Ahc: screw the Kriegsmarine even harder

The weather clears somewhat at an opportune time and Operation Cerberus (The Channel Dash) doesn't go as well for the Kriegsmarine. Either, or both of the Twins get torpedoed badly enough by aircraft where they're in the body and fender shop for an extended stretch. Or, a British submarine or two are able to get more substantive hits with the larger torpedos.

HMS Pinafore did a good story on this on the Warships1 board....we even get a hit on Scharnhorst from the 14" shore battery.
 

Stenz

Monthly Donor
Hitler doesn’t stop Raeder from sending out surface units after the failure of Regenbogen and doesn’t ask for his resignation.
 
Well we know that the Kriegsmarine is quite screwed in ww2 so can we screwed it even harder? Like wasting resources, poor uboat performance,etc.

The reason why i started this thread is because i usually sees thread about better kriegsmarine so i want to see how can we screwed them hard.

Oh yea POD must be after the fall of Norway because i dont want too see them getting absolutely curbstomp at operation Weserübung.

Oh this is easy.

Prien runs aground in Skerry Sound having mistaken it for the less shallow Kirk Sound (OTL this nearly happened and Prein only realised at the last moment) not only does he not manage to sink Royal Oak but a boarding party storms U47 capturing vital Intel - this early bonus in decryption intel allows for a greater number of U-Boat sinkings in the first year of the war and correspondingly fewer Merchant losses.

One of the 2 Torpedoes that hit Courageous fail (a common occurrence in the early weeks of WW2) and the Carrier does not lose power - U29 is subsequently damaged by one of Courageous's aircraft that manages to launch and then hunted down and sunk by the Carriers escorts.

Have the British not delay the operations around Norway (OTL they set out for the large op planned to create mines fields etc as planned) and catch the German forces before they reached their target ports and have multiple German ships getting mugged by the superior British fleet.

Otl Several ships were torpedoed by subs during the op but not sunk.

ATL have those attacks go slightly better resulting in additional losses.

Have the Twins run into Renown pretty much as OTL but have the old girl get in some additional hits crippling one of them resulting in the loss of one or both.

A more robust defence by the Norwegian defences might also result in further losses.

But you didn't want any of that for some reason!

Okay so....

At this ATL version of Denmark Straits with the British Cruisers not losing contact overnight and the British capital ships cross their T at sunrise (as planned). In addition have Hood better Identify Bismarck - otl her first 4 round salvo straddled PE (Hood having misidentified the 2 ships and assumed that the Cruiser would be leading), instead have it ‘straddle’ Bismarck and get a hit between Anton and Bruno in that first salvo knocking the 2 forward turrets out of action and things go rapidly downhill from that point for the German ships as additional hits further degrade her fighting ability making her return fire much less effective while Hood and KGV from the first minute of the engagement enjoying a massive advantage in firepower (Ultimately 17 guns verses 4) which results in the German Battleship being lamed followed by PE being shot up after vainly trying to make a torpedo run to save Bismarck - both crippled ships ultimately being sunk by coup de grace torpedo attacks from the Cruisers and Destroyers (not detached as per OTL).

Several more of the Bombs that hit the Twins while they were in France actually do their duty causing catastrophic and crippling damage to both ships and neither leaves France

A bigger Operation chariot - a second boat rams the New Entrance Lock gates resulting in the Submarine Pen in the Bassin De Saint Nazaire also being rendered inoperable and the 10 I believe it was U-boats being trapped for several weeks / months while the gates were repaired / cleared - degrading u-boat ops for several vital months in Mid 1942.

For extra 'XP' have one of the Twins being repaired in the Normandie Dock at the time of the attack and the explosion of Campbelltown cause even more damage

Operation Source (the X-boat attack on Tirpitz in 1943) - sinks her as 2 more of the Mines are placed under the ships stern breaking her back, buckling prop shafts and opening several machinary spaces to the sea resulting in rapid catastrophic flooding causing her to capsize in minutes.
 
Oh this is easy.

Prien runs aground in Skerry Sound having mistaken it for the less shallow Kirk Sound (OTL this nearly happened and Prein only realised at the last moment) not only does he not manage to sink Royal Oak but a boarding party storms U47 capturing vital Intel - this early bonus in decryption intel allows for a greater number of U-Boat sinkings in the first year of the war and correspondingly fewer Merchant losses.

One of the 2 Torpedoes that hit Courageous fail (a common occurrence in the early weeks of WW2) and the Carrier does not lose power - U29 is subsequently damaged by one of Courageous's aircraft that manages to launch and then hunted down and sunk by the Carriers escorts.

Have the British not delay the operations around Norway (OTL they set out for the large op planned to create mines fields etc as planned) and catch the German forces before they reached their target ports and have multiple German ships getting mugged by the superior British fleet.

Otl Several ships were torpedoed by subs during the op but not sunk.

ATL have those attacks go slightly better resulting in additional losses.

Have the Twins run into Renown pretty much as OTL but have the old girl get in some additional hits crippling one of them resulting in the loss of one or both.

A more robust defence by the Norwegian defences might also result in further losses.

But you didn't want any of that for some reason!

Okay so....

At this ATL version of Denmark Straits with the British Cruisers not losing contact overnight and the British capital ships cross their T at sunrise (as planned). In addition have Hood better Identify Bismarck - otl her first 4 round salvo straddled PE (Hood having misidentified the 2 ships and assumed that the Cruiser would be leading), instead have it ‘straddle’ Bismarck and get a hit between Anton and Bruno in that first salvo knocking the 2 forward turrets out of action and things go rapidly downhill from that point for the German ships as additional hits further degrade her fighting ability making her return fire much less effective while Hood and KGV from the first minute of the engagement enjoying a massive advantage in firepower (Ultimately 17 guns verses 4) which results in the German Battleship being lamed followed by PE being shot up after vainly trying to make a torpedo run to save Bismarck - both crippled ships ultimately being sunk by coup de grace torpedo attacks from the Cruisers and Destroyers (not detached as per OTL).

Several more of the Bombs that hit the Twins while they were in France actually do their duty causing catastrophic and crippling damage to both ships and neither leaves France

A bigger Operation chariot - a second boat rams the New Entrance Lock gates resulting in the Submarine Pen in the Bassin De Saint Nazaire also being rendered inoperable and the 10 I believe it was U-boats being trapped for several weeks / months while the gates were repaired / cleared - degrading u-boat ops for several vital months in Mid 1942.

For extra 'XP' have one of the Twins being repaired in the Normandie Dock at the time of the attack and the explosion of Campbelltown cause even more damage

Operation Source (the X-boat attack on Tirpitz in 1943) - sinks her as 2 more of the Mines are placed under the ships stern breaking her back, buckling prop shafts and opening several machinary spaces to the sea resulting in rapid catastrophic flooding causing her to capsize in minutes.
Holy crap nice detail
 

Driftless

Donor
An oldie, but a great timeline: "The Whale Has Wings" by Astrodragon.

Two excellent ongoing threads where the Kriegsmarine takes some lumps:
"Keyne's Cruisers (Volumes 1 & Volume 2)" by Fester
"April 1942 Alternate Indian Ocean" by Zheng He (There are operations outside of the Indian Ocean in this one)

*edit*
Doh! Another very good ongoing thread where the Kriegsmarine has "difficulties".....
Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL by CV(N)-6

For those of you not familiar with these works, they're lengthy, very well researched, detailed, and very well crafted.
 
Last edited:
Don’t build any capital ships focus on submarines only. There you go, a wrecked Kriegsmarine and ineffective submarine war from the get go.
 
Well we know that the Kriegsmarine is quite screwed in ww2 so can we screwed it even harder? Like wasting resources, poor uboat performance,etc.

The reason why i started this thread is because i usually sees thread about better kriegsmarine so i want to see how can we screwed them hard.

Oh yea POD must be after the fall of Norway because i dont want too see them getting absolutely curbstomp at operation Weserübung.
Hitler doesn't wait for air supremacy but orders Operation Sea Lion to take place in July or early August of 1940. Even if 'enough' German troops get ashore in good order one way or another and the British (still reeling from the Norway beating they took and the disastrous losses of men, equipment and weapons in France) collapse and lose, there may not be much of a Kriegsmarine left afterwards.
 
A
Hitler doesn't wait for air supremacy but orders Operation Sea Lion to take place in July or early August of 1940. Even if 'enough' German troops get ashore in good order one way or another and the British (still reeling from the Norway beating they took and the disastrous losses of men, equipment and weapons in France) collapse and lose, there may not be much of a Kriegsmarine left afterwards.
Well seelowe will certainly crush the kriegsmarine hard.
 
Wait i thought more uboats more effective kriegsmarine?

More uboats and no capital ships = Britain is free to move capital assets, free to focus on building ASW ships and equipment, it makes it clear that Germany will go for the trade and preparations will be made.
 
You know what im going to create a new thread called screw the ijn im getting interested to see a weaker japanese military in ww2
 
How about RAF patrol blimps to close the mid Atlantic gap ?

Also a better prepared America , so no golden time of the American Coast , More ASW resources earlier leading to U boats being lost .
 
So how can we screw the uboat at the battle of atlantic? (Some KM spillover.)

a. FIDO
b. Sonobuoys
c. MOUSETRAP
d. CVEs
e. Really big destroyers for bases deal (100 instead of 40.)
f. Royal Ingersoll
g. Federals arrest all those mayors along the east coast for not imposing blackout and port traffic control.
h. HAP Arnold slips on a banana.
i. Pound slips on a banana.
j. British figure out convoy and traffic control on W-1 insteead of W-450 or thereabouts.
k. TF-1 meets Lutjens instead of Holland and greets him with the Tennessee Two Step.
i. Someone COMPETENT fights at the River Plate. Nominate Vian.
k. Maybe mine the U-boat harbors and mousehole with own subs?
l. Maybe Portal slips on a banana. See h.
j. British develop a competent naval staff for a global war?

I know "j" is controversial, but seriously, from 1939 to 1941, the RN's strategic vision SUCKED by USN standards.
 
Last edited:
H
a. FIDO
b. Sonobuoys
c. MOUSETRAP
d. CVEs
e. Really big destroyers for bases deal (100 instead of 40.)
f. Royal Ingersoll
g. Federals arrest all those mayors along the east coast for not imposing blackout and port traffic control.
h. HAP Arnold slips on a banana.
i. Pound slips on a banana.
j. British figure out convoy and traffic control on W-1 insteead of W-450 or thereabouts.
k. TF-1 meets Lutjens instead of Holland and greets him with the Tennessee Two Step.
i. Someone COMPETENT fights at the River Plate. Nominate Vian.
k. Maybe mine the U-boat harbors and mousehole with own subs?
l. Maybe Portal slips on a banana. See h.
j. British develop a competent naval staff for a global war?
Holy crap you seriously giving the uboat a bad time lmao.
 
Top