examples of it in OTL
27 knotters class destroyers
 
That, along with various gunboats and coastal battleships, are what constituted the coastal forces you were asking about.
Can we have a dedicated class of craft though
something similar to what the danish used against English in the Napoleonic wars but steam powered and carrying a heavier punch
Maybe we can sacrifice speed , I think that’s reasonable esp if it fights mostly in littorals
 
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