AHC - Independent Northern Italy/Great Lombardy

[Višeslav]

The premise here is simple. With a POD after 1250, without changing the ethnic composition of the region, keep northern Italy an independent, unified state into the modern era.

You are allowed to develop a separate cultural identity if it's plausible, but you can't just have some other ethnic group migrate there.

You can do whatever you want with southern Italy, just no ASB, keep it realistic.

Basic challenge: Italy north of the papal states (with per-wwi borders, so without South Tyrol), excluding Venice

Bonus points for:

• Having Nice &/or Savoy
• Having the Romagna
• Having ethnic Italian regions of OTL Switzerland
• Having Monaco
  
• Having Istria
• Lasting until today

Maximum acceptable extent:
The bonus regions + Venice & South Tyrol

For reference, this is more or less the maximum extent of "Northern Italy".

Image credit: Great Lombardy Movement website.
I don't necessarily condone (or rally know) their Ideas, I just found it while looking for maps of Northern Italy, and it was a pretty good image.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Would be wealthy and challenging the Imperial Authority. A unity in command will also be challenging to the French. One of the wealthiest states in Europe.

But my opinion is... garbage. It must have Tuscany as well as the Papal States. It would look so much better.

 

[Višeslav]

It must have Tuscany as well as the Papal States. It would look so much better.

That just ends up being an independent Naples TL, but thanks for the input.

But my opinion is... garbage.

Do you mean your opinion is garbage or that the challenge is garbage?

And if you mean the challenge, how serious are you, and what (other than what you've already mentioned) do you think should change?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

That just ends up being an independent Naples TL, but thanks for the input.



Do you mean your opinion is garbage or that the challenge is garbage?

And if you mean the challenge, how serious are you, and what (other than what you've already mentioned) do you think should change?

The borders, they are garbage (my honest opinion, no trolling intended). The challenge is easy. Either some powerful ruler such as the King of France or the German Emperor takes it and gives it to a son/brother when the ruler dies so the region is directly put under control of one ruler. it is united. Or... an ambitious ruler gobbles up the small states one by one over a long period of time. Either due to marriage or out right taking over.

 

[Atterdag]

Question: Where did you find that map?

 

[Višeslav]

Question: Where did you find that map?

There's a link in the original post.

It's from the website of the "Great Lombardy" movement. They're a weird right-wing political movement, but they have a lot of very nice maps on their website (all variations of this one).

Here's a link

 

[Analytical Engine]

Simplest solution IMO - alternate French Revolution leads to a Padanian or Lombardic Republic, which eventually achieves those borders.

 

[Višeslav]

Simplest solution IMO - alternate French Revolution leads to a Padanian or Lombardic Republic, which eventually achieves those borders.

How long do you think this could last? would it get integrated into Italy later?

The challenge is easy. Either some powerful ruler such as the King of France or the German Emperor takes it and gives it to a son/brother when the ruler dies so the region is directly put under control of one ruler. it is united. Or... an ambitious ruler gobbles up the small states one by one over a long period of time. Either due to marriage or out right taking over.

How would this state survive?

 

[Analytical Engine]

How long do you think this could last? would it get integrated into Italy later?

The unification of Italy was hardly inevitable. As long as, say, Austria, doesn't go for an irredentist war, it could survive. Northern Italy is the most developed part of Italy, after all, so it could do fairly well.

 

[Višeslav]

The unification of Italy was hardly inevitable. As long as, say, Austria, doesn't go for an irredentist war, it could survive. Northern Italy is the most developed part of Italy, after all, so it could do fairly well.

Fair point.

How would this play out for the south? The papal states?

Could such a large theocracy survive? Would Italian colonialism be undertaken by Naples instead, or were they too poor to try something like that? Would the south unite, or would a sort of "central Italian" (Roman/Papal) national Identity develop?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Fair point.

How would this play out for the south? The papal states?

Could such a large theocracy survive? Would Italian colonialism be undertaken by Naples instead, or were they too poor to try something like that? Would the south unite, or would a sort of "central Italian" (Roman/Papal) national Identity develop?

The pope will feel threatened as the North is unified but still has the South to use it agains the North or vice versa. A possible invasion by the Holy Roman Emperor and/or French King if the Pope feels threatened.

 

[JackLumber]

Needs more north italy and less south tyrol

 

[ramones1986]

But what could be the official language (or at least the lingua franca)?

 

[Analytical Engine]

But what could be the official language (or at least the lingua franca)?

Probably something standardised on a Gallo-Italian dialect. Maybe Piedmontese or (more likely) Lombard.

 

[B_Munro]

Or... an ambitious ruler gobbles up the small states one by one over a long period of time. Either due to marriage or out right taking over.

The Visconti often get mentioned as a possible contender.

https://pages.uoregon.edu/mapplace/EU/EU19 - Italy/Italy revised.html

Of course, the Papacy will be throwing knives every time they turn their backs.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The Visconti often get mentioned as a possible contender.

https://pages.uoregon.edu/mapplace/EU/EU19 - Italy/Italy revised.html

Of course, the Papacy will be throwing knives every time they turn their backs.

I'd wonder what this state would do as a unified Lombardian State when Mehmed II invades and conquers Rome but retreats from his untimely death. Papacy gets reestabelished as it was or reduced or not estabelished at all. The vacuum abandoned in Italy would be the time to have a unified Italy. In some ways...

 

[JorgeGG]

I'd wonder what this state would do as a unified Lombardian State when Mehmed II invades and conquers Rome but retreats from his untimely death. Papacy gets reestabelished as it was or reduced or not estabelished at all. The vacuum abandoned in Italy would be the time to have a unified Italy. In some ways...

... Which is another timeline

How about an expanding Kingdom of Savoy??

or another adventurous Norman. If they made themselves rulers of Scilly why not a try at the northern end. (tought, it sound too ASB)

 

[kasumigenx]

Actually, Catherine Michelle of Savoy has the former French claims to Milan and claims to the Duchy of Brittany after her sister died.