A Day in July: An Early 20th Century Timeline

[Zulfurium]

Is the gradual decline of the global influence of the British Empire ITTL comparable in size and scale etc. to the decline and eventual downfall/dissolution of the Spanish Empire in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries?

Furthermore, are the Victorian and Edwardian eras in Britain looked back on fondly as some sort of a Golden Age domestically?

If anything, I would think the British Empire's decline is happening at light-speed compared to the Spanish Empire. But as far as size and scale, that is perhaps a fitting scale - though a lot will depend on how things play out in Africa. The main issue at this point rests with the increasingly troubled relationship between Britain and its Dominions. Canada is distancing itself, Australia is at once terrified by the growth of Japanese power and furious at the British squandering of the Dominion Fleet, New Zealand is turning inward as it goes into a downward paranoid spiral, South Africa has always been independently minded and is only growing more so while India is just about set to explode. The African colonies have been ravaged by the wave of famines during the early 1930s, but still lack the sort of cohesive social and national force necessary to pull free of the British, but when we get into the 1940s and 1950s, that is likely to change significantly. Whether the British can keep hold through such developments will be one of the things that will be fun but so fucking difficult to research for.

I mean weren't they (Victorian-Edwardian Eras) looked upon like that IOTL until well after the Second World War? Nostalgia for the pre-Great War era is a staple of most conservative movements around the world ITTL, though not all.

 

[Gabingston]

What is the demographic situation in Europe currently? You'd mentioned a crash in birth rates in Germany after the war and an early sexual revolution happening in the 1920s, so I'm wondering how far it's fallen, and how widespread the decline is across Europe? Some European countries fell below replacement level in the Great Depression IOTL.

 

[Zulfurium]

What is the demographic situation in Europe currently? You'd mentioned a crash in birth rates in Germany after the war and an early sexual revolution happening in the 1920s, so I'm wondering how far it's fallen, and how widespread the decline is across Europe? Some European countries fell below replacement level in the Great Depression IOTL.

While I doubt it gets anywhere near the levels of the Great Depression, there is a general reduction of birth rates across Europe during the first half of the 1920s, but a variety of policies and efforts, particularly with the rise of eugenics programmes aimed at addressing that particular issue, serves to alleviate the dip somewhat so that by the middle of the 1930s there is a general trend towards increased birth rates in much of Europe. This isn't a topic I have read up on in any significant detail, so as ever with these things it is subject to changes within updates.

 

[Zulfurium]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Now I am sorry to say that I don't have an update for the timeline, but I thought some of you might appreciate an update on where things stand with the hiatus.

As I have mentioned in the past, I am currently working on a novel set in a fictional world which I have spent years slowly developing. The plan is a 45-chapter work with prologue, epilogue and interludes every five chapters from an alternate PoV. It is split into two major arcs of which I am just about finished writing the first of these. In total I have written a bit north of 260 pages across 17 chapters, three interludes and a prologue. I want to finish out the first arc (meaning up to and including chapter 20 and the fourth interlude) before I take some time for a couple features in the ADiJ world. I won't be ending the hiatus and working on main updates, but fleshing out a couple characters and exploring a couple topics from the period we have already covered.

I am not quite sure when I will be ready to post anything, but that is the plan.

I hope everyone has a fantastic last day of the year and wish you all the best in the coming year!

Z

 

[LordCalner]

Have a happy new year and good luck with your novel!

 

[Asherterix]

How democratic are the various socialist states? On a scale from Stalin to literal Anarchy how do the assorted nations in general fare as well?

 

[Zulfurium]

How democratic are the various socialist states? On a scale from Stalin to literal Anarchy how do the assorted nations in general fare as well?

I think I have addressed this before, but every country is unique and has its own peculiarities. None are at the Stalinist level of democratic repression, but none are what you could consider particularly democratic. I would consider the Italian Republic the most democratic, with the people's representatives having the greatest amount of apparent power, though in reality they are little more than an advisory body. I would put the Soviet Republic somewhere in the middle, its councils and parliamentary bodies do hold a lot of sway and influence on events at a sub-national level, but the moment you start touching on national affairs it falls entirely into the hands of the Central Committee. It is a bit funny, I actually think the Shogunate's representative bodies are the ones with the greatest degree of actual power and influence over state affairs, but at the same time they are the most legalistically limited in scope - the entire structure is segmented into a byzantine sequence of councils and assemblies who hold a great deal of power and influence within their area of expertise, but the moment you start dealing with anything beyond those areas they are entirely cut out.

So to answer, they are somewhere in the middle, with a varying range depending on whether you consider de facto or de jure power, national or regional, broad or narrow. It changes from state to state.

Hope that answers your question. I think I made a much more detailed reply earlier in the thread, but I can't quite remember when or where, so you can look for that if this is insufficient.

 

[Asherterix]

No, thats great thank you. I'll have a look. I also wanted to say, amazing job on the TL! I'm new to all this, but even I can tell the level of detail you put into every one of your posts is incredible. I don't know how you keep all the info straight.

 

[Zulfurium]

No, thats great thank you. I'll have a look. I also wanted to say, amazing job on the TL! I'm new to all this, but even I can tell the level of detail you put into every one of your posts is incredible. I don't know how you keep all the info straight.

Thank you for the kind words. I would like to think I am pretty good at collecting, organizing and passing on a large amount of information in fun and interesting ways, but I will be honest and say that I struggle to keep it all straight myself.

When I write an update I try to go back and dig out the last couple updates where I wrote about the topic in question so that I can constantly refer back to it. I then consider how events would proceed from where I left off and combine that with whatever new element I think would be interesting in the given context. Sometimes I go back further into the backlog to dig out details to expand and build on, but a lot of it is built on and added from inspiration I find in books, shows and particularly wikipages on the topic.

I tend to shuffle through about a dozen different language wikis in that regard as well, because it is shocking how much information suddenly turns up when you look for info on Argentina in Spanish or Brazil in Portuguese. Luckily translation tools are becoming good enough that it is possible to parse translated texts most of the time (though I must admit, Chinese and for some reason particularly Korean translated by machine is often near incomprehensible because of the differences in syntax and the way in which people are referred to - royals are almost always referenced as palace of XX, which makes it particularly difficult). A good deal of the time I also have to go back and search through my own work to check if I am remembering events correctly, whether I might have killed off a character I now want to use etc.

It is honestly a fun task in its own way, as long as I have the energy and patience to deal with it at least.

If you are new to althistory, then I welcome you, hope this was a good starting point

 

[Asherterix]

Actually, do you have any recommendations?

 

[Asherterix]

Let's go one layer deeper into alt-history here: What if the anarchists gained power in the PRI instead of the socialists?

 

[Zulfurium]

Let's go one layer deeper into alt-history here: What if the anarchists gained power in the PRI instead of the socialists?

Depends greatly on when we are talking about. The Anarchists were the more radical wing in a lot of ways with the Italian left-wing ITTL, and were unable to expand their support beyond their heartland of Veneto on anything like the scale of the Socialists. Any attempt on power within the party structures post-civil war would likely have met with intense resistance from particularly Bordiga’s wing of the party, but generally from across the socialist spectrum as well. So most likely some sort of coup, purge or civil war would ensue.

As mentioned, during the civil war they never quite were able to secure the same sort of broad backing as the socialists and with the loss of Veneto were pretty much forced into subordination, from which I think it very hard for them to break free.

If we go further back to the start of the civil war and imagine a situation in which Venice is not crushed, that is where we might see a chance for Anarchist power to really unfold itself, but even in this scenario I think the most likely outcome is that with the revolutionaries split between socialist and anarchist factions the Royalists are likely to win out. But, let us assume a revolutionary victory at least in the northern half of Italy, I would imagine we could get something like an anarcho-syndicalist commune based around Venice with the Savoy-Lombardy-Tuscany Socialist state in some sort of confederation.

That would make for a potentially fascinating divergence, but it is hard to say what exactly the shape of such a commune would look like. Would probably model it largely around the Anarchists of Barcelona/Catalan region from the Spanish Civil War, but with significant alterations to account for the changes in time, location and altered history.

 

[the Imperium of Canada]

I guess I should throw in my own alternate history of an alternate history question, suppose those french anarchist who were plotting a uprising somehow successfully bring an anarchist revolution to France?

 

[Zulfurium]

I guess I should throw in my own alternate history of an alternate history question, suppose those french anarchist who were plotting a uprising somehow successfully bring an anarchist revolution to France?

Ah damn, I had missed your message.

Honestly? I don't think the Anarchist movement had anything like the unity or cohesion to pull off something like that. With the Italians, there were regionalist factors which played into it equally, but with the french anarchists they are mixed in with the workers of the north-east more generally and in the heartland of French governmental power. I don't think they would be able to muster any support from the south or west of the country, which would back whatever reactionary effort emerged to crush the incipient revolutionaries, and the anarchist cause would need to make massive, likely unacceptable, compromises to their programme to gain adherents from the rest of the left and more generally across the political spectrum. Particularly considering the moment in time, at the very climax of the Great War, it seems far more likely we would have the allies united in suppressing any such revolt, controversial though it may be, and the Germans likely willing to back off now that the French had cracked.

 

[Capbeetle61]

Ah damn, I had missed your message.

Honestly? I don't think the Anarchist movement had anything like the unity or cohesion to pull off something like that. With the Italians, there were regionalist factors which played into it equally, but with the french anarchists they are mixed in with the workers of the north-east more generally and in the heartland of French governmental power. I don't think they would be able to muster any support from the south or west of the country, which would back whatever reactionary effort emerged to crush the incipient revolutionaries, and the anarchist cause would need to make massive, likely unacceptable, compromises to their programme to gain adherents from the rest of the left and more generally across the political spectrum. Particularly considering the moment in time, at the very climax of the Great War, it seems far more likely we would have the allies united in suppressing any such revolt, controversial though it may be, and the Germans likely willing to back off now that the French had cracked.

What if the Petrograd Whites had marched on and captured Moscow in 1919?

 

[Kylia]

Given how terrible the management of the Petrograd whites was, I don't see how that happens or lasts if it does?

 

[Capbeetle61]

Given how terrible the management of the Petrograd whites was, I don't see how that happens or lasts if it does?

Perhaps a The Lord of the Rings-style The Return of the Tsar is on the cards?

 

[Zulfurium]

What if the Petrograd Whites had marched on and captured Moscow in 1919?

Given how terrible the management of the Petrograd whites was, I don't see how that happens or lasts if it does?

Perhaps a The Lord of the Rings-style The Return of the Tsar is on the cards?

Realize I won't get an answer here, but to reply IIRC the Petrograd Whites did march on Moscow and ended up stalled out. Of course, if the Whites win that conflict and Moscow falls then everything is suddenly up in the air. I don't think the Yekaterinburg Reds are able to hold out long-term in that case, and we transition from a Red-White war to a conflict between various factions of Whites. Who wins that one, I don't know, but regardless the civil war will continue to roll ever onwards. We likely end up with some sort of new fractures within the existing White factions - particularly the Don Whites seem like a prime candidate for fracturing given their mish-mash of factions, while the Petrograd Whites, likely prove a lot more cohesive. I do wonder how long Kornilov would remain at the top, think it wouldn't take much for the daggers to be sharpened. Could end up with a series of intrigues and powerstruggles at the top between Kornilov's supporters and successor generals and the political faction behind Savinkov and his ilk.

 

[Radek]

OTL, the 1920s and 30s were the golden age of what would become known as detective noir. Would they still be that here, or have the changed events - particularly the prolonged war - altered that?

Dashiel Hammett did serve in France OTL, if seemingly rather briefly. Another author, Raymond Chandler, enlisted already in 1917 in the TTL ill-fated Canadian Expeditionary Force.

With the war dragging on with seemingly no end in sight, would Hammett perhaps have recovered quickly enough to return to France? What may that have done to him?

If Chandler survived the events that befell the CEF in Belgium - broke out, was captured, wounded or not, was elsewhere at the time - what then? Or maybe he actually completes the pilot training, would he stay in service after the war or try his luck as a civilian?

 

[Zulfurium]

OTL, the 1920s and 30s were the golden age of what would become known as detective noir. Would they still be that here, or have the changed events - particularly the prolonged war - altered that?

Dashiel Hammett did serve in France OTL, if seemingly rather briefly. Another author, Raymond Chandler, enlisted already in 1917 in the TTL ill-fated Canadian Expeditionary Force.

With the war dragging on with seemingly no end in sight, would Hammett perhaps have recovered quickly enough to return to France? What may that have done to him?

If Chandler survived the events that befell the CEF in Belgium - broke out, was captured, wounded or not, was elsewhere at the time - what then? Or maybe he actually completes the pilot training, would he stay in service after the war or try his luck as a civilian?

Honestly, not really a genre or writers I am particularly well versed in so I don't really know what would be the best way forward. Any of the possible developments you describe could have happened, though I do think it would be a shame for either to get killed off. As ever, I am open to suggestions.

Regarding detective noir, @Ombra and I spent a good deal of time playing around with the idea of TTL Trieste as the setting for a genre of European-oriented crime noir stories involving Mafia smugglers, Italian exiles, Italian reds, German industrialists and Russian emigres, Hungarian starlets and the like. Basically the city is a major cross road with a ton of different aspects - a booming movie industry (German studios using the area for their more mediterranean sets), an intensely busy entry port to the Zollverein, cross-border trade with the Italian Reds, White Russian and later Trotskyite Reds settling in the region and a highly active, international criminal scene.