Ahc: screw the Kriegsmarine even harder

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
A more aggressive Grand Admiral - or fire-eating fleet commanders - insists that the Kriegsmarine must be out on the North Atlantic convoy routes doing their duty for the Reich. Perhaps stung by an observation from Hitler that the Kriegsmarine is sitting useless in harbour while the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe are shedding good German blood to the very weapons being shipped over the water.

Add a twist - on one mission the Bismarck (or any other ocean raider) runs into the White Patrol and deliberately (under Fuhrer's orders) or accidentally (mistakes for RN) sinks an American warship, and there is proof that the act was carried out by Germans (survivors, other ships present, aircraft reports, bombastic broadcast from the Reichchancellery, etc.)
 
Wait i thought more uboats more effective kriegsmarine?
Not exactly. For one, The British would be free to deploy basically all of their heavy units to the med or the Pacific if they’re not worried about the Twins or B&T. Or rather, to the Med and then redeploying the fleet to the Pacific once the RM is dead or terrified hiding in port. The only units they’d need in the Atlantic are corvettes, destroyers, and some escort carriers here and there, maybe a single task force of cruisers if the Germans seem likely to sortie their light units, and that’s a maybe there.
 
Last edited:
Not exactly. For one, The British would be free to deploy basically all of their heavy units to the med or the Pacific if they’re not worried about the Twins or B&T. Or rather, to the Med and then redeploying the fleet to the Pacific once the RM is dead or terrified hiding in port. The only units they’d need in the Atlantic are corvettes, destroyers, and some escort carriers here and there, maybe a single task force of cruisers if the Germans seem likely to sortie their light units, and that’s a maybe there.
Ohh thanks for the explanation
 
Last edited:
Not exactly. For one, The British would be free to deploy basically all of their heavy units to the med or the Pacific if they’re not worried about the Twins or B&T. Or rather, to the Med and then redeploying the fleet to the Pacific once the RM is dead or terrified hiding in port. The only units they’d need in the Atlantic are corvettes, destroyers, and some escort carriers here and there, maybe a single task force of cruisers if the Germans seem likely to sortie their light units, and that’s a maybe there.
Only if you consider tieing up Royal Navy units as a win. The Royal navy kept a disproportionate force in home waters as a reaction to the kriegsmarine. The km didn't succeed in sinking ships but it tied up a huge amount.

As a suggestion to the op just avoid as many of the lucky moments as possible. Royal Oak, Glorious, Courageous, Ark Royal, and Hood were all incredible lucky breaks for the Kriegsmarine. Remove them and things get a lot harder for the Germans surface fleet at sea.

As to uboats well get lucky and kill off 2 or 3 ships early. You've probably removed the commanders of 10 or 15 late war ships that way. Another suggestion would be to have the RAF catch and destroy the early uboat bases in France before the pen system was built up.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Only if you consider tieing up Royal Navy units as a win. The Royal navy kept a disproportionate force in home waters as a reaction to the kriegsmarine. The km didn't succeed in sinking ships but it tied up a huge amount.
But realistically that benefitted the Italian & Japanese navies to a greater extent, not so much the Kriegsmarine for whom interrupting the Arctic Convoys and defending Norway was about the limit - and one could argue that holding Norway was the price for interrupting the Arctic Convoys, not a benefit.
 
Hitler doesn't wait for air supremacy but orders Operation Sea Lion to take place in July or early August of 1940. Even if 'enough' German troops get ashore in good order one way or another and the British (still reeling from the Norway beating they took and the disastrous losses of men, equipment and weapons in France) collapse and lose, there may not be much of a Kriegsmarine left afterwards.
Britain surrenders & loses the war.

BTW RAF BOMBER COMMAND couldn't hit anything smaller than a city until late 1941/42, so that's out.

BTW KM lost 28 out of 147 ships involved during its invasion fleet in Norway. That's 1/5 vessels not fleet. In terms of warships its 23 out of 104.
 
Last edited:

nbcman

Donor
Britain surrenders & loses the war.

BTW RAF BOMBER COMMAND couldn't hit anything smaller than a city until late 1941/42, so that's out.
BTW why would RAF Bomber Command be involved. They have strategic bombers not suited for anti-shipping strikes. Plinking the pitiful remnants of the KM would be a job for RAF Coastal Command and the FAA; assuming the RN leaves them any scraps if the KM and the barges were so bold to come out and play in the Channel.
BTW KM lost 28 out of 147 ships involved during its invasion fleet in Norway. That's 1/5 vessels not fleet. In terms of warships its 23 out of 104.
Not exactly. For the KM forces that were directly involved in the invasion of Norway, There were two BCs (damaged), 3 CAs (1 sunk, 2 damaged), 5 CLs (2 sunk, 1 damaged), 14 DDs (10 sunk, scuttled, or beached), 4 tankers (all sunk or scuttled), 8 supply/cargo/troop ships (7 sunk), 10 torpedo boats (2 sunk, 1 damaged). All of those damaged ships aren't going to be ready for the USM. Now if you are going down into minesweepers and SS, they didn't get smashed up like other warships. But a minesweeper or a sub isn't going to help get those barges across the Channel for the USM in the face of the RN and RAF.
 
B&T get converted to aircraft carriers, and GZ and PS are finished/launched, or attempted to be. That would likely do the trick.
 
Britain surrenders & loses the war.

BTW RAF BOMBER COMMAND couldn't hit anything smaller than a city until late 1941/42, so that's out.

BTW KM lost 28 out of 147 ships involved during its invasion fleet in Norway. That's 1/5 vessels not fleet. In terms of warships its 23 out of 104.
I actually dont think operation seelowe will ever succeed instead it will be a huge disaster for the KM. The RN is strong in the 1940
 
Oh this is easy.

Prien runs aground in Skerry Sound having mistaken it for the less shallow Kirk Sound (OTL this nearly happened and Prein only realised at the last moment) not only does he not manage to sink Royal Oak but a boarding party storms U47 capturing vital Intel - this early bonus in decryption intel allows for a greater number of U-Boat sinkings in the first year of the war and correspondingly fewer Merchant losses.

One of the 2 Torpedoes that hit Courageous fail (a common occurrence in the early weeks of WW2) and the Carrier does not lose power - U29 is subsequently damaged by one of Courageous's aircraft that manages to launch and then hunted down and sunk by the Carriers escorts.

Have the British not delay the operations around Norway (OTL they set out for the large op planned to create mines fields etc as planned) and catch the German forces before they reached their target ports and have multiple German ships getting mugged by the superior British fleet.

Otl Several ships were torpedoed by subs during the op but not sunk.

ATL have those attacks go slightly better resulting in additional losses.

Have the Twins run into Renown pretty much as OTL but have the old girl get in some additional hits crippling one of them resulting in the loss of one or both.

A more robust defence by the Norwegian defences might also result in further losses.

But you didn't want any of that for some reason!

Okay so....

At this ATL version of Denmark Straits with the British Cruisers not losing contact overnight and the British capital ships cross their T at sunrise (as planned). In addition have Hood better Identify Bismarck - otl her first 4 round salvo straddled PE (Hood having misidentified the 2 ships and assumed that the Cruiser would be leading), instead have it ‘straddle’ Bismarck and get a hit between Anton and Bruno in that first salvo knocking the 2 forward turrets out of action and things go rapidly downhill from that point for the German ships as additional hits further degrade her fighting ability making her return fire much less effective while Hood and KGV from the first minute of the engagement enjoying a massive advantage in firepower (Ultimately 17 guns verses 4) which results in the German Battleship being lamed followed by PE being shot up after vainly trying to make a torpedo run to save Bismarck - both crippled ships ultimately being sunk by coup de grace torpedo attacks from the Cruisers and Destroyers (not detached as per OTL).

Several more of the Bombs that hit the Twins while they were in France actually do their duty causing catastrophic and crippling damage to both ships and neither leaves France

A bigger Operation chariot - a second boat rams the New Entrance Lock gates resulting in the Submarine Pen in the Bassin De Saint Nazaire also being rendered inoperable and the 10 I believe it was U-boats being trapped for several weeks / months while the gates were repaired / cleared - degrading u-boat ops for several vital months in Mid 1942.

For extra 'XP' have one of the Twins being repaired in the Normandie Dock at the time of the attack and the explosion of Campbelltown cause even more damage

Operation Source (the X-boat attack on Tirpitz in 1943) - sinks her as 2 more of the Mines are placed under the ships stern breaking her back, buckling prop shafts and opening several machinary spaces to the sea resulting in rapid catastrophic flooding causing her to capsize in minutes.
You know what after reading this again how about we tried to make the invasion of norway and denmark as bloody as possible for the kriegsmarine but they still manage to take norway. I wanted to know how can the KM screwed up badly in both the invasion of norway and battle of atlantic.

So have fun throwing ideas!
 
Last edited:
You know what after reading this again how about we tried to make the invasion of norway and denmark as bloody as possible for the kriegsmarine but they still manage to take norway. I wanted to know how can the KM screwed up badly in both the invasion of norway and battle of atlantic.

So have fun throwing ideas!
Easy get have all the KM ships that got torpedoed by subs during the Norwegian Campaign sink and have the Hipper be hit by one of Glowworm's torpedoes and explode. Then have Ardent and Acasta save the Glorious and sink the twins via torpedo hits at the cost of themselves
 
Last edited:
Another minor thing we can do is have the HMAS Sydney be a bit more cautious and as result smash the Kormoran with only minor damage being sustained by her
 
Having dispatched the Bismarck in 1941 (via OTL or some of the suggestions of this thread) the Home Fleet catches the Tirpitz on its sortie in March 42 due to better weather and the Victorious being able to launch search aircraft and then a full airstrike - cf Roskill War at Sea Vol II p.120-121
 
BTW why would RAF Bomber Command be involved. They have strategic bombers not suited for anti-shipping strikes. Plinking the pitiful remnants of the KM would be a job for RAF Coastal Command and the FAA; assuming the RN leaves them any scraps if the KM and the barges were so bold to come out and play in the Channel.

Not exactly. For the KM forces that were directly involved in the invasion of Norway, There were two BCs (damaged), 3 CAs (1 sunk, 2 damaged), 5 CLs (2 sunk, 1 damaged), 14 DDs (10 sunk, scuttled, or beached), 4 tankers (all sunk or scuttled), 8 supply/cargo/troop ships (7 sunk), 10 torpedo boats (2 sunk, 1 damaged). All of those damaged ships aren't going to be ready for the USM. Now if you are going down into minesweepers and SS, they didn't get smashed up like other warships. But a minesweeper or a sub isn't going to help get those barges across the Channel for the USM in the face of the RN and RAF.
In order to invade you mostly need merchant ships for port to port landings- the rest can be achieved through deception and RN incompetence. Dito for the so called naval patrol & attack planes that were only able to detect 1 German ship out of every seven , during this period.
 
Last edited:
Only if you consider tieing up Royal Navy units as a win. The Royal navy kept a disproportionate force in home waters as a reaction to the kriegsmarine. The km didn't succeed in sinking ships but it tied up a huge amount.

As a suggestion to the op just avoid as many of the lucky moments as possible. Royal Oak, Glorious, Courageous, Ark Royal, and Hood were all incredible lucky breaks for the Kriegsmarine. Remove them and things get a lot harder for the Germans surface fleet at sea.

As to uboats well get lucky and kill off 2 or 3 ships early. You've probably removed the commanders of 10 or 15 late war ships that way. Another suggestion would be to have the RAF catch and destroy the early uboat bases in France before the pen system was built up.
Or long-term repeatable sabotage in each pen system. Say a central bombproof generator rigged to broadcast radio signals at a certain time: 'Hitler rules, Britain drools', 'Get off the official channel you ----!' and a tone that radio-guided bombs could hit. And of course a ton of tnt in the foundation of the main diesel tank.

A German memoirist said he went paratrooper because he saw wounded paratroops coming back and no returning sub crew. If the first ten Uboats were just blown up for no return, the Germans might have cut back on building them. They knew Uboats were dangerous and expensive.
 
In order to invade you mostly need merchant ships for port to port landings- the rest can be achieved through deception and RN incompetence. Dito for the so called naval patrol & attack planes that were only able to detect 1 German ship out of every seven , during this period.


File:Royal Artillery 9.2-inch coastal defence guns at ... Wiki commons.

I am not very bright. Are those not naval rifles?

Are they not these?

23,000 meters effective and guaranteed to blow a freighter apart with HE common as it tries to disembark troops into Rhine coal barges converted into auto-sinkers during USM.

I have done about 15 or so USM threads as a participant and/or observer as a debunker, and while I have never had much respect for the Gentlemen's Flying Club in the RIKKO side of things, those guys above lived for the day when they could use an invasion fleet for target practice.

That is why it is not a good idea in that era to try "port to port"; but over the beach... AFTER you knock out those guys, above. Cannot do that unless you land where they ain't.
 
Last edited:


File:Royal Artillery 9.2-inch coastal defence guns at ... Wiki commons.

I am not very bright. Are those not naval rifles?

Are they not these?

23,000 meters effective and guaranteed to blow a freighter apart with HE common as it tries to disembark troops into Rhine coal barges converted into auto-sinkers during USM.

I have done about 15 or so USM threads as a participant and/or observer as a debunker, and while I have never had much respect for the Gentlemen's Flying Club in the RIKKO side of things, those guys above lived for the day when they could use an invasion fleet for target practice.

That is why it is not a good idea in that era to try "port to port"; but over the beach... AFTER you knock out those guys, above. Cannot do that unless you land where they ain't.
Not clear what guns it was against, but pretty sure the USA put troops ashore, 'port to port' at Algiers during the Torch operation in 1942. Unless local resistance members had knocked out any and all harbour defences or something, the USA showed it could be done - and done successfully - during WW2.
 
Top