AHC: Industrial Revolution in Japan

Was it possible for the peoples of these East Asian islands inspired the monumental change in history first? PoD would be better during or after 13th Century, for my still abstract scenario actually.

(for where Dynastic China and a different Japan are having a Cold War.)
 
Was it possible for the peoples of these East Asian islands inspired the monumental change in history first? PoD would be better during or after 13th Century, for my still abstract scenario actually.

(for where Dynastic China and a different Japan are having a Cold War.)
Song Dynasty.
 
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I admit I have little concrete knowledge of her history, however maybe a earlier and stronger urbanization that have the largely rural demographic of the country changed---thus enlarging the pool of, and the concentration of, capital, creating a more powerful merchant class, gathering farmers who lost their lands to the construction of new factories as laborers, also with a Shogunate that were more open-minded and friendly to foreigners and merchants(who were traditionally considered as low class people) who allowed new ideas and beliefs to exchange (like the one during the era that had the nation absorbed Tang culture?).
 
Yes I guess you were indicating that small idea I also have in mind, where Song intellectuals and inventors already had the innovations but cannot realise it in their home for---probably---political reason but in Japan?

How about cultural reasons instead of political ones ?

An Invention originating in China:
The world's first known movable type system for printing was made of ceramic materials and created in China around A.D 1040 by Bi Sheng (990–1051) during the Northern Song Dynasty (960–1127). When this technology spread to Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty in 1234, they made the metal movable-type system for printing. This led to the printing of the Jikjisim Sutra in 1377, the oldest extant movable metal print book. The diffusion of both movable-type systems was, however, limited.
The reason it was not used to its full extend:

They were expensive, and required an enormous amount of labour involved in manipulating the thousands of ceramic tablets, or in the case of Korea, metal tablets, required for scripts based on the Chinese writing system, which have thousands of characters.
The uniquely Japanese solution and also a potential POD:

Kana (仮名) are syllabic Japanese scripts, a part of the Japanese writing system contrasted with the logographic Chinese characters known in Japan as kanji (漢字).
Source:
wikipedia
 
How about cultural reasons instead of political ones ?

Oh I see that's much easier to explain, as Japan was in fond of Chinese culture the whole time she might be pleasant to learn from her. But I think we can explore the possibilities for the political reasons: the Shogunate eager to achieve tech advancement for competition with other nations?(like China?) The Chinese war with Japanese and subdued the country to be a vassal, which brought the techs due to open borders?

An Invention originating in China:
The reason it was not used to its full extend:

The uniquely Japanese solution and also a potential POD:

Source:
wikipedia

These are gold.
 
How about cultural reasons instead of political ones ?

An Invention originating in China:

The world's first known movable type system for printing was made of ceramic materials and created in China around A.D 1040 by Bi Sheng (990–1051) during the Northern Song Dynasty (960–1127). When this technology spread to Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty in 1234, they made the metal movable-type system for printing. This led to the printing of the Jikjisim Sutra in 1377, the oldest extant movable metal print book. The diffusion of both movable-type systems was, however, limited.

This only makes it more likely that China or Korea would have first developed the systems further, as Japan generally adopted them decades or centuries later.

Also see below.

The reason it was not used to its full extend:

They were expensive, and required an enormous amount of labour involved in manipulating the thousands of ceramic tablets, or in the case of Korea, metal tablets, required for scripts based on the Chinese writing system, which have thousands of characters.

This was the biggest reason, but Hangul, a featural alphabet, had been invented by Sejong in 1443, which didn't exactly cause texts to be printed in the newer writing system.

The uniquely Japanese solution and also a potential POD:

Kana (仮名) are syllabic Japanese scripts, a part of the Japanese writing system contrasted with the logographic Chinese characters known in Japan as kanji (漢字).

This would essentially have been impossible for two major reasons.

The literati in both Japan and Korea solely used Chinese characters for official documents, despite the fact that rural people (primarily farmers and laborers) continued to use Kana and Hangul in local texts (primarily folk tales) for centuries. The latter systems never became widespread until the 20th century or so because aristocrats were extremely wary of abandoning a complex writing system that had been culturally ingrained, as adopting egalitarian systems would blur the distinction between the upper and lower classes.

Additionally, the Chinese characters themselves had become such a part of the Korean and Japanese language to the point that even native words were represented with the characters themselves. While this often made it difficult to tell whether a word should be pronounced in the native or Sino-Japanese/Korean versions, the general concept of the idea expressed within each character remained the same, albeit with different nuances. As a result, the complex relationship among these systems would have been broken had each "word/syllable" been written according to pronunciation, making the syllabary/alphabet even less receptive to the literati. Pronunciation was even worse for Japanese because its restrictive phonology led to a large amount of homonyms, which had been easily resolved with the nature of Chinese characters (closely mapped to meaning), not to mention the multiple pronunciations from Go'on, Kan'on, and Tō'on (On'yomi/Sino-Japanese) and Kun'yomi (Native Japanese) frequently mapped onto each Chinese character.

Meanwhile, Korean also had a similar system for centuries, as each character was pronounced according to the Sino-Korean or native forms (although there was generally only one Sino-Korean pronunciation for each character) through the Idu, Hyangchal, and Gugyeol systems until the late Joseon period. However, only the Sino-Korean readings remained by the 19th-20th centuries, possibly due to Hangul's influence, while homonyms were less of an issue (due to a larger phonemic inventory), which meant that although a mixed-script continued to be used throughout the 20th century, Chinese characters were phased out by the 1980s-90s (although it is still used in highly specialized cases).

In any case, Japanese still uses a mixture of Kanji and Kana for the reasons stated above.

Source:
wikipedia

Solely quoting a few minimal passages from Wikipedia doesn't provide the whole picture, as you can see above.

Oh I see that's much easier to explain, as Japan was in fond of Chinese culture the whole time she might be pleasant to learn from her. But I think we can explore the possibilities for the political reasons: the Shogunate eager to achieve tech advancement for competition with other nations?(like China?) The Chinese war with Japanese and subdued the country to be a vassal, which brought the techs due to open borders?

A war between China and Japan would require one of them either conquering or allying with Korea due to logistic reasons, as well as a ruler willing to entirely ignore the complex system of tributary relations that had existed for decades beforehand. Focusing on the 13th century and after, this occurred twice when the Mongols (nominally ruling a Chinese dynasty) attempted to use Korean and Chinese ships to invade Japan, and during the Imjin War when Hideyoshi invaded Korea in order to eventually "conquer" East, South, and Southeast Asia. However, had the wars been expanded, either could have severely devastated Japan (the latter involving a counter-invasion by China after a direct Japanese invasion), which would have severely delayed developments for at least several centuries after widespread destruction of arable land, forcing it to rely even more on China.

For a relative comparison, Korea was more developed than Japan on multiple levels (including a larger population) until the 13th century, but was devastated during the Mongol, Japanese, and Jurchen/Manchu invasions, each involving several million casualties, along with countless wokou raids (800+) along the Korean coastline from the 13th to 16th centuries, further limiting population growth. As a result, the population did not managed fully recover until the late 17th century, with an influx of cash crops post-16th century, as the population suddenly increased from around 6-8 million in the early 17th century to around 10-15 million by the 19th century or so (10-12 million by the 13th century).

Had the Imjin War been butterflied away (with a more diplomatic shogun), both China and Korea would have been much more focused on the northern frontier, potentially enabling them to gradually expand into Western and Eastern Manchuria, respectively, somewhat boosting population levels over the long run. However, this wouldn't have significantly affected society and technological innovations over the long run, as there would have been even less pressure to develop military technologies after the 17th century.

These are gold.

Not at all. See above.

For example?

By the late 15th century, various pressures had forced a handful of European countries to expand their trade routes to the east, south, and west, which fed into a collective cycle of innovations to make up for limited resources and a relatively small labor force. However, the Chinese market alone had dwarfed the collective European market for over a millennia, which meant that various entities across Central, East, and Southeast Asia collectively paid tribute in order to gain access to the large market. As a result, there were no significant pressures for China (as well as Japan and Korea) to continuously pursue technological innovations for centuries that would have collectively led to industrialization.
 
For example?

I am no expert in Industrial revolution, the following is what I remember from previous discussion about Industrial revolution. (Sorry that I forgot who took part in the discussion)

1. Excess population driven out of the fields by a revolution in farming methods (British Agricultural Revolution).
2. Huge and growing worldwide demand for time-consuming by-hand consumer goods (like textiles in OTL).
3. Economic revolution that allows accurate accounting of total value-added cost, labour, time, materials, etc (Morden capitalism or equivalent).
4. Large wealthy and independent middle class.
5. Good trade and transport infrastructure.
6. New and revolutionary breakthroughs in the fields of thermodynamics, mechanization, metallurgy, and mining technology.
7. Standardized measures.
8. Cheap printing and recording of knowledge, public education, and acceptance that advanced learning is actually useful for practical day-to-day concerns.

and other things.
Japan have some of them, but I don't know how to change so that they could obtain all these things.
 
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RousseauX

Donor
No, East Asia had always been overpopulated, there're never needs to develop labor saving machines.

You -need- an excess of population in order for industrialization to take place. Because industrial workers are non-food producers so you need a large enough producing population to feed them.
 
I am no expert in Industrial revolution, the following is what I remember from previous discussion about Industrial revolution. (Sorry that I forgot who took part in the discussion)

Japan have some of them, but I don't know how to change so that they could obtain all these things.

This is a good list. I would add the concept of patents is helpful even if not essential. Some of the first manufacturing processes in England were patented.
 

A very good, in depth analysis of problems the timeline might encounter. I still think however, that it is possible to find a way around these limitations.

Obviously, the Japanese elite don't seem to be good first adopters according to your description. Some alternate suggestions:

- An earlier "Oda Nobuaga" introduces the technology/writing system in his realm. You need someone in a postion of power who is visonary, willing and capable enough to break out of established conventions.

- The printing press is used to produce cheap, fast and changing texts. What kind of texts? Religious pamphlets. Some Buddhist (splinter?) sect recogonizes the advantage of the type printing press and spreads the technology. A potential benifit is that a religious connotation to the writing system makes the adoption by the elite easier.

- Dime novels. First they spread as cheap folk and woman entertainment for example "The Tale of Genji" and slowly find their way into the mainstream.

These are only some ideas, certainly with their own problems attached. But I am sure that it should be possible for something to succeed.
 
You -need- an excess of population in order for industrialization to take place. Because industrial workers are non-food producers so you need a large enough producing population to feed them.

Not really, you just need some kind of agricultural revolution to free up labor. Excessive populations or no. The British Agri Revolution for example did lead to the Industrial Revolution.
 
One essential problem I can think of is that Japan just lacks the raw material(e.g. coal and iron) necessary to start some kind of industrial revolution.
 
A very good, in depth analysis of problems the timeline might encounter. I still think however, that it is possible to find a way around these limitations.

Obviously, the Japanese elite don't seem to be good first adopters according to your description. Some alternate suggestions:

- An earlier "Oda Nobuaga" introduces the technology/writing system in his realm. You need someone in a postion of power who is visonary, willing and capable enough to break out of established conventions.

Given that this would essentially entail Japan completely ending its tributary relationship with China, this would have been virtually impossible, as not only did Chinese poetry and prose leave a lasting mark on Japanese literature, but Literary Chinese was also required as a lingua franca to communicate with China, Korea, the Ryūkyūs, and Vietnam. As a result, this would almost certainly require a more antagonistic approach, with a far more destructive analogue of the Imjin War, potentially including an invasion into Japan.

For a Korean comparison, Sejong was also a visionary that accomplished the conditions that you stated by creating an entire alphabet from scratch. However, he faced extreme opposition from the literati, not to mention that the writing system was temporarily banned after it was used to privately criticize a later monarch, somewhat curtailing its usage.

- The printing press is used to produce cheap, fast and changing texts. What kind of texts? Religious pamphlets. Some Buddhist (splinter?) sect recogonizes the advantage of the type printing press and spreads the technology. A potential benifit is that a religious connotation to the writing system makes the adoption by the elite easier.

Kana already had a religious context because it was heavily inspired by Indian scripts, such as Siddham, and was gradually developed over several centuries by Buddhist monks transcribing Buddhist texts through Man'yōgana, or shorthand versions of Chinese characters used solely to represent Japanese phonology. This was necessary because the sound of each syllable (in the original Indian scripts) was integral to the meaning, which was essentially the reverse of Chinese characters. Meanwhile, woodblock printing had already been in use within Japan since the 8th century, and had been used to print countless Buddhist texts, although the system's use was minimal because it was too expensive, not to mention that the texts themselves were used in a very restrictive religious context that was ill-fitted to aristocratic or common use. Almost a millennia later, while metal moveable type was introduced by Jesuit missionaries, as well as after the Imjin War through looting, they were also abandoned after 50 years in favor of woodblock printing.

In other words, given that mass-printed texts continued to be restricted to the upper class due to the significant costs involved, while Buddhist texts remained too niche for others' tastes, kanji would still have been necessary to convey highly specialized contexts that were generally out of reach of commoners, resulting in limited developments.

- Dime novels. First they spread as cheap folk and woman entertainment for example "The Tale of Genji" and slowly find their way into the mainstream.

Even "The Tale of Genji" utilized court writing that became obsolete within a century or so, resulting in the extensive use of annotations. While less restrictive versions would have been distributed among the commoners, popular texts were written by writers who were literate in Kanji, as Chinese concepts and characters were required to fully convey more complex ideas. The social classes also meant that texts by women utilizing hiragana were not read by the male audience, as they were generally judged to be less "refined."

On the other hand, while the use of Hangul in Korea had significantly less phonological restrictions, as mentioned earlier, social/economic factors, as well as the printing systems, were also subject to similar restrictions. This ultimately meant that similar to developments within Japan, Hangul was also mainly used by women and commoners for centuries.

These are only some ideas, certainly with their own problems attached. But I am sure that it should be possible for something to succeed.

Well, as I've shown above, your suggestions involve radical changes (cultural, social, etc.) that would have been virtually inconceivable when taken individually or as a whole.

The printing press alone also wouldn't have provided a significant impetus to jumpstart a Japanese industrial revolution by the 18th century or so, given numerous other cultural, social, economic, political, and military factors as well. The Meiji Restoration occurred because social/economic factors facilitated the transition to an industrialized society after introduction of foreign concepts, but it remains highly unlikely that butterflies stemming after the 13th century would have allowed Japan to pursue independent developments.
 

Mhmm, it looks like your right and the odds are just too bad. The only thing thing left would be a look at the other people inhabiting Japan.

Okinawan (沖縄口 / ウチナーグチ / Uchinaaguchi) Okinawan is a member of the Ryukuan language family spoken on Okinawa and a number of other Ryūkyū islands. From about the eary 13th century Okinawan started to be written with hiragana. Before then it is thought that the Ryukyu islanders were familiar with Chinese characters due to trade with China, Japan and Korea.
Hiragana proved popular and most texts were written exclusively in hiragana. However by the 16th century Okinawan was written with a mixture of kanji and hiragana. After Okinawa was taken over by the Satsuma clan 1609, the offical written language became Japanese and Kanbun, a variety of Classical Chinese. People continued to use Okinawan in local literature until the 19th century
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/okinawan.php

I am sure you find a way to pick this idea appart as well, but it was certainly enjoyable to brainstorm together :).
 
Mhmm, it looks like your right and the odds are just too bad. The only thing thing left would be a look at the other people inhabiting Japan.

Okinawan (沖縄口 / ウチナーグチ / Uchinaaguchi) Okinawan is a member of the Ryukuan language family spoken on Okinawa and a number of other Ryūkyū islands. From about the eary 13th century Okinawan started to be written with hiragana. Before then it is thought that the Ryukyu islanders were familiar with Chinese characters due to trade with China, Japan and Korea.
Hiragana proved popular and most texts were written exclusively in hiragana. However by the 16th century Okinawan was written with a mixture of kanji and hiragana. After Okinawa was taken over by the Satsuma clan 1609, the offical written language became Japanese and Kanbun, a variety of Classical Chinese. People continued to use Okinawan in local literature until the 19th century
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/okinawan.php

I am sure you find a way to pick this idea appart as well, but it was certainly enjoyable to brainstorm together :).

Sure, no problem. I didn't mind the discussion at all.

I just wanted to explain that the ingrained nature of Chinese culture and characters, as well as issues with printing, would have been virtually impossible to butterfly away. Regarding Okinawan, I would say that divergences wouldn't have made a significant difference either because the chain of islands would have had even less resources than Japan to develop expensive metal type or printing presses gradually over time, not to mention Chinese characters' significant influence on the language for around a millennia as well.
 
My help:
I found probably why Japan took til the 19th Century: nerchants were at the bottom of the feudal hierarchy, followed by artisans also after peasants, also a problem. Either it'd have to be before feudalism or you need to fix that.

My suggestion is to get to have their own early scientific Revolution after they fix their money problem. The earlier the better. Then do a democratic monarchy like today. Democracy's needed for not stifling thought. Japan seems suited for that, because they've only had one coup, Tojo's.

Greece and India had had them at 400 BCE, so early can be done. Why
Greece had the first trial steam engine in the 1st century, but came in Nero's empire. Democracy's been independently after scientific revolutions at least three times. -

If you figure out how to can them a copy of Hero of Alexandria's work, it'd take probably a century and a half like Britain. Otherwise 4-5 centuries.

They'd long, long had the agriculture they needed from China.

Resources come far trade, probably our first human invention. Unless you have a Tokugawa inTL.
 
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