AHC: Make the long-term survival of both Urartian-Hurrian, Elamite and East Semitic as spoken languages more likely than not

The challenge is to have all those 3 language groups likely survive long term, let's say another millennia longer, as widely spoken languages in a given region, preferrably close to their OTL region.

To be more precise the challenge is to make their survival likely, thus you need to create a situation where those 3 linguistic community can resist a natural and likely influx of foreign domination and foreign immigration of people speaking other languages. The challenge is thus not to create a specific timeline but to create a baseline that would help the language survive periods that killed the languages IOTL, like the Aramaic migration and Assyrian domination for Hurrian and East Semitic and the Iranian migrations for Elamite.

They can be reduced in scope and importance, like OTL Basque, but they have to be actively spoken languages around the late 1st millennium CE if not the modern day, preferably more than modern Aramaic.

The earliest POD is I'd say around 1650-1000 BCE, depending on how you want to go about it.
 
I think the main gist of any PoD needs to be a deferral or deterrent to the rise of the Persian empires (Medes, etc), since those really weakened the power of the local states in the area.
 
I think the main gist of any PoD needs to be a deferral or deterrent to the rise of the Persian empires (Medes, etc), since those really weakened the power of the local states in the area.
But by the time the Persians conquered the region Hurrian already died, Urartian was already being sidelined by Armenian, Aramaic was already eclipsing Akkadian and the Persians already dislodge Elamite from the Eastern half of their homeland.
 
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But by the time the Persians conquered the region Hurrian already died, Urartian was already being sidelined by Armenian, Aramaic was already eclipsing Akkadian and the Persians already dislodge Elamite from the Eastern half of their homeland.

Hurrian I am not sure is much differentiated from Urartian. Urartian was in my view, the Ardini dialect of the Hurrian spoken in the Bronze Age, which became the prestige tongue of the Urartu kingdom. It was likely, not the majority language spoken by the common people, but language derived from the city of Ardini within Assyria.

For Hurrian to survive stronger, we need either a true stabilization of Urartu or more appropriately a Mitanni state that manages to destroy the Hatti kingdom and weather the collapses that occurred in the Late Bronze Age.

The biggest issue I have though, is that each of these areas are competing to a large degree and their survival is contentious due to this. However, perhaps the best way is to simply permit the survival of the Assyrian kingdom into the future, slowly increasing its effective grasp on the Middle East, while also reiterating its Akkadian personage. Elam remains a vassal or is made a vassal, protected yet diminished. Elamite can remain the primary language along the southern Karun river in Susa and nearby countryside marshlands. Elamite however was seemingly a minority or extinct already in Anshan to the east, or the land of Fars. Ardini or Urartian will be maintained as long as the Assyrian empire rules as its overlord and Assyria remains strong. The key is for Urartu to avoid the Median conquest, the Scythian invasions and so forth. Ardini also cannot be destroyed, the general consensus is that the city was destroyed by the Medes, its location somewhere between Lake Van and Nineveh within the Assyrian kingdom. As long as Ardini is not destroyed, it will remain a powerful city and its language will remain at least in the same capacity as say 1/3 the population of the modern number of Kurdish speakers today.
 
I think these cultures need to be strengthened, without subsuming one another, enough to resist foreign powers and to have a level of cultural dominance that makes it more likely others learn their languages than vice versa... How is another matter!
 
The biggest issue I have though, is that each of these areas are competing to a large degree and their survival is contentious due to this.
I think these cultures need to be strengthened, without subsuming one another, enough to resist foreign powers and to have a level of cultural dominance that makes it more likely others learn their languages than vice versa... How is another matter!
That's kinda way I put the challenge, this region had 3 isolates or very different linguistic groupings so it's an hotspot of diversity that died together around the same time(600-300 BCE I believe)

Hurrian I am not sure is much differentiated from Urartian. Urartian was in my view, the Ardini dialect of the Hurrian spoken in the Bronze Age, which became the prestige tongue of the Urartu kingdom. It was likely, not the majority language spoken by the common people, but language derived from the city of Ardini within Assyria.

For Hurrian to survive stronger, we need either a true stabilization of Urartu or more appropriately a Mitanni state that manages to destroy the Hatti kingdom and weather the collapses that occurred in the Late Bronze Age.
Or at least an Hurrian a kingdom that is not swept away from Arameans and keeps Akkadians at bay in this critical moment, maybe enough to absorb such population movements and assimilate them.

However, perhaps the best way is to simply permit the survival of the Assyrian kingdom into the future, slowly increasing its effective grasp on the Middle East, while also reiterating its Akkadian personage. Elam remains a vassal or is made a vassal, protected yet diminished. Elamite can remain the primary language along the southern Karun river in Susa and nearby countryside marshlands. Elamite however was seemingly a minority or extinct already in Anshan to the east, or the land of Fars. Ardini or Urartian will be maintained as long as the Assyrian empire rules as its overlord and Assyria remains strong. The key is for Urartu to avoid the Median conquest, the Scythian invasions and so forth. Ardini also cannot be destroyed, the general consensus is that the city was destroyed by the Medes, its location somewhere between Lake Van and Nineveh within the Assyrian kingdom. As long as Ardini is not destroyed, it will remain a powerful city and its language will remain at least in the same capacity as say 1/3 the population of the modern number of Kurdish speakers today.
I wonder, can't we have both Scythians and Persians act as Mitanni or Kassite-like entities for the Urartians and Elamites respectively? If the Mitanni did it, themselves being Indo-Iranian in origin, it shouldn't be too farfetched as long as it set up properly, this way we have a Etruscan or Basque-like scenario where the locals absorb Indo-European influence but retain their non-IE tongue.
 
@Gloss

The Mitanni are a unique entity that emerged in a very different time period. Its framing was different than any other realm in the ancient Mid East. It acted as a royal caste and noble warrior elite controlling an otherwise patchwork of some 300-500 kings and city states. The connection between all was a military that coordinated coalitions and a series of Hurro-Aryan cultural conceptions centered around this central royal and noble warrior caste.

The Medes by contrast were an Assyrian rebel state that had its own political systems, likely influenced by Elam. Persia was essentially and IE Elam with traits unique to their region, but it is the closest thing we get to Elamite without being Elamite.

The Scythians may be able to do this, they could be much like the Kassites or Arsacids. However, where will they rule? They would need to make some great gains in order to acquire all three areas. This means destroying the Medes and the Persians in order to protect Urartu and Elam and then ideally driving the Medes forth and then subjugating the more sedentary Persians. This is a possibility. The Arsacids managed to place Akkadian on life support and once their benign rule was removed by the Sassanids, Akkadian evaporated in less than two centuries.

But all of this is to say, each of these areas are under great threats and are already inundated. Hurrian as we mention is mostly gone from Syria by the year 630 BCE, with its only holdouts probably existing in the city of Carchemish. Perhaps with recent and hoped discoveries of Washukanni, we can decipher how long Hurrian remained in the region as an Assyrian province. My estimation is that it was destroyed during the Bronze Age Collapse and very early Iron Age, 1070-950 BCE. Hurrian as spoken in Urartu was probably a deep minority even in 750 BCE at its height. The eclectic nature of Urartian monarchical display tells us the story that their realm was interested primarily in prestige displays when it came to language, a custom common in their area. Luwian, Akkadian Ardinian, and so forth were all used in their realm, despite the first two having essentially no speakers in their home range. Considering the formation of the kingdom as an alliance between many ethnic groups and tribes, it would make sense that they choose frankly foreign or semi-foreign prestige tongues for their administration.

Elamite had been in dire straits ever since 1114-1110 BCE when Anshan was destroyed by the two Akkadian monarchs, Nebuchadnezzar I and Tiglath-Pileser I. It was in that frame that we see the appearance of presumably IE elements in the east, first as a minority and then over time overtaking the Elamite population. Meanwhile in Elam, the kingdom was becoming an Aramo-Elamite kingdom, with Aramaen-Chaldaean-Piqudu tribes ruling the government and having great sway. Aramaens had migrated into Elam and were the majority population along the borders of Elam withe Mesopotamia. In the north, the old Elamite vassals made up of a diverse mountain folk people providing it goods and soldiers were conquered by the emergent Median states which were in turn countered by Assyria and Urartu, with Elam playing no role in stopping them. Elamite despite its great fame and prowess in the past, was not even used by the Arsacids or the Greco-Elamite kings, who used Aramaic for administration. Great changes had occurred essentially, Elamite lost its prestige as early as 400 BCE most likely, only 130 years since its inundation under the Achaemenids. It would seem thus, it was already becoming extinct in its homeland due to low rates of birth, destruction in war and migration waves that in turn assimilated the Elamites.

Mesopotamia is a known quantity. Without Assyria enforcing an Akkadianism upon the region, it was an extremely tense ethnic situation. Aramaens and Akkadians battled viciously for authority over Babylon with signs of ethnic strife until the Assyrians asserted itself and placed only Akkadian kings on the throne. In fact, all rebellions against Assyria in Karduniash, were the result of this Akkadian-Aramaen battle over influence. One that the Assyrians were also embroiled in, as the Aramaen tide had overtaken many areas of traditionally Akkadian or Hurrian territories (the two languages that we may say are Assyria's primary cultures). When Assur-dan II (934-912 BCE) ascended to the throne, his annals make claims that the western enemies or the Aramaens had massacred Akkadians in the west and enslaved thousands of his people and that his military campaigns westward were intended to free them from slavery and restore an Akkadianism unto the region, framing the wars in a light of ethnic strife.

The Scythians will have as much difficulty maintaining all three lingustic spheres. I think they can maintain Akkadian, and possibly Hurrian, if they can act fast enough and destroy the Medes. Regarding Elam, I feel it is a lost cause for them to be saved linguistically. They have too much incoming migrants and their language holds prestige among people who do not even speak it, that is it is already a ceremonial language in Fars. In Elam proper, it is in a very small area and one that is already covered in migrants and their self-sustaining parallel societies. Indeed, the Iron Age and Bronze Age Mid East is not a good example for cultural and ethnic diversity in a harmonious sense.
 
@John7755 يوحنا

Remember I'm looking at it also from the pre-Late Bronze Age period so the Babylonian triumph over Elam or the Aramean migration is something we could work against.

I imagine something like a survival of the Mitanni and prolong or establish a durable balance of power between Egypt, Hatti, Mitanni, Babylonia and Elam and maybe we could have the Arameans migrated South or West towards Egypt during the Bronze Age collapses if we have the Mitanni survive but have the Hittite and Egyptian collapse.

Without the Aramean migration in the this region the situation wouldn't deteriorate for all 3 language groups. Elam could in the mean time absorb incoming Iranians after the 12th century if we have them either resist against Babylon or triumph over them(I assume this wouldn't hurt Akkadian given we still prevent Arameans from getting in)

So we averted this "disaster" now we could either redirect or prevent a Scythian invasion or success or maybe we could use it against the mountain folk in Armenian Highlands and Media to maybe give the impetus to a stronger Elam and Mitanni states to create a buffer region to defend against nomadic incursions from the Steppe, Western Iranians would also be more willing to become part of an Elamite lead coalition if under such threat. That's just a scenario I came up with.

Indeed, the Iron Age and Bronze Age Mid East is not a good example for cultural and ethnic diversity in a harmonious sense.
It seems there is no space for all those languages to fit, I was actually wondering if there was space for a Levantine Anatolian(IE) language in the iron age too...
 
@John7755 يوحنا

Remember I'm looking at it also from the pre-Late Bronze Age period so the Babylonian triumph over Elam or the Aramean migration is something we could work against.

I imagine something like a survival of the Mitanni and prolong or establish a durable balance of power between Egypt, Hatti, Mitanni, Babylonia and Elam and maybe we could have the Arameans migrated South or West towards Egypt during the Bronze Age collapses if we have the Mitanni survive but have the Hittite and Egyptian collapse.

Without the Aramean migration in the this region the situation wouldn't deteriorate for all 3 language groups. Elam could in the mean time absorb incoming Iranians after the 12th century if we have them either resist against Babylon or triumph over them(I assume this wouldn't hurt Akkadian given we still prevent Arameans from getting in)

So we averted this "disaster" now we could either redirect or prevent a Scythian invasion or success or maybe we could use it against the mountain folk in Armenian Highlands and Media to maybe give the impetus to a stronger Elam and Mitanni states to create a buffer region to defend against nomadic incursions from the Steppe, Western Iranians would also be more willing to become part of an Elamite lead coalition if under such threat. That's just a scenario I came up with.


It seems there is no space for all those languages to fit, I was actually wondering if there was space for a Levantine Anatolian(IE) language in the iron age too...

I think this is a could scenario. Frankly, just maintaining the Mitanni and then diverting southern invasions northward or massed rebellions, should be enough to protect Akkadian and Hurrian. The next question is Elam. Elam relies upon the Bronze Age trade network of trading items in Mesopotamia and Iran eastward into Central Asia and then Central Asian items back forth into Mesopotamia. Massive amounts of gold for instance were in transit from Central Asia into Elam and thence into Mesopotamia, alongside a secondary source of strategic metals and bronze craftmanship. Likewise, it is the opinion, that many and I take, that Bronze usage in its most sophisticated sense was spread via Central Asian trade route, of which Elam was a major player beginning in the Early Bronze Age. This height of Elam made itself most expressed in the height of Elam and the height of the Bronze Age in the later Bronze Age, when Elam seems to have possibly been commanding a confederacy across Iran of allies and clients which was all lost with their wars with the Akkadian states to their west.

Anyway, Mitanni maintaining their hegemony over the region alongside weakening Egypt and Hatti should go a long way. Make sure that Mitanni manages to deter however the Elamites and that the Elamites remain facing east in terms of diplomacy or it at least is able to subdue Karduniash, without angering Mitanni.
 
This is a situation I'm envisioning by the iron age to give some space to the 3 languages while incorporating some late bronze age and early iron age migrations:

EVjBaMd.jpg
 

Capacity

Banned
The challenge is to have all those 3 language groups likely survive long term, let's say another millennia longer, as widely spoken languages in a given region, preferrably close to their OTL region.
A simple way. Lessen the impact of the Bronze Age Collapse in the Eastern Mediterranean. To do this, we need highly advanced Civilizations in Western Europe, which is stable, protected and very rich in land fertility.

If that happens, then the Eastern Mediterranean Civilizations and people could end up as a backup refuge protection and economic help from the then very rich, advanced and strong West, and can help support these empires and have them rebuild to their former glory.

Rich Western Europe built up by the natives there, giving rise to advanced civilizations is the key to almost everything exceptionally good that would need to happen in ATLs.
 
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