Alternate warships of nations

I had always heard Soviet submarines were noisier than their counterparts in western navies. Annoyingly wherever I saw this likely true but of information stated it offered no explanation as to why this was aside from the USSR was terrible and the US of eagles rules and has the best stuff.

Recently however I was watching a sub brief video (an excellent YouTube channel) and he said the Soviets doubled up most things in their subs. Leading to twice the noise and adding great difficulty in isolating components to silence.

This seems logical to me, but is there anyone else who has a similar theory to explain things? Without making it seem that the USSR was hopeless and could not hope to compete with the might and brains of the US because they were commie pigs? I know the Soviets often were playing catch up to the west, but this often seems over blown and doesn't actually explain why.
Generally it was just they were playing catch up, Russia had been lagging in naval architecture under the Tsars, and the Revolution and WWII did not help at all with this. The USSR never really invested enough resources to catch up to Western navies, who placed a higher priority on seapower due to inherent geographically matters. Basically they started behind and their opponents invested enough resources to keep staying ahead

There were also different doctrinal priorities that did not help them, in general the USSR wanted higher top speeds than Western navies, so had to cram more horsepower in
 
1950

Nassau. The crew of the Black Swan class sloop HMS John Bee have a really bad port visit and despite what they say the next day it will be 5 years before most of them go home after failing to adequately explain how the King's Head burned down.

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Izumo class battleship

Izumo (Laid down April 1932, Launched January 1935, Commissioned August 1936), named for the province, the WOWS battleship, and the current destroyer Izumo
Tosa (Laid down March 1933, launched July 1936, Commissioned November 1937), named for the never completed battleship and was the home province of the Chosakabe clan in Shogun 2.

Armament: 9 410mm guns in ABQ turret arrangement all forward of the superstructure.
Displacement: 35,000 tons (Actually 42,000 tons)
Speed 29 knots.

While the other naval powers weren't interested in building new battleships at the 1930 London Naval Treaty, the Japanese insisted on replacing the older battleships, even if they couldn't really afford it. As a compromise, the Royal Navy, USN, and the IJN would be allowed to construct some replacement battleships in a 3-3-2 ratio. While this ultimately benefited Japan, this compromise strengthened the arguments of the anti-treaty Fleet Faction that would result in Japan leaving the treaty system in 1936.

The Izumo class had a long and complicated design history. The first design that the Naval General Staff approved for further detailed design was Hiraga's proposed battleship X. This design was capable of 26 knots, had 14-inch belt armor, had 14cm casemate guns, and 10 410mm guns in two twins and two triple mounts.

designX.jpg


The other design was submitted by Fujimoto who was Hiraga's rival. This design was had 9 410mm guns in three triple turrets, was also capable of 26 knots, and had 155 secondaries, but they were placed outside the main armored belt of the ship.

Fujimotobattleship.png


In the end, both designs were rejected for several reasons including but not limited too
A) placement of the secondary batteries
B) The use of triple and twin main battery turrets, complicating the manufacturing of the turrets
C) Insufficient speed compared to what the NGS thought the USN would build. Ideally, they wanted 29-30 knots
D) Poor placement of the main battery, since the NGS favored an all forward arrangement, similar to what Hiraga proposed in 1929.

Several new designs were submitted and refined with the biggest differences being in the main battery arrangement. Designs included a Q superfiring over deck level A and B turrets, Q facing forward or aft, and one design with B superfiring over A with Q superfiring over B, similar to the later Dido Class. secondary armament, speed, and armor all varied too. What eventually emerged was a shop with 9 410mm guns with Q turret rear-facing and B superfiring over A turret, capable of 29 knots, and a 14-inch armored belt. To help keep displacement within 35,000 tons secondaries were four twin 127mm dual-purpose guns on either side of the superstructure and a triple 155 turret aft of the superstructure. The problem was that this would never make the 35,000-ton limit but the NGS insisted that the ship built anyways with both joining the fleet by 1937 with the Izumo becoming the flagship of the Combined Fleet. Foreign observers quickly questioning the actual displacement of the vessel.


izumo.png


As the newest IJN battleship, Izumo was present for the Coronation review in 1937 representing Japan along with the cruiser Ashigara. The only other pre-war duty she saw was supporting operations off of the Chinese coast.

Like many IJN battleships, Izumo saw little action during the first few months of the war beyond the occasional bombardment and support of other forces. Her first major action occurred in November during the second night of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. With the loss of two battleships on the night 13th due to a combined USN cruiser battle force, the IJN decided to reassert control of the seas at night in the waters around Guadalcanal. Izumo was detached alongside her sistership to do this task. In the following battle of Tulagi Izumo and Tosa ambushed and sank the battleship USS South Dakota and the heavy cruiser Portland and forced the battleship USS Washington to withdraw after superficial damage. But, the following morning both were attacked and damaged by vengeful aircraft from the carrier USS Enterprise and also from Henderson field. The damage required several months in Japan for both battleships to be repaired. During this refit, both received radar, more AA guns, while Izumo herself received a more extensive refit to enable her to continue to serve as a flagship. Later they both headed south to join IJN in Borneo where Admiral Kurita would fly his flag from the Izumo.

The next major action that they participated in was the battle of Leyte Gulf where they played a critical role in especially after the loss of the super battleship Mushashi. During the battle off Samar Center force was able to ambush Rear Admiral Bogan's task force 38.2. How this ambush happened has long been up for debate with most of the blame being laid at Bogan's feet, but his side of the story was lost when he and his staff were lost with the USS Intrepid. Yamato, Izumo, and Tosa quickly dealt with the 2 escorting battleships USS Alabama and USS Florida while the rest of the force sank the carriers and other escorts. Center Force continued to go further south when they ran into a battle force composed of 3 old battleships, 3 cruisers, and 8 destroyers heading north to intercept them. This was half of Admiral Oldendorf's bombardment force that had been detached the night before to cover the San Bernandino Straight. This force was also dispatched by the Japanese but inflicted serious damage on Center Force by sinking the Mutsu and 3 heavy cruisers. Also, during this attack, numerous aircraft had made attack runs on the Japanese force temporarily wounding Kurita. When he came too and witnessed the continued damage at the hands of Americans that his now heavily mauled force was suffering he ordered a retreat.
While this retreat is controversial he the air attacks and surface engagements had already inflicted significant damage to his forces. During the retreat the USN other task groups came into range and launched an attack the claimed the Tosa alongside the battleship Nagato. When the Center force sailed for battle it had 8 battleships, 14 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, and 23 destroyers. After the battle, it had been cut down to 3 battleships, the Yamato, Kongo, and Izumo, 5 heavy cruisers, 1 light cruisers, and 11 destroyers. While the Center Force had won a great tactical victory there was no way to stop or even slow the American juggernaut while Japanese industry could not replace the loss of so many ships and the navy could not replace the loss of so many highly trained sailors.

Transferred back to the Home Islands, Izumo would continue to avoid being sunk unlike most of the IJN's remaining large ships. She was surrendered in Tokyo Bay at the end of the war to the Allies where they conducted extensive research and trials of the ships. Ultimately she was sunk during a live-fire exercise by the Battleship USS Iowa, USS Kentucky, and the battlecruiser HMS Lion in 1948.

Notes:
A) I'll talk about the design in a bit more detail in a follow-up post.
B) For the second post in this series covering the Owari Class I had to go back and edit the name of a USN ship, my bad
C) This alternate ambush off of Samar is approaching ASB, but I have a soft spot for the IJN and RN.
D) What do you think of 40,000 plus ton ship being declared as a treaty compliant 35,000-ton battleship?
E) Any criticisms are welcomed.
F) I copied and pasted the shipbuilding to commissioning times because I'm lazy.
 
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Izumo class battleship
++Snip

Transferred back to the Home Islands, Izumo would continue to avoid being sunk unlike most of the IJN's remaining large ships. She was surrendered in Tokyo Bay at the end of the war to the Allies where they conducted extensive research and trials of the ships. Ultimately she was sunk during a live-fire exercise by the Battleship USS Iowa, USS Kentucky, and the battlecruiser HMS Lion in 1948.
++Snip
My only comment would be about the HMS Lion.

Battlecruisers were out of fashion by then, and I also seriously doubt the WWI vintage ship would still be in service in 1948. This ship is therefore a replacement ship named Lion.
 
My only comment would be about the HMS Lion.

Battlecruisers were out of fashion by then, and I also seriously doubt the WWI vintage ship would still be in service in 1948. This ship is therefore a replacement ship named Lion.

I think it is meant to be a new Battlecruiser HMS Lion, not the WW1 vintage one.

And Brits were going to call G3s battlecruisers. They could call a new class of fast battleship battlecruiser.
I think for a while British were using the term "fully armoured battlecruiser" rather than "fast battleship".
 
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1992

Following the retirement of the three Centaur class light carriers after the Gulf War the Royal Navy Commissions the first of three licence built Wasp Class variants HMS Furious. Glorious and Courageous follow in 1994 and 1995.

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1992

Following the retirement of the three Centaur class light carriers after the Gulf War the Royal Navy Commissions the first of three licence built Wasp Class variants HMS Furious. Glorious and Courageous follow in 1994 and 1995.

View attachment 660613
Well that would basically take care of the UK's Amphibious needs in just 3 hulls and thus enable the QEs to be more focused on the carrier role and not having to also deal with the requirements of also being HMS Ocean's replacement. Of course said ships probably have been fitted with gas turbines(like the entire Wasp class should have been from the very start)
 
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Well that would basically take care of the UK's Amphibious needs in just 3 hulls and thus enable the QEs to be more focused on the carrier role and not having to also deal with the requirements of also being HMS Ocean's replacement. Of course said ships probably have been fitted with gas turbines(like the entire Wasp class should have from the very start)


If I got it right the picture is of the Gas Turbine powered USS Makin Island.
 
I think it is meant to be a new Battlecruiser HMS Lion, not the WW1 vintage one.

And Brits were going to call G3s battlecruisers. They could call a new class of fast battleship battlecruiser.
I think for a while British were using the term "fully armoured battlecruiser" rather than "fast battleship".
In the early 20's that is correct, though after the mid 20's the name battlecruiser was removed and only used for ship already in existence, (HMS Hood, Renown, Repulse and Tiger) Ships from a later date, like the proposed G-3 would be commissioned in the late 20's at its earliest and reclassified as battleships like Dunkerque and Scharnhorst were in other nations. The only battlecruisers actually commissioned after the late 20's were not even called as such (USS Alaska was given the fictional classification of a large cruiser, where any other nation would have called it what it was: a battlecruiser) Some never completed designs of battlecruisers continued to be made, but none was commissioned though (Germany & USSR had some of these designs)
 
In the early 20's that is correct, though after the mid 20's the name battlecruiser was removed and only used for ship already in existence, (HMS Hood, Renown, Repulse and Tiger) Ships from a later date, like the proposed G-3 would be commissioned in the late 20's at its earliest and reclassified as battleships like Dunkerque and Scharnhorst were in other nations. The only battlecruisers actually commissioned after the late 20's were not even called as such (USS Alaska was given the fictional classification of a large cruiser, where any other nation would have called it what it was: a battlecruiser) Some never completed designs of battlecruisers continued to be made, but none was commissioned though (Germany & USSR had some of these designs)
I think it is meant to be a new Battlecruiser HMS Lion, not the WW1 vintage one.

And Brits were going to call G3s battlecruisers. They could call a new class of fast battleship battlecruiser.
I think for a while British were using the term "fully armoured battlecruiser" rather than "fast battleship".
You mean like the Admiralty planning documents for KGV referring to a armoured battlecruiser about half the time. Fully armoured battlecruiser about a quarter and battleship about a quarter.

HMS Vanguard was always called a fully armoured battlecruiser or a fast capital ship in Admiralty planning documents.

That said both commissioned were always called battleships in public announcements. I believe that was a political decision as battlecruiser raised certain connotations in the minds of the public.
 
That said both commissioned were always called battleships in public announcements. I believe that was a political decision as battlecruiser raised certain connotations in the minds of the public.
Whatever do you mean, the Splendid Cats were the terror of the seas.

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Honestly I think the Battlecruiser's reputation would have been far better if Queen Mary had survived since you can probably attribute the loss of the Invincible and Indefatigable to not having enough armor to withstand capital scale gunfire.
 
Honestly I think the Battlecruiser's reputation would have been far better if Queen Mary had survived since you can probably attribute the loss of the Invincible and Indefatigable to not having enough armor to withstand capital scale gunfire.
Especially as both Lion and Tiger survived potentially fatal hits on their turrets at Jutland.
 
Especially as both Lion and Tiger survived potentially fatal hits on their turrets at Jutland.
In one case due to good ammo handling practices and the other due to the heroics of the turret commander. And Queen Mary staying in one piece sans a turret disabled would have made a measurable impact on Jutland since she was known as the best shooting ship in the battlecruiser force. I suspect that at least one other German Battlecruiser probably wouldn't have made it home. Probably Seydlitz all things considered. Maybe a predeadnought as well since they got involved in a short shootout with the British Battlecruisers and any of them being crippled would have certainly doomed them.
 
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The unfortunate Howe

HMS Howe.jpg


Pictured above is the British battleship Howe, an Admiral class battle commissioned in 1885 and remaining in service until she was disposed of in 1910. She would be the final British battleship to bear the name, despite repeated efforts over the next sixty years to commission several ships of the name. And it is these ships which we will now examine briefly.

Howe 1916
The next ship to bear the name Howe was to be an Admiral class battlecruiser, a sistership to the Hood and Anson. The ship was laid down in 1916, the last ship bearing the name to reach even this stage until after the second world war. Work proceeded slowly due to the first world war then raging, a situation that was little helped by repeated revisions to the ships design made after the major fleet battles of Jutland and the Skagerrak. The ship was finally cancelled alongside the fourth member of the class in 1919.

Howe 1935
Following the cancellation of Howe in 1919 the Royal navy would again select the name for a King George the Fifth class battleship following the original renaming of the class (it had initially been planned to name the ships King Edward VIII, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, and Iron Duke) with the renewed plan being to name the four ships as Howe, Prince of Wales, Jellicoe, and Beatty. But this was soon amended with the next plan being to name the ships King George V, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, and Howe.

The four ships were to be ordered in late 1935, however Howe was delayed alongside the rest of the class until 1936, with Howe herself later cancelled in favour of the slightly modified Nelson and Collingwood which traded the 14 inch guns of the original design with 15 inch guns of an improved model. Some plans were made to order a sixth ship named Howe based on the original design in 1937, and then a suggestion was made to build a third ship of the Nelson subclass. But these plans were ultimately shelved in favour of moving onto the Lion design.

Howe 1939
While the RN laid down Vanguard and Vanquisher in 1937 plans were finalized for the Lion class to be laid down in 1938. It was planned to name the ships initially as Lion, Temeraire, Rodney, and, you guessed it, Howe. While Lion and Temeraire would both be ordered on schedule in 1938 only Rodney would be ordered in 1939 due to the outbreak of the second world war late in the year. Howe being delayed until the next year as the RN laid down a carrier instead.

Howe 1940
Plans for the fourth Lion class were abandoned in 1940 as a new design was planned instead. Initially it was intended to name this ship, to be 66,700 tons and armed with 18 inch guns, Howe. But on the direction of Churchill the new ship was instead called Devastation, to better reflect the power and size of the ship. Finally in 1941 the RN received funding to build a replacement for the cancelled Howe 1939, but perhaps suspecting the name to be cursed, the RN instead ordered a repeat Devastation as the Superb.

Finally, long after the end of the second world war the Royal navy would commission a HMS Howe at long length. Howe being an Admiral class missile cruiser commissioned in 1967 and seeing service until 1992 when she was scrapped.
 
It's ironic that Tiger, which was something of a defaulters ship, was the ship in Beatty's force that obeyed the regulations. Against the unofficial orders of the Admiral.
 
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The above is from my Alyska TL. I thought it would be funny if the British had an equivalent to the USNs Montana. A ship where they tried repeatedly to commission a vessel bearing the name, but which was foiled through a number of reasons.
 
I suspect that at least one other German Battlecruiser probably wouldn't have made it home.

Probably more than one. Even historically, Seydlitz was lucky she didn't run into a stiff breeze, and Derfflinger wasn't in that much better state.

It's ironic that Tiger, which was something of a defaulters ship, was the in Beatty's force that obeyed the regulations. Against the unofficial orders of the Admiral.

Probably for the same reason - she was brand new, commissioned after the start of the war and so got the dregs of the barrel, but therefore also hadn't been indoctrinated into the BCS/F Church of St David.
 
Probably more than one. Even historically, Seydlitz was lucky she didn't run into a stiff breeze, and Derfflinger wasn't in that much better state.
Huh now that would be a intresting Jutland scenario. The RN losses basically everything it lost otl but Queen Mary but in exchange the 1st Scouting Group has been gutted with a mere 2 or perhaps if they're lucky 3 Battlecruisers making it home. Honestly in such a scenario the RN could quite justifiably claim both a tactical and strategic victory. However the RN would still have almost certainly learned the lessons it learned in otl from Jutland
 
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