So alternate unifications of Germany are fascinating to me and many others on this forum. One I always find interesting is a kliendeusthland without purssia (or tradiing it for german austria). So I was thinking, what kind of post-westphallian PODs would w need to get this germany, which instead of Prussia's baltic coast and Silesia, has the Archducal territory of Austria and Bohemia. Capital is at your discretion, though I would suspect either presitigous Vienna or central Liepzig. Given Austria and Bohemia are absolutely massive chunks, does this germany still look southward towards the Balkans and Hungary? (for convienence, we'll just say hungary retains its crownlands); or is it more concerned with the west, with France and Britain, two formidable powers, right on its flank?
AHC:This "Germany"
- Thread starter KingOnTheEdge
- Start date
So alternate unifications of Germany are fascinating to me and many others on this forum. One I always find interesting is a kliendeusthland without purssia (or tradiing it for german austria). So I was thinking, what kind of post-westphallian PODs would w need to get this germany, which instead of Prussia's baltic coast and Silesia, has the Archducal territory of Austria and Bohemia. Capital is at your discretion, though I would suspect either presitigous Vienna or central Liepzig. Given Austria and Bohemia are absolutely massive chunks, does this germany still look southward towards the Balkans and Hungary? (for convienence, we'll just say hungary retains its crownlands); or is it more concerned with the west, with France and Britain, two formidable powers, right on its flank?
This is slightly more plausible than others I've seen - slightly. The Austrian liberals were never quite so ambitious, imo, as to want this, but they could perhaps be forced to that extreme. The German unification with the Czechs is a bit more improbable - especially we're considering, I think, a successful1848 where Prussia itself is somewhow undermined.
I like the idea though - it's worth noting at this point that the remainder of the Austrian Empire is basically going to collapse for sure here, meaning good news for Sardinia-Piedmont and Hungary. Bad news for most everyone else. Expect to lose Czechia to indigenous nationalism sooner or later.
Also the borders of your version should probably reflect a less, erm, swollen version of Austria. No sea access for you, glen coco.
I like the idea though - it's worth noting at this point that the remainder of the Austrian Empire is basically going to collapse for sure here, meaning good news for Sardinia-Piedmont and Hungary. Bad news for most everyone else. Expect to lose Czechia to indigenous nationalism sooner or later.
Also the borders of your version should probably reflect a less, erm, swollen version of Austria. No sea access for you, glen coco.
I see what you mean in regards to a PoD around 1848. Ultimately, i mainly used the vic 2 map because it was a bit easier to mess with than others from the time period, hence why I referred to Hungary having the crownlands (tbh i didn't know what to do with Lombardy-Venetia). Likewise I see the point about Chzechia, though could this Germany keep hold of the Sudetenland if the rebellious prague claimed it, or would Paris and London back the rebels, still fearing this germany?
Well conceptually, the Sudentenland is an invention of 20th century Germans, so that's a big problem with the idea ever becoming prominent in this ATL. Certainly, Germans would not be pleased with being part of a Czech-dominated state. And I don't think it's wholly impossible that a greater German state holds Czechia, just that it would be hard and by the 20th century almost a certainty - and no way are Czech nationalists accepting a chopped-up version of their state if it comes to that.
Paris and London are difficult to predict - if this is 1848, Paris isn't in much a position to do much of anything, and London's response - honestly I have no idea. Russia is the big threat - the gendarme of Europe, they'll put this liberal Germany back in shape, unless the Germans can win a major war with a great power (presumably backed by whatever Hapsburg remnant endures and the Prussians as well).
@Practical Lobster @KingOnTheEdge: to me this one looked as a scenario in which Habsburgs lost Hungary but united Germany (with Hohenzollern losing Brandenburg to Germany). Bohemia was part of Germany, like Austria while Italy also had some strong ties (as ”former” land of the Holy Roman Empire, like Netherlands, Belgium, Savoy, Alsace-Lorraine, Franche-Comte and Switzerland). Still Silesia being out sound pretty unlikely
Since Germany (in basically post-1945 borders) and Austria combined has a lot more Germans than the OTL Hapsburg Empire I'd assume the growth of cities in Bohemia-Moravia as well as the importance of Bohemia-Moravia's resources (as it was OTL in the Austro-Hungarian Empire) would probably mean the proportion of Germans would be higher than OTL. OTL it was hovered between 36-38% in Bohemia and 28% in Moravia and Prague became a Czech city in the late 19th century, but in this scenario (1848 I guess?) it's probably possible to alter that dynamic. Since even OTL Prague was about 10% German in 1900 I don't think Czech independence is particularly likely so long as Germany doesn't collapse after a major defeat in war like 1918. In that scenario I think the Czechs would end up losing the Sudetenland to a Freikorps movement.
I mean the Irish nationalists kind of had to OTL. The only way you're getting an independent Czechia is after years of exhaustion in a great war and the anti-German side isn't going to be able to enforce the total independence of the former Bohemian crownlands nor have a great desire to considering their own exhaustion. So the Sudeten Germans and nationalist Freikorps would reannex most of the Sudetenland into Germany much as happened in Silesia. In the event Germany wins the war and is still exhausted, then the Czech uprising would need to be severe enough that it's easier to just accept a weak, dependent Czech state instead of going for total re-annexation and in that case they'd still make sure the Sudetenland is theirs.
You'd have to get the Hapsburgs to want Brandenburg over Silesia which as you said, doesn't seem likely given they owned Silesia for centuries and relatively recently lost it to Prussia.
Germany sans Prussia with Prusso-Polish dual monarchy instead of Austria-Hungary? Althogh Brandenburg should be part of that Poland-Prussia too for it to works
The borders are simply wrong. Silesia need to be German and everything would be fine...