AH Recurring Tropes, and the timelines that avert or subvert them

It probably says something that a medieval independent Wales TL jumps to my mind before any independent Ireland does.
Probably.

I don't know if Wales is doomed to be conquered, but from what I know of history (as opposed to this site) it seems less likely to stay independent than Ireland with a POD between - say - 1000-1200 or so.

I'm not sure I can think of any examples of "Ireland united and independent" that aren't specifically about a united, independent Ireland though.
 
It was the first the came to mind. I want to know what other convergent borders you have in mind (e.g. post-colonial African borders).
It reminds me of some boundaries that almost never change so much in general. For example a country corresponding to the Brazilian OTL coastline will almost always get the Amazon. Or Siberia (and the rest of North Asia) is always included in a single political power, often Russia
It is difficult to imagine other borders when one is even used to seeing the same ones.
 
It probably says something that a medieval independent Wales TL jumps to my mind before any independent Ireland does.
Oh, the Glyndwr Rebellion timeline? Yeah, it really says something that even Ireland inside that timeline plays second fiddle and went through some rough patches.

For another recurring AH Trope (though one that is thankfully decreasing more now than then): the complete willingness for Maritime Southeast Asia to become a unified blob, especially under an uber-Indonesia.

No, just... no. The whole region is so complex, the regional map can change a lot depending on the circumstances. Even in OTL, the Malay archipelago was mind-bendingly diverse, socially and politically: Aceh and Riau-Lingga were heavily influenced by the Ottoman Empire, northern Borneo had colonization attempts by the U.S and Austria-Hungary, the Ambonese of the Dutch Indies were strongly beholden to the Dutch Crown, and Johor had visits by royalty from Hawaii!

Part of the reason I wrote my own TL is to explore these threads, after years of waiting for someone else to expand the POD's.
 
Oh, the Glyndwr Rebellion timeline? Yeah, it really says something that even Ireland inside that timeline plays second fiddle and went through some rough patches.

For another recurring AH Trope (though one that is thankfully decreasing more now than then): the complete willingness for Maritime Southeast Asia to become a unified blob, especially under an uber-Indonesia.

No, just... no. The whole region is so complex, the regional map can change a lot depending on the circumstances. Even in OTL, the Malay archipelago was mind-bendingly diverse, socially and politically: Aceh and Riau-Lingga were heavily influenced by the Ottoman Empire, northern Borneo had colonization attempts by the U.S and Austria-Hungary, the Ambonese of the Dutch Indies were strongly beholden to the Dutch Crown, and Johor had visits by royalty from Hawaii!

Part of the reason I wrote my own TL is to explore these threads, after years of waiting for someone else to expand the POD's.
Yeah the fact that Indonesia with the Papuans, Sumatrans, Aceh, Borneans, etc manages to remain moderately stable is outstanding.
 
Speaking of Southeast Asia, my country is a lot like Ireland in that we end up being Permanently Under Colonial Control. If not Spain, it's the US, Germany, or Japan.
 
Another recurring misconception is that a chronology centered on an ideology, a country etc... will inevitably benefit it to the end (or will target it completely). For example if in the title there is "Henry VIII Remains Catholic" it necessarily implies a Catholic England until nowadays.
 
People keep on trying to link the Philippines to China when the primary cultural influence there was Sumatera and India or in the case of Luzon there was Javanese influence there for a certain time during the Prehispanic times.
 
People keep on trying to link the Philippines to China when the primary cultural influence there was Sumatera and India or in the case of Luzon there was Javanese influence there for a certain time during the Prehispanic times.
Well many northern Filipino states were vassals of the Ming Dynasty so it's not farfetched at all.
 
Corollary to Punching Bag Spain: the Philippines are treated as an afterthought in most TLs (not unlike Latin America, come to think of it) and they just change colonial masters during the 19th century during the Inevitable Disintegration of the Spanish Empire. Like can we see it go independent earlier once?
I don't know if I'm playing into that corollary, but I'm going for no Spanish colonization of the Philippines, and instead it would slowly but surely be Japan, although this is in the 1570's and I'm intending for a hodge-poge of cultures to arise and maybe an an independent confederation down the line.

At the risk of horrible self-advertising, my timeline A Storm Over Okehazama looks at different unifier of Sengoku Japan. The usual suspects assuming one just does not go with the OTL Tokugawa or long lasting Toyotomi, are either the Oda, or maybe the Takeda, as unlikely as that may be. I went with Imagawa Yoshimoto, surviving Okehazama. Although I also seek to avert tropes common to the Sengoku era, by trying to strip away the romanticism of the period, and working with a different political situation than the OTL Oda. Also there was a timeline called Rise of the Samurai Hound that went with an Azai Japan instead.

Mind you I also want to avert the idea of an 'open' Japan being a few steps away from a super or regional power of East Asia. An open Japan still has the issues of it being a feudal system with little in the way of a strong central government. Right not things are fine, but that is not going to be the case.
 
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For another recurring AH Trope (though one that is thankfully decreasing more now than then): the complete willingness for Maritime Southeast Asia to become a unified blob, especially under an uber-Indonesia.

No, just... no. The whole region is so complex, the regional map can change a lot depending on the circumstances. Even in OTL, the Malay archipelago was mind-bendingly diverse, socially and politically: Aceh and Riau-Lingga were heavily influenced by the Ottoman Empire, northern Borneo had colonization attempts by the U.S and Austria-Hungary, the Ambonese of the Dutch Indies were strongly beholden to the Dutch Crown, and Johor had visits by royalty from Hawaii!
Don't forget how Indonesia since independence has to deal with secessionist headaches (like Aceh, the Moluccas, and West Papua) along with how Indonesia is wider than Europe.
 
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Well many northern Filipino states were vassals of the Ming Dynasty so it's not farfetched at all.

Actually, the Kingdom of Tondo article have no credible sources, so there were no close links between Luzon and China, but Luzon/Selurong is included Negarakertagama.

This is NOT a flaw. The peer reviewed academic sources in the field don't explicitly say this, so that information is speculative. Adding that here would be a gross violation of Wikipedia rules, as stated in WP:Verifiability and WP:No Original Research.- Alternativity (talk) 07:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll be removing citations about Rajah Alon because of the absence of peer-reviewed sources about him. I suggest Theseeker2016 and Jim1138 to stop undoing the removal of dubious content. This Wikipedia article is a mess and it is our job to present an article that is backed up by academic peer-reviewed sources and not blogs written anonymously nor books that cited Wikipedia itself. Stricnina (talk) 05:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm playing into that corollary, but I'm going for no Spanish colonization of the Philippines, and instead it would slowly but surely be Japan, although this is in the 1570's and I'm intending for a hodge-poge of cultures to arise and maybe an an independent confederation down the line.
I think Luzon could have easily united under a Hindu state, especially if they are sponsored or become a puppet state by a foreign power similar to what Tang did to Silla but against the Bruneians who are occupying the southern half of the Island, they could be used as a buffer state or puppet state later on.
 
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I would like to see an America that never performs the Mexican-American War still claim the west as much as possible via peaceful means. The Louisiana Purchase and Oregon Treaty were peaceful, the Transcontinental Treaty saw a proposed border of the (Texas-)Colorado River-follow to source (at 103rd meridian/OTL Texas west border) then straight north to the Canadian River-flow to the Sangre de Cristo- follow to the Rockies, and there were a couple 1830s proposals to buy the land north of the Rio Grande thence to the 37th parallel thence west to the Pacific. At that rate America has mostly unacquired only western New Mexico, Arizona, Las Vegas, and SoCal.

One can still have a superpower America, fairly recognizable to OTL, without it having to conquer every damn thing it sees.
 
There's also the fact that due to changes in political and philosophical thought, geopolitics in Malê Rising go away from the typical nation-state paradigm and more towards supranational institutions. And the TL is very Afro-centric, which alone should make it very distinct from the Euro- or Amero-centrism typical in TLs here.

Corollary to Punching Bag Spain: the Philippines are treated as an afterthought in most TLs (not unlike Latin America, come to think of it) and they just change colonial masters during the 19th century during the Inevitable Disintegration of the Spanish Empire. Like can we see it go independent earlier once?
Tooting my own horn here, but in my timeline, the Philippines is given independence by the United States in 1901
Kind of a minor thing, but Southern/slaveholding secessionists from the US always come up with the name "Confederate States of America". They never pick a different word out of the thesaurus, always "confederate".
In two of my timelines, I have the south seceding from the United States under a different name. In my Glory timeline (not that it's very good) the four southern states form the Federated States of America in 1864. In my triumphant timeline, the south is known as the union of southern republics.

Oh, as for a communist confederacy timeline, there's one by @thekingsguard
 
It's not a famous trope but it's asked that what if the crusaders won at nicopolis moat assume that Serbia and bulgaria would be free for some time but ultimately this just slows down the Ottomans nothing more
Well I say they could win nicpolis and weaken the Ottomans and timur shows up when he did destroys the Ottomans in Anatolia seguismund launches a new crusade and like the otl stephan breaks of from ottoman rule pretty much the ottoman empire collapses , since timur has restored the bayliks in Anatolia leads to a mameluk push north or the Aq Qoyunlu conquering it so a massive" persian "wank instead of a byzantine takes over of Asia Minor thar is usually related to timur destroying the Ottomans .
 
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Actually, the Kingdom of Tondo article have no credible sources, so there were no close links between Luzon and China, but Luzon/Selurong is included Negarakertagama.







I think Luzon could have easily united under a Hindu state, especially if they are sponsored or become a puppet state by a foreign power similar to what Tang did to Silla but against the Bruneians who are occupying the southern half of the Island, they could be used as a buffer state or puppet state later on.
Wait, so whats your take on this map?

Philippines.png

Orange: The State of Pangasinan ruled by Lord Lin Feng
Red-Brown: the Kingdom of Tondo ruled by Batan Dula
Light Yellow: Rajah of Maynila ruled by Rajah Sulayman
Light Purple: Sultanate of Brunei ruled by Saiful Rijal Bolkiah
Green: Confederacy of Madvas
Salmon: Cebu ruled by Rajah Bantug II
Cream: Maguindanao ruled Sultan Bangkaya
Light Brown: Sultanate of Lanao
Teal: Rajahnate of Butuan
Dark Orange: Sultanate of Sulu ruled by Sultan Muhammad ul-Halim Hashemite

"Well, as far states go there wasn't much I could find without going into speculation. The rulers of Cebu and Tondo are speculative, Batan is at least a son of Bunao, also known as Lakan Dula, with Cebu I'm using the name of a prior ruler because I have no idea if this person has children or what names I could use. "

I used this in my TL, where things go south, and the Spanish do not colonize the Philippines, what exactly would you make of this map, in terms of an attempt at accuracy? I'm not exactly aware of too many powers in the north of Luzon Island, but this region isn't my strong suit nor could I find easily readable sources in English, when it's my only language.
 
For example a country corresponding to the Brazilian OTL coastline will almost always get the Amazon.
As a brazilian this always get me on because geographically speaking there's no sense in a country with the brazilian coastline (including Brazil) even passing beyond the coastline, the coastline is a tropical mild forest, past that you have a steppe-but-more-arid (Cerrado) with a damn mountain range separating it, while past the steppe then you have the Amazon, which is a tropical equatorial forest nearly unreachable by land in pre-contemporary standards. Even IOTL the portuguese colonization of the Amazon was a separate thing from the colonization of the rest of Brazil, and it was actually its own colony until mid-late in the colonial period.
Another recurring misconception is that a chronology centered on an ideology, a country etc... will inevitably benefit it to the end (or will target it completely). For example if in the title there is "Henry VIII Remains Catholic" it necessarily implies a Catholic England until nowadays.
Don't wanting to self-promote but doing it anyway, i expect to avert this trope in Vive Les Marquis, even though France until now is doing great, the next chapter (which i'm currently working in) will present the first real challenge to its hegemony, i think it's really a bit off the fact that sometimes only because something starts good it necessarily will continue good, i honestly prefer stories when the reader is offered a gradual transformation from worse to better in a way where when you reach the "better" you can really feel it naturally by reading.

Some tropes that annoy me greatly are the "inevitable force of nationalism" once you reach the 19th century, independently of any local circumstances that IOTL resulted in the triumph of nationalism being averted directly or indirectly in the ATL, people forget that nationalism wasn't near to be universal, this especially concerning Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire. Somewhat related is the lack of multicultural polities, in the sense that the polity itself is an integration of the cultures it conquers, independently if clearly there's a "dominant" culture (or if there's not), since these happened to form quite constantly IOTL, i at least happen to see the "dominant" culture over-emphasized what leads to the other cultures who happen to be similarly integrated being forgotten. At last i'm pretty annoyed by the "nomad go conquered" trope once firearms start to be used, i mean, yeah the sedentarians gained some sort of advantage but it wasn't as lopsided (or as inevitable!) as people make it be, for example, the Tatar Khanates were hardly inevitably going to be conquered by russian polities, even if Russia itself is united, IOTL they put up a significant fight well into the age of gunpowder (in the case of Kazan using gunpowder themselves) and it was a pretty near-run thing, IMO you get that lopsided vision from the mid-to-late 18th century, when the Crimean Khanate had two giant armies vanished in the defensive by a much lesser numbered russian army, even though like, 40-50 years before the crimeans were defeating larger russian armies during the crimean and azov campaigns of the Great Turkish War.
 
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