A Time of Apprehension - The 1940s

Grey Wolf

Donor
A Time of Apprehension - The 1940s

This thread is for the 1940s period of the Central Powers Victory timeline that began with

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=88209
The Restless Twenties

and continued with

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=89160
The Terrible Thirties

Since I was already on 25 or 26 pages for the latter, I decided that a new thread made sense. With the links here in the first post, anyone who wants to check back on anything should be able just to jump there and read up on everything.

I will make the first post here a bit of an overview so that people get something of the sense of the world if they come to this new, then can check on the previous two threads to get all the details.

I also hope to be able to post Hnau's map in one of the first couple of posts as well so as to give a visual impression for everyone


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Overview

It is 1940, three years and some months since the end of the Second World War and three years into the term of President Vandenberg in the White House. Kaiser Wilhelm III reigns within Germany, the Reichstag dominated by a coalition of Conservative elements under the Chancellor, Furst Bismarck.

In London, King Edward VIII is in the middle of his third year of Personal Rule, his Advisory Council having bedded in, and apart from the dispatch of the Duke of Devonshire to Colombo being pretty much the same as it was when created in the Summer of 1937. Everyone has now got used to life without a Prime Minister, not least Herbert Morrison, the last Prime Minister who has settled in well as Foreign Minister for the king. Those who have not accepted this state of affairs are largely in prison, the unitary SIS having a free run against dissidents. The quasi-military National Guard is a great success, its youth wing popular amongst many sections of society and its veteran services providing much-needed and much-appreciated assistance to disabled and elderly ex-servicemen

In Paris, King Jean III's government has made a success of the post-war reconciliation. Even ex-Bonapartists on parole are largely abiding by the terms of the agreement, whilst German and Canadian interest has ensured that his own government abide by the terms of peace with the Socialists, and with the autonomous province of Bearn. North Africa has been completely pacified, and from Algiers the Governor rules over a unitary colonial authority that includes Tunis. The French Navy has begun to rebuild, and the first batleships in a generation are well under way at navy yards around the country.

Spain remains wracked by civil war. The Franco-German Expeditionary Force, for half a year now under the command of Generalfeldmarschal Erwin Rommel is besieging the Socialists last line of defence at Valladolid. With jet fighters of the new Heinkel design ensuring command of the air, and the new Tiger II tank proving itself in an urban environment, the Germans are spearheading an army to which King Juan, still in the South, has committed his best troops. Spring 1940 will clearly bring decisive events - either Rommel will break through, and probably split in two the land still held by the Socialist regime based in La Corunna, or he will be repulsed and the Socialists will be able to claim a much-needed victory. Few who are in the know are betting on the latter possibility, though

In Italy, King Umberto II's Personal Rule is having many more teething problems than Edward VIII's, but with SIS advisors seconded to his court he is beginning to establish a truly national network. The civil war in Sicily is steadily being won, and whilst the loss of Libya, coming on top of the loss of Italy's East African possessions, hurts, it is seen as something of a blessing in disguise. Cordial relations with Kaiser Karl's federal government in Vienna ensure that Italy remains free of worries in the North, whilst the British presence in the central Mediterranean has been much scaled down since Malta was awarded the status of a self-governing dominion. The new US battle squadron is something of an enigma, but apart from steam between Tripoli and Benghazi it has done little of note.

From Cairo, King Fuad can look at an unbroken chain of successes. From Egyptian incorporation of the Sudan to a complete break with Britain in the wake of their global defeat in late 1936, he has led the country to the annexation of Massawa in Northern Eritrea, and to the establishment of a friendly Libyan kingdom on their Western border. The Darfur rebellion has been put down, and whilst worrying at the time, the suppression of it further enhances the reputation of the king. Even more, the diplomatic dealings with the United States that led to the latter's involvement in Libya have also borne fruit as Egypt not only has international guarantees of its borders, but a warm relationship with Washington

Kaiser Karl's Quadruple Monarchy has weathered its first international crisis and the role that Vienna played in both the Italian and the Libyan crises has established for many that the federal system can work beyond the sub-national level. Many people who had written Austria off, or had completely forgotten that there was such a power in Europe, have now re-evaluated their stance.

US aid to the Socialist Republic of Greece, whilst low level has nevertheless helped to ease the chronic poverty in the country, and to make the lives of some hundreds of thousands of people more bearable. Athens remains isolated within Europe, but the nature of its armed forces, starved of funds and with archaic equipment, makes this an isolation that all of its neighbours can happily live with

Tsar Ferdinand's Bulgaria has led a peaceful existence since victory in 1918. An astute politician, the 79-year-old monarch has maintained a firm grip on the government by clever rotation of cabinet positions, and his personal star, never higher than with the annexation of Salonika, has never waned. Bulgaria maintains a powerful, if traditional army, focused on motorised infantry and artillery in the main. Its navy has nothing larger than a few cruisers, constructed at the Ottoman yard at Izmit during the early 1930s, but it is in the airforce that Bulgaria really shines. The pet project of Crown Prince Boris, the Bulgarian airforce is second only in Europe to that of the German Empire. Its home-grown designs are often idiosyncratic, but have proved to work, whilst exports to Ukraine, the Ottoman Empire and Egypt have proved highly successful

The Ottoman Empire has taken a largely neutralist position since the end of the Great War. With the annexation of ex-Russian Armenia and Azerbaijan, and the suppression of Ibn Saud in Arabia, Istanbul has focused its attention on internal improvements, and on the development of its substantial oil fields. An increasingly rich nation, the Ottoman Empire only ventures into international politics when it feels its interests threatened. Although it made no official protest during the German occupation of Persia, it remains keenly aware of developments in Tehehran, and the acquisition of Britain's 1/3 interest in Persia's oil companies has given it increased say at the court of the Shah. Concerned at Russia's Indian adventure, the Ottoman Empire backed German moves to offer support to the overthrown Afghan king in Herat, but remained always one step removed from the action. Whilst German jets overflew Russian positions and ensured that Moscow was well aware that Herat's survival was non-negotiable, the Ottoman Empire remained in the shadows, powerful but largely unseen

Eastern Europe since the Great War has been one of the most stable areas in the world. From King Carol II's Rumania, to the kingdom of Finland in the North, from Poland and Lithuania across the Ukraine the area remains strongly within Germany's orbit, with German airforce bases dotting the countryside, but prosperous in Germany's shadow. Uninvolved in any direct way in the Second World War, the Eastern bloc was able to manufacture armaments for Germany, sell all kinds of commodities to their allies in both Berlin and Moscow, and come out of the conflict with a positive balance.

In Moscow, Tsar Vladimir has increasingly moved away from Berlin with the conclusion of the Second World War. Gaining nothing directly from the conflict, and seeing their former enemies in Japan come out ahead, Russia has broken free of many of the shackles that bound her during the civil war and restoration period after in the decade and a half after 1918. With German forces inside her territory greatly reduced in number, and bound by tight treaties, Russia has freed herself at last from reliance upon German advisors, German industries and German support. Operating an entirely independent foreign policy in India, Russia is finding that her actions impact greatly on the global level. An alliance with Nehru's nascent Confederation has seen Russian forces in action from Lahore to Bengal, and though many fear that they will get bogged down in the latter conflict, Tsar Vladimir is certain that a close relationship with Delhi is the best way for Russia to establish the necessary freedom of action to escape the clutches of Germany in the West and Japan in the East

Tokyo is increasingly glad of the alliance of convenience with Berlin that it contracted at the end of the Second World War. In terms of immediate gains, Eastern New Guinea, the Solomons, East Timor and a protectorate over ex-French IndoChina were valuable additions. Strategically, the alliance has freed Japan from having to worry about the security of its allies in Mongolia and the Far Eastern Republic, as Russia cannot renew the war without finding herself attacked by Germany in response, and Tsar Vladimir is too clever a strategist to go down that road. Japanese support for the newly independent Kingdom of Burmah signalled her interest in Indian affairs, but the involvement of both Russia and the United States has confused matters. Russian involvement in Bengal provides an opportunity and a worry to Tokyo and Japan agrees to Berlin's proposal to go halfway towards supporting the Bengalis, but refrain from recognising their independence. Thus, Japan straddles two fences as it supports a Burmah which not only recognises Dacca but provides it with weapons and supplies. Knowledge that Russia cannot risk war with either Japan or Germany, emboldens Tokyo to continue to interfere in the region, but confusion over the US position continues to grow

The Republic of China prospered happily through its neutrality during the Second World War and though it remains close and friendly to Japan, it guards its neutrality carefully. Although its naval and aerial forces have grown in recent times, and Chinese yards have constructed a dozen heavy cruisers for home defence, China knows that it is no match for a great power in any serious military conflict. The best it could hope for would be to bloodily defend the frontier and withdraw into the interior, but such thinking is at the extreme limit of Peking's planners. Production under license of many Japanese aircraft during the war gave Chinese aviation a boost, and like Bulgaria it is now able to produce large numbers of highly capable home-grown designs. The export market for these include both Mongolia and the FER in the North, as well as Siam and even the Dutch East Indies in the South.

The Netherlands remained neutral in both world wars and saw its possessions remain stable. Having purchased the ex-Salamis in 1918-1919 and adding several heavy cruisers in the early 1920s it established a powerful presence in the East Indies. The 1930s saw this augmented by new fast battleships constructed in Germany, and after the sale of a pair of older heavy cruisers to France, a new class of such vessels built in Dutch yards. Based at Surubaya, this force presents a sizeable deterrent

Belgium emerged from the Great War minus its Luxembourg province and a large bite out of the Congo, the South of the Province Orientale that a victorious Germany added to Tanganyika. In the two decades since then Belgium has clung to a complete independence and has been the venue for important international negotiations on a number of occasions. King Leopold III reigns as a fully constitutional monarch and is a popular figure with the populace

Portugal, defeated in the Second World War was nevertheless able to make a reasonable peace owing to German concentration on the invasion of Britani with Operation Adler. Although the remains of Mozambique was lost, split between German East Africa and the newly-independent United States of South Africa, the rest of the Portuguese empire received guarantees, with the noticeable exception of East Timor which was seized by Japan with nothing that King Manoel II's government could do. Since the war, Portugal has concentrated on rebuilding and has seen a national consensus develop that international entanglements are a thing of the past

The USSA continues to work through its massive territorial enhancement. Although the threatened Loyalist uprising in several areas did not actually happen, the absorption of so much territory, especially under a new federal constitution, takes a lot of working out.

The Federal Republic of Canada on the other hand has done nothing but prosper since its declaration of independence in late 1936. With closening ties to the United States and the further development of its excellent indigineous armaments industry, Canada pulls even further away from its European roots. With experience across France during the Second World War, its armoured vehicles, and especially its tanks, proved battle-hardened and battle-tested and the designs have been purchased by the US War Department, keen to update US army units with materiele known to work. Several Canadian aircraft projects also attract US attention and are bought in some significant numbers also

With an election year upon them, the Republican administration of President Vandenberg is keen to continue the policy of close engagement it has developed. Whilst never committing to alliances, and not looking to use any American forces to support the native regimes, the US has established good relations with some of the world's new states including Nehru's Indian Confederation and the Kingdom of Libya. US money has worked wonders diplomatically in the Horn of Africa as well as in Libya and in Greece, and Secretary of State Herbert Hoover is the most-travelled sexagenarian in the world

India remains the one main area, apart from Spain, where the final post-WW2 settlement has yet to be worked out,. From Delhi, Nehru's Confederation appears to have control of much of the recently contested territory with Kashmir and Lahore now firmly under his control. But the independence of Baluchistan/Kalat, Hyderabad and Burmah, and British resumption of rule in Ceylon have diminished the area that Indian Nationalists hoped to control, whilst the bloody war in Bengal is threatening to split the fragile Hindu-Muslim alliance within the Indian National Congress apart.

As 1940 dawns, the Bengal war is the main item in the news from Washington to Moscow, from Berlin to Tokyo. With Russian ground and aerial forces fully involved in support of the Indian Confederation, but with Germany and Japan talking up the nationalist administration in Dacca, international tensions are at a high. The US naval squadron at Madras is on high alert, though the media scaremongering over the danger of war with the two empires is dismissed as rubbish at the highest levels in Washington


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I like this TL a lot, but by gum you don't half like monarchy a fair bit.

Well, one thing to note is that pre-1918 most of the world was composed of monarchies (OK apart from the Americas !). The Central Powers defeat in OTL destroyed three, whilst Allied victory destroyed one (Montenegro was basically allowed to be annexed by Serbia). The difficulties of the 1920s and 1930s destabilised others.

In this timeline I see things taking something of an opposite tack. Since the victorious monarchies emerged from the Great War more or less victorious, and since their 1918 plans for new monarchies (Lithuania, Finland) are thus fulfilled, plus the psuedo-monarchy of the Hetmanate, a strong monarchy could well look a better bet for a nation's health than a weakened democracy

Thus, with the French Republic going down the pan in the late 1920s, the obvious alternatives are monarchies.

Another note is that post-independence a lot of states in OTL WERE monarchies (Libya, Tunisia, Cambodia, Laos etc). Even Hyderabad gave it a go in OTL trying to retain independence post-1938

With the Second World War in this timeline, the empires have again emerged victorious. The reinstallation of a strong central executive comes to be seen as the best way to stabilise a nation and lead it to recovery, and the event sof this timeline seem to be showing that a king is better than trusting to a president - hence restorations in Russia, France etc and the personal rule in Britain and Italy (note that these in a sense shadow the personal rule of some of the Balkan kingdoms of OTL)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
1940

It is an election year in the USA and the primaries begin. With Vandenberg the incumbent running again, little attention is paid to the Republicans, but a lot to the Democrats and not a little to the Socialists.

Three main Democratic contenders emerge - Henry S Breckinridge, Henry Wallace and Franklin D Roosevelt, aiming to become like Grover Cleveland and only the second president to serve non-consecutive terms. FDR argues that the world is much different from 1936 and that events in the last few years have proved him right about the German menace. He cites London and Rome as anti-democratic offshoots of German policy, and the crisis in India as being the clash of empire with democracy. FDR lauds Nehru and calls for increased American support for the Indian Confederation

Breckinridge and Wallace play their campaigns differently, the former almost seeming to ape the Republicans, whilst Wallace talks about democracy under threat, in Spain, in Greece, in Bearn. The French ambassador vehemently protests the inclusion of the latter in his campaign speeches, but Vandenberg can do nothing but smile contritely and remind the French noble that even the president's enemies have freedom of speech in the USA

-- -- --

Burmese efforts to transport material across Assam, rather than rely on the joint Burmese-Bengali border in the South, run into serious trouble when Indian paramilitary units intercept a major convoy and destroy it. These units, locally-formed but loyal to Nehru in Delhi, begin to co-operate with the Russians from out of Calcutta, and pose a major headache to Rangoon

The Japanese 18"-gunned battleships from Rangoon begin to patrol the mouths of the Ganges, ensuring that pro-Bengali supplies get into the area and that anti-Bengali forces can receive nothing by sea. From Calcutta, Indian elements begin to plot a campaign to deny Japan control of the sea, gathering motor boats, old submarines and some armed trawlers to a new command

Russia continues its build up of forces at Calcutta, the peculiar physuical characteristics of lower Bengal forcing them to create new-style amphibious units who have little comparison in modern warfare

- - -

In Berlin, a top-level conference sees the major players in German affairs come together. Kaiser Wilhelm III, Prinz Eitel Friedrich, Prinz Oskar, Chancellor Furst Bismarck, Foreign Minister Furst Tirpitz, head of the Admiralty Prinz Waldemar, and head of the Luftsteitkrafte Hugo Sperrle meet with their aides and advisors. Prinz Eitel Friderich is now head of the General Staff, a deserved position given his wartime experience. Prinz Oskar commands the German Home Army.

The talks are wide-ranging, and include the whole question of Weltpolitik versus European dominance. With the USA clearly dominant in naval affairs, can the Kaiserliche Marine hope to ever challenge it or should it be accepted that America will dominate where it wants to ? Prinz Waldemar argues forcibly that Germany has the financial and industrial strength to match the Americans, whilst his cousin Prinz Eitel Friedrich argues forcibly that war with the USA would spell the end of Germany's global ambitions, whereas playing the new version of the Great Game may gain less than they hope, but the USA cannot be everywhere everytime and Germany will win more than it loses

Attention is turned to armaments. The new Heinkel jet fighters, of which less than 100 are yet in service, are clearly seen as the wave of the future. Heinkel has invested heavily personally in the project and the new factories should be supported by the administration. Heinke's ambitions to buy out the Zeppelin works should also be supported, it is decided, and his company developed as a centre of German technological excellence

The success of the Tiger II tank at Madrid has created another ripple in Berlin. Prinz Eitel Friedrich proposes that it be rolled out to all army commands and though the cost of this is extensive, it is agreed that only those where it would be irrelevant (such as the 3 African colonies) should be excepted

In naval affairs, Prinz Waldemar argues for a new development in submarines, the so-called elektroboote and receives backing to develop a 20-strong force for the Atlantic command

The main naval discussion, though, is on comparitive strength with the USA. Although 14 new battleships are building, and 10 old ones being rebuilt, the USA has a programme for 40 such vessels, a replacement programme and enough industrial might to always outbuild Germany. Prinz Waldemar argues that the USA would lack the political will to do the latter, but Furst Bismarck points out that the German public would also be wary of any massive battleship programme

Spoken underneath all this is the worry that the battleship may not be as important as current naval dogma has it. Although, during the Second World War aircraft carriers only played a support role to the battleship, what they were able to achieve at Second Dogger indicates where their capabilities might go. In addition, aircraft carriers clearly have a useful secondary role whatever happens, whereas a redundant battleship is much less useful

Admitted to the conference, Admiral Rolf Carls, recently promoted commander of all existing aircraft carriers upon his return from German East Afrika, argues for a massive expansion in German fleet carriers. Furst Bismarck allows that the money exists if it needs to be spent, whilst Prinz Eitel Friedrich is in favour of the idea, believing that aircraft, whether on land or at sea, can decisively turn an engagement

With 14 battleships building, German Navy yards from Emden to Reval are in full use. Heavy cruisers and the existing smallscale carrier plan take up most of the other slips. Several of the battleships will complete in the Spring-Summer, whilst additional slips can be made available at other yards by early launching of less urgent projects

In addition, Berlin can easily secure building contracts at a number of foreign yards. The question is one of precognition on the one hand, and of a willingness to spend on the other. Prinz Waldemar argues that if all existing battleships are retained and new building completed, Germany will have around a score of such vessels, of which perhaps 15 would match US contemporaries. He argues that such a fleet would make Germany pre-eminent in Europe, allow it to challenge the US battleline in the Atlantic (on the premise that the US must split its 40 battleships between both oceans) and is the theoretical maximum for minimum expenditure

It is accepted that even if Britain can find the funds for new construction, it could not increase its battleship strength beyond a dozen, that France will be lucky to reach five or six in its new construction programme, that neither Italy nor Austria are going to increase their strength, and that whilst the Ottoman Empire has just ordered four new vessels this neither boosts their navy to comparable status nor on the evidence of 20 years provides any threat to world peace

Sweden continues to add to its fleet, but the new four under construction are mainly for coastal defence, have little range and are compact quality vessels that Germany need not fear unless it plans to attack Sweden. Finland's 2 new light battleships also make little difference, whilst Russia's plan to construct 2 new full size full powered battleships in the Baltic is seen as little more than a gesture from Moscow

Having gone round and round the arguments, the conference decides to proceed with a radical plan proposed by Prinz Waldemar, but seconded by both Eitel Friedrich and Hugo Sperrle.


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I take your point that Legitimism was destroyed by OTL's WW1, but I have a hard time believing that if it hadn't been, it would have not only sustained itself in those areas in which it was dominant, but actually spread to other areas as well. It was an ideology which was on the wrong side of history.

I think France, for one, was pretty much going to be eternally republican by the turn of the century. Monarchy just wouldn't have washed anymore. I'd like to see a bit more continuing domestic unrest in these places. Communist undergrounds etc.

Anyway, good TL.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I take your point that Legitimism was destroyed by OTL's WW1, but I have a hard time believing that if it hadn't been, it would have not only sustained itself in those areas in which it was dominant, but actually spread to other areas as well. It was an ideology which was on the wrong side of history.

I think France, for one, was pretty much going to be eternally republican by the turn of the century. Monarchy just wouldn't have washed anymore. I'd like to see a bit more continuing domestic unrest in these places. Communist undergrounds etc.

Anyway, good TL.

Well, there was Action Francaise and the Orleanists in OTL

But you may have had a point, EXCEPT that the Orleanists in this timeline basically won because Germany jumped in to support them.

Its not so cut-and-dried as France loses in 1918, Restoration comes along. There was the struggling along in the 1920s, then a series of military coups on the one hand and Socialist uprisings etc that presaged a descent into civil war.

Without British intervention the Bonapartists were dead - in a way this explained why the British jumped in when they did, because if they ended up at war with Germany over Australia a few months down the line they would have had NO European land front to confront them on.

The Socialists in the SW are still formidable but knew that after Britain made peace an accommodation with the king in Paris was the only realistic alternative. They got autonomy for Bearn and inclusion in cabinet.


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It is 1940, three years and some months since the end of the Second World War and three years into the term of President Vandenberg in the White House. Kaiser Wilhelm III reigns within Germany, the Reichstag dominated by a coalition of Conservative elements under the Chancellor, Furst Bismarck.[...]

The "state of the World in 1940" is most helpful but maybe you could write a paragraph or two about mayor events up to 1940 - it would double up as a summary and a wiki entry.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
The "state of the World in 1940" is most helpful but maybe you could write a paragraph or two about mayor events up to 1940 - it would double up as a summary and a wiki entry.

I will endeavour to give it a go tonight. Not sure what you mean about as a wiki entry ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
India

I could see more educated and well off Indians emigrate to Canada and all other parts of the world. You may even see some separation between Hindus and Muslims especially in Bengal.

Tech and Tactics
With the development of amphibious units and jet combat you may see many militaries develop new tactics using combined arms.

You may also want to cover what is happening in movies and society in this more peaceful world.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/offtopic/complete_works_of_grey_wolf

As of now there is no mention of your timeline in the wiki. When you write a summary you could repost it as a wiki article.

Ah, I see what you mean! I keep forgetting that that is there...

I see that the existing ones don't exactly go to any summaries either... I wonder if I could write a summary for AFOE that could then have other pages hang off it ?

As for this timeline, I never even thought about putting it in there, but yes I suppose I certainly could...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Great stuff, GW. The overview of present events is most helpful, particularly with regard to the Ottomans and China.

I would note, as a minor quibble, that US presidential elections didn't really include full-blown primary cycles until at least 1948 and really 1968. Binding primaries began as early as 1908, but didn't really begin to impact who got the nomination until much later. It's the convention who really decides the nominee. However, this shouldn't affect matters in the USA too much since the relative chaos in the Democratic party probably means that the likely candidates are eager to make a name for themselves.

BTW, just to be sure, did FDR get polio in TTL?

On the question of the proliferation of strong monarchies: I wouldn't really call this Legitimism per se. Indeed, the current proliferation of monarchies in TTL stems either from the preservation of states who were monarchies OTL due to their victory in war or from the defeat of democratic states and the destabilization of their politics. The later is a trend very much evidenced by Europe in TTL's 1930s and 1940s, with both Hitler and Mussolini decrying democracy itself. Furthermore, it seems to me that among these monarchies there's a great variety of ruling styles. Germany and Russia while autocratic aren't the out-and-out quasi-totalitarian / facist "Personal Rule" of Britain and Itlay. As shown in the post above, German bureacrats and military personnel have differing views, requiring discussion and deliberation. Russia seems to work in a similar vein, though without the strong influence of the Reichstag, dynastic politics seem much more important to the Tsar and his military advisors. Austria, on the other hand, seems very different, with its federal system probably meaning slightly more power for parliamentary bodies. As GW noted, this means that the Quadruple Monarchy has quite a chance to develop the economic potential of the upper Balkans.

Other than these examples, states like Egypt and Burmah aren't really deviating too much from OTL's record. Indeed, the dissolution of the British Empire has probably increased (or left constant) the number of republics with the addition of Canada, the USSA, and Australia - though I must admit the distincition between the former dominion governments and the new republican one is pretty much just a matter of name. However, China for one has importantly resisted a decline into complete totalitarianism (or anarchy), though I suppose the persistence of the Republic doesn't guarantee the integrity of its democratic procedures.

Also, on the question of Indian Emigration, wouldn't the free movement of refugee Indians be hindered without the British Empire? TTL Canada, Australia, and East Africa are all different countries. The Nationalists in Australia seem to have been the same folks as OTL responsible for White Australia; it's no guarantee they see the wisdom in letting immigrants in to help rebuild rather than trying to preserve what gains they have for "real Australians." I can't imagine Edward VIII's Britain is too keen on clouding the demographics of East Africa (further) with the addition of people who have so markedly broken from Britain. Canada seems most likely to be accepting of some imigrants, but again the lack of the shared Empire may provide just enough of a logistical hurdle to allow for implicit prejudice to take hold. I wonder if New Zealand might be amenable, though.
 
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Grey Wolf

Donor
Great stuff, GW. The overview of present events is most helpful, particularly with regard to the Ottomans and China.

I would note, as a minor quibble, that US presidential elections didn't really include full-blown primary cycles until at least 1948 and really 1968. Binding primaries began as early as 1908, but didn't really begin to impact who got the nomination until much later. It's the convention who really decides the nominee. However, this shouldn't affect matters in the USA too much since the relative chaos in the Democratic party probably means that the likely candidates are eager to make a name for themselves.

BTW, just to be sure, did FDR get polio in TTL?

Ah right on the primaries, but yes I guess with the Democrats needing to beat off a potential Socialist threat to their votes they could well start early to make as big an impresssion as possible

Whilst FDR's polio is butterflyable-away, I decided to keep it. It never prevented him from presenting a vigorous face though, but I do see what you might be implying with regard to both someone using it against him, and the rigours of the new campaign. Still, it just feels in his character to make this move

Nicomacheus said:
On the question of the proliferation of strong monarchies: I wouldn't really call this Legitimism per se. Indeed, the current proliferation of monarchies in TTL stems either from the preservation of states who were monarchies OTL due to their victory in war or from the defeat of democratic states and the destabilization of their politics. The later is a trend very much evidenced by Europe in TTL's 1930s and 1940s, with both Hitler and Mussolini decrying democracy itself. Furthermore, it seems to me that among these monarchies there's a great variety of ruling styles. Germany and Russia while autocratic aren't the out-and-out quasi-totalitarian / facist "Personal Rule" of Britain and Itlay. As shown in the post above, German bureacrats and military personnel have differing views, requiring discussion and deliberation. Russia seems to work in a similar vein, though without the strong influence of the Reichstag, dynastic politics seem much more important to the Tsar and his military advisors. Austria, on the other hand, seems very different, with its federal system probably meaning slightly more power for parliamentary bodies. As GW noted, this means that the Quadruple Monarchy has quite a chance to develop the economic potential of the upper Balkans.

Other than these examples, states like Egypt and Burmah aren't really deviating too much from OTL's record. Indeed, the dissolution of the British Empire has probably increased (or left constant) the number of republics with the addition of Canada, the USSA, and Australia - though I must admit the distincition between the former dominion governments and the new republican one is pretty much just a matter of name. However, China for one has importantly resisted a decline into complete totalitarianism (or anarchy), though I suppose the persistence of the Republic doesn't guarantee the integrity of its democratic procedures.

Definitely true on all aspects. I could probably write a post on systems of governance. It also needs to be noted that countries like Belgium, Holland and the Scandinavian nations are all monarchies but constitutional, parliamentary ones.

Of the new ex-British republics, the USSA probably sees the biggest change from its dominion government make-up to its new republican constitution, simply through adopting the United States model of federalism (perhaps as per the US of Brazil rather than the US of America ?)

Nicomacheus said:
Also, on the question of Indian Emigration, wouldn't the free movement of refugee Indians be hindered without the British Empire? TTL Canada, Australia, and East Africa are all different countries. The Nationalists in Australia seem to have been the same folks as OTL responsible for White Australia; it's no guarantee they see the wisdom in letting immigrants in to help rebuild rather than trying to preserve what gains they have for "real Australians." I can't imagine Edward VIII's Britain is too keen on clouding the demographics of East Africa (further) with the addition of people who have so markedly broken from Britain. Canada seems most likely to be accepting of some imigrants, but again the lack of the shared Empire may provide just enough of a logistical hurdle to allow for implicit prejudice to take hold. I wonder if New Zealand might be amenable, though.

Its certainly a point that most won't BE ABLE to go anywhere without invitation. And that yes, quite possibly a strong section of Australian politics wouldn't want them. Canada might not have any particular use for them, or maybe it does ? It may well be experiencing something of an economic boom, and if emigration from Britain is now more difficult it may accept skilled immigrants from India

Quite possibly the USA would too ? I don't know what its immigration policies were OTL, but the number of Koreans in California seems to imply that during the Korean War it accepted significant numbers of refugees from Korea. Maybe therefore the US would welcome Indians, perhaps to balance out the number of Japanese-origin immigrants in Hawaii and California ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The later is a trend very much evidenced by Europe in TTL's 1930s and 1940s, with both Hitler and Mussolini decrying democracy itself.

This is not really true in repect of it's similarity to Legitimism, since Mussolini and Hitler both went to the greatest extent to cloak their actions in popular legitimacy and the notion of being 'close' to the people; referenda (however rigged), the mass party, rallies, etc. Even out-and-out conservatives/reactionaries like Horthy felt the need to provide some kind of popular particpatory image to uphold their rules. No-one - and I mean no-one - in Europe in the inter-war period goverened purely without at least a token doffing of the hat to some kind of popular legitimacy. (a party behind them, representative insitutions, etc) You'd get the same sort of thing here, (and I think Grey Wolf had alluded to this at some points) even where representative democracy has been put totally on the peripheries.
 
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Ah right on the primaries, but yes I guess with the Democrats needing to beat off a potential Socialist threat to their votes they could well start early to make as big an impresssion as possible

Whilst FDR's polio is butterflyable-away, I decided to keep it. It never prevented him from presenting a vigorous face though, but I do see what you might be implying with regard to both someone using it against him, and the rigours of the new campaign. Still, it just feels in his character to make this move

I was more concerned about his health. Without the polio, he's getting on in 1940. With the polio, it might be worse.

Definitely true on all aspects. I could probably write a post on systems of governance. It also needs to be noted that countries like Belgium, Holland and the Scandinavian nations are all monarchies but constitutional, parliamentary ones.

Of the new ex-British republics, the USSA probably sees the biggest change from its dominion government make-up to its new republican constitution, simply through adopting the United States model of federalism (perhaps as per the US of Brazil rather than the US of America ?)

From my understanding, Brazil's president has more unilateral authority: whereas the US president can veto laws, the Brazilian president can issue decress that go into effect for set periods of time (1 yr I think) and can become permament. This power is undermined because of the multiple party system in Brazil.

Even if they adopted a constitution very similar to the USA's, I'd imagine the leader of the majority of Congress (or the lower house) might end up being more influential due to the expereince of parliamentary government. However, they probably resist a full on semi-presidential system as TTL's Canada seems to have. It may however a system with aspects of France's Presidency -- a semi-presidential system in which the president has most of the power, rather than a parliamentary system with a ceremonial president (as in Germany and Ireland and Israel and TTL Canada).


Its certainly a point that most won't BE ABLE to go anywhere without invitation. And that yes, quite possibly a strong section of Australian politics wouldn't want them. Canada might not have any particular use for them, or maybe it does ? It may well be experiencing something of an economic boom, and if emigration from Britain is now more difficult it may accept skilled immigrants from India

Quite possibly the USA would too ? I don't know what its immigration policies were OTL, but the number of Koreans in California seems to imply that during the Korean War it accepted significant numbers of refugees from Korea. Maybe therefore the US would welcome Indians, perhaps to balance out the number of Japanese-origin immigrants in Hawaii and California ?

OTL the key to greater Asian immigration to the US was the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which abolished the quota system put in place in the 1920s. I can't really see a reason that TTL USA doesn't have such a system in the 1920s, though by 1936 things may be changing. JFK and LBJ supported the measure in part because it was a way of affirming US idealistic foreign policy: standing for liberty, etc. Hoover may present such a scheme to Vandenberg; the Republicans probably have an easier chance of passing an earlier version, since they don't have to appeal to unions or Southerns.
 
This is not really true, since Mussolini and Hitler both went to the greatest extent to cloak their actions in popular legitimacy and the notion of being 'close' to the people; referenda (however rigged), the mass party, rallies, etc. Even out-and-out conservatives/reactionaries like Horthy felt the need to provide some kind of popular particpatory image to uphold their rules. No-one - and I mean no-one - in Europe in the inter-war period goverened purely without at least a token doffing of the hat to some kind of popular legitimacy. (a party behind them, representative insitutions, etc) You'd get the same sort of thing here, (and I think Grey Wolf had alluded to this at some points) even where representative democracy has been put totally on the peripheries.

Both had mass ralies but both thought that the liberal democracies of their day were weak and morally bankrupt. The rise of both communism and facism in the 1920s and 1930s was seen as an ideological challenge to constitutional liberal government. Citizens of the liberal democracies themselves feared that the challenges of OTL 1930s would undermine democracy everywhere.

Plus, it seems to me that all the monarchic states in GW's TL have at least some of democratic trappings you mention.

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Your edit does make a crucial distinction: that Legitimist rulers wouldn't have any pretense of democratic rule. However, I'd reinforce my last point, that most of the rulers seem at least to have a pretense of a parliamentary system (Britain and Russia); in some it's more substantial power sharing (Germany).
 
Legitimism

As I've said before an Orleanist France is going to try to become a Catholic confessional state. You could see things like people being prosecuted for blasphemy. Or adultery. And of course sodomy, even the hetero variety. Imagine people like the mayor in the film Le Chocolat running everything. They are going to be paranoid about Freemasons and Jews (most of them still think Dreyfuss was guilty). This should not degrade into totalitarianism but it will drift towards moralistic authoritarianism. This is going to add a layer of discontent that goes beyond mere Republicanism.
 
Excellent TL you've got going here. Keep it up!
A few notes from my perspective:
We're getting into serious technological revolution
territory here. TTL's World Wars have been less destructive
and draining of manpower, so we should be some distance
ahead of OTL technology, which we see in jet engines,
and will probably be felt next in radar, sonar, and TV.
So who's doing what in nuclear physics? You've given yourself
wide lattitude as to how and when the world goes nuclear.
US, UK, and Gearmany are all plausible early nucler powers,
though with no major wars you might even hold off until
the early 50's with the first tests. Russia I would not
guess as having the scientific expertise or economic base
for a Manhattan Project for another 10 years, Australia not
until the 60's though uranium sales to Germany will go
some distance toward financing the necessary growth.
Not sure how to gauge Japan. They supported the FEW in the
Second World War, but didn't seem to lose as many men as
in OTL China. Not being controlled by reckless militarists
here, a Pacific War is avoidable - perhaps many of the
Kwantung Army people found glorious death in battle in
the FER.
As to the US...I am of the school of thought that emphasizes
generational character, with the US being in a "crisis
constellation" since 1930, ready to do big things and make
big sacrifices. This could easily have meant jumping into
WWII, but you've chosen to give us less cannier and less
aggressive leaders so far, so we've managed to avoid it.
Not sure if it would be plausible to go much longer without
a major war, though.
I suppose in this decade we really go off the rails, with
so many dead OTL people being alive we can't say anything for
sure about what happens. Eagerly anticipating more...

EJH
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
traveller76 said:
I could see more educated and well off Indians emigrate to Canada and all other parts of the world. You may even see some separation between Hindus and Muslims especially in Bengal.

Tech and Tactics
With the development of amphibious units and jet combat you may see many militaries develop new tactics using combined arms.

You may also want to cover what is happening in movies and society in this more peaceful world.

I think you are probably right on both of the first points as regards India - Canada IMHO could use an influx of skilled people in its economic boom, whilst the fighting in Bengal is already beginning to see a Hindu/Muslim split, with Calcutta remaining under Delhi's control, but Dacca the home of the breakaway proto-state

It would be curious if the Russians proved to be the nation to best combine jet aircraft and amphibious units !

Not entirely sure why you say it is a more peaceful world ? rue, its 1940 and there's not a global war on, but that's because they've already had the Second one ! I guess for the USA it might seem more peaceful, but even then compared to OTL they've had the same amount of post-1918 peace.
However, its an interesting suggestion and I might do a bit of thinking on it ! There would be a lot less German movie stars in Hollywood for a start !

Best Regards
Gery Wolf
 
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