AHC: Reverse the footballing fates of England and Germany

After last night's match, I need an alternate universe to cheer me up, so here is your challenge:

With a POD no earlier than the 1966 World Cup (so both England and West Germany have won the tournament at this point), make it so, while both England and Germany are football mad and deeply passionate about the game, England is clearly the more successful team, winning multiple titles and considered to be one of the football superpowers, while Germany consistently fails to meet expectations.
 
England win the game in the World cup 1970? Then they defeat Italy in the semifinal and play hard against Pele and the rest of Brazil and win for the second straight time?
 
As in the UK/Germany both play football? Well, to get the germans into it a POD in the occupation, perhaps. No idea on how ot get the UK to play football since rugby OTL fills the niche football could have taken in Britain.
 
England win the game in the World cup 1970? Then they defeat Italy in the semifinal and play hard against Pele and the rest of Brazil and win for the second straight time?

Yes, I think Gordon Banks playing in 1970 is the only credible POD here. And potentially for a very great deal else, of course.

There is a credible argument that had England been consistently successful at the top level of world football, then Brexit would never have perceived as necessary by enough people to tip it over.
 
There is a credible argument that had England been consistently successful at the top level of world football, then Brexit would never have perceived as necessary by enough people to tip it over.
I'm not sure how credible that theory is, but it is likely that Brexit would never be necessary in this timeline as England winning in 1970 (which seems to be the POD most are suggesting to maintain England's success) would avert the swing to the Conservatives which allowed them to win in 1970, allowing Labour to secure re-election and butterflying away the Heath Ministry and, as a consequence, Britain's entry into the Common Market.
 
I think that the best pod for Germany not being so great would be to someone get Beckenbauer to not take up football. That might make difference.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Need to change the culture. English and UK players don’t really treat their international commitments seriously. They feel club football is where it’s at. Germany see the WC and International Tournaments as the pinnacle.
 
England having better domestic players overall would help.

The vast amount of money domestic teams can spend on some of the world's best players may help those teams, but it doesn't help the national team.
 
Need to change the culture. English and UK players don’t really treat their international commitments seriously. They feel club football is where it’s at. Germany see the WC and International Tournaments as the pinnacle.
I agree but bundesleague is still mighty important..
 
Wasn't WWI pretty much won in the penalties ?
Nah - it all came about when the Allies brought in the US as a substitution after Russia was injured mid-game!

Need to change the culture. English and UK players don’t really treat their international commitments seriously. They feel club football is where it’s at. Germany see the WC and International Tournaments as the pinnacle.
Perhaps such a change in culture could come about if, over the course of the 70s, England plays consistently well at the World Cup while West Germany gradually stagnates? Say, as others have suggested, England beats W. Germany in the quarter-final and then defeats Italy to reach the final, only to be beaten by Brazil. Then England beats W. Germany again in the play-offs for Euro 1972 and goes on to win the tournament. Finally, in 1974, England avoid failing to qualify (due to being seeded as one of the top four of the last World Cup) and take Poland's place in Group Four, reaching Group B in the second round to knock out W. Germany and progress to the final, beating the Netherlands and securing England's second title.

That sets up, along with the 1966 Final, four English victories over West Germany which clearly asserts England's position as the better team, while seeing England secure victory twice on home terrain would surely demoralise the Germans. Therefore, as the 70s come to a close and the 80s begin, in England ever greater amounts of funding and focus is given to the national team while, in W. Germany, football fans gradually move away from the international picture to focus on the Bundesliga as consolation.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Interesting TL.
It quite instructive that the two periods of greatest success for English clubs in Europe the mid 1970's to early 1980's and 2005-2011 is also a time of poor national team performance.

Even today you'll see English press dub the CL "the real World Cup". You don't see that anywhere else. Frankly players who have played both WC and CL finals have said the former is a lot more difficult.
 

SSJRED

Banned
Have German football remain amateur for longer, delay the introduction of the Bundesliga. Germany was one of the last western European nations to adopt proffesionalism, yet inspite of that they were still able to win a world cup with a mostly comepletly amateur team.
If you want England to have an overall better performance at International level then delay the growth of proffesional football for a decade or two. England was easily one of the stongest footballing nation prior to to WW2 as they had the oldest and most proffesional football league in the world.
For a long time some European teams refused to have proffesionals compete at an international level. If you can have that attitude last a bit longer then you can improve Englands chances of being a succesful footballing nation similar to Germany in OTL
 
Nah - it all came about when the Allies brought in the US as a substitution after Russia was injured mid-game!

That sub hadn't yet worked himself into the game - the Germans were playing for penalties, defended too high up the pitch, and we caught them on the break.

England having better domestic players overall would help.

I don't think individual player quality has often been an issue - the problem has usually been a mob of talented individuals getting thumped by teams.
 
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